Gabriels 10 Ft Pool Table

realkingcobra said:
As fast as top level, and I seriously mean the top of the food chain pool table mechanics out here, that list really comes down to Mark Gregory and myself. I'm not taking anything away from anyone else that works on pool tables, so don't anyone miss understand what I'm saying. Of everyone that works on pool tables in this country, the two of use are the only ones working on pool tables that would never say "that's good enough" and call the job done. We both are always looking for how to make a pool table play better, with one big difference. Mark is looking to recreate how his tables play, to play like they did in the 70s' and 80s' when we were growing up playing pool, which means a little slower playing tables. Mark and I talk about this all the time, but Mark is old school, and hard-headed, but not in a bad way. I on the other hand do realize the pool world has changed, and so have the demands of the players. Simonis has been around for over 300 years, but not on pool tables. I pioneered Simonis cloth on the pool tables in the bars in Washington state for the first time back in the early 80s'. Cloth has changed, balls have changed, cushions have changed....everything about this industry has changed, including the players. The days of old school pool tables, requiring a huge stroke to move the cue ball around the table table is over, but some players just can't accept the fact that pool is evolving forward, not backward. Tables today play faster because the cushions are better, the cloth is better, hell' even the tips on cues today are better. What people, and table mechanics fail to understand today, is that the pockets on tournament used tables today have gotten tighter and tighter, making that monster stroke of yesterday....obsolete. Finesse is taking its place today in order to pocket balls, because of faster tables, and pockets that don't play right. So, there has to be a balance in how a table plays, in order for it to play right. Slow cushions, fast playing surface...bad combination. Lighting fast rails, slow playing surface....bad combination. Rails that blend the speed of the cushions with the speed of the playing surface....that's the correct combination for today's players. The ability to drift a ball into a pocket that would never go if shot harder, that's called cheating to pocket on today's tables with tighter pockets....that's a table that plays right. Balls fired into the center of the pockets and stay down....that's a table that plays right today. Bank shots that can be made today, that would have never gone on the tables of old...is a table that plays right today.
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Very well said. As I stated before, thank you for your work and efforts, and especially for sharing your views and knowledge on this forum. Now if we can just get Mark Gregory's opinion on Klebatch rubber, and does it suit tables in the 70's, 80s tradition the way he prefers.
 
Cardigan Kid said:
Very well said. As I stated before, thank you for your work and efforts, and especially for sharing your views and knowledge on this forum. Now if we can just get Mark Gregory's opinion on Klebatch rubber, and does it suit tables in the 70's, 80s tradition the way he prefers.
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I can tell you Marks opinion on Klematch cushions, he don't use them on pool tables. His first choice of cushions on pool tables is Brunswick super speed, followed by Artemis intercontinental K55' cushions as he don't use or install any other cushions on Brunswick or Diamond 9ft pool tables.
 
One other thing to consider. There is no such thing as speed cushion, as the cushions don't control the speed of the rails, the design of the rails is what determines how the cushions are going to play. Dr Dave's theory on cushion playability is without full merit, because any cushions he determines to play fast or slow, I can either speed up or slow down by redesigning the sub-rails....LOL
 
realkingcobra said:
As fast as top level, and I seriously mean the top of the food chain pool table mechanics out here, that list really comes down to Mark Gregory and myself. I'm not taking anything away from anyone else that works on pool tables, so don't anyone miss understand what I'm saying. Of everyone that works on pool tables in this country, the two of use are the only ones working on pool tables that would never say "that's good enough" and call the job done....
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Yeah -- you're not taking anything away from anyone else that works on pool tables.

There's only two guys in the entire country that take pride in their work huh?

Right.
 
BasementDweller said:
Yeah -- you're not taking anything away from anyone else that works on pool tables.

There's only two guys in the entire country that take pride in their work huh?

Right.
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Here we go...LOL did I say anything about someone's pride? No, I didnt, but maybe you should post up some of the table work that you do so that others might get a chance to see what YOU do, as I have, Mark has, as well as several others have done. While you're at it, maybe you can find someone that has done work on my level to pool tables, I'd be interested to see just who has;)
 
BasementDweller said:
Yeah -- you're not taking anything away from anyone else that works on pool tables.

There's only two guys in the entire country that take pride in their work huh?

Right.
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Please, let me clarify something that I think you're misunderstanding. There's a world of difference between what a pool table mechanic is and pool table installer. If I had to guess, I'd have to say that about 98% of everyone that works on pool tables fall into the installer level of table mechanics, reason being is that they're the ones who are out installing cloth, moving pool tables, installing cushions, and doing some minor repairs to pool tables, in which they should do as it falls upon them do make them basic repairs as needed to do their job right. They're the ones delivering new pool tables to customers and the whole 9 yards, but...that don't make them pool table mechanics, that's all installer level work believe it or not. A real pool table mechanic can do all of the above AND then even more, like refinish, rebuild, modify, redesign, and otherwise fix all the things done wrong to a pool tables 9 very the life usage of that table. Now the real question YOU need to answer, is how did that pool table get in such bad condition that it takes a real pool table mechanic to fix it back up into top playing condition again? When changing the cloth and cushions isn't enough to get the table to play right....then what do you do?
 
realkingcobra said:
Here we go...LOL did I say anything about someone's pride? No, I didnt, but maybe you should post up some of the table work that you do so that others might get a chance to see what YOU do, as I have, Mark has, as well as several others have done. While you're at it, maybe you can find someone that has done work on my level to pool tables, I'd be interested to see just who has;)
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I'm not a pool table mechanic, I just play one on the internet.

I just find it hard to believe that in all of the United States of America and probably the entire world, and maybe even all of the known universe, there are only two guys that would never say "that's good enough" and call the job done. In the process of patting yourself on the back you are basically taking an unnecessary swipe at a lot of guys that do a very good job when it comes to working on pool tables, whether or not you would classify them as an installer or a mechanic.

I suppose I should be used to it by now since it's par for the course.
 
BasementDweller said:
I'm not a pool table mechanic, I just play one on the internet.

I just find it hard to believe that in all of the United States of America and probably the entire world, and maybe even all of the known universe, there are only two guys that would never say "that's good enough" and call the job done. In the process of patting yourself on the back you are basically taking an unnecessary swipe at a lot of guys that do a very good job when it comes to working on pool tables, whether or not you would classify them as an installer or a mechanic.

I suppose I should be used to it by now since it's par for the course.
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You know what, it is hard to believe isn't it! Maybe when you've actually been working on pool tables for over half your life, in every state in this country, and have actually played on pool tables in other countries you'll be a little wiser. Yes, there are other table mechanics out here working on pool tables, I know as a few of them learned a few things from me along the way. The problem with you, is all you see is new cloth being installed on a pool table, and you think that's what being a pool table mechanic is all about. Like Mark says all the time, just because the balls bounce off the rails, that don't make the table right. I wish you were right though, then maybe I wouldn't have so many people waiting on me all over the country to come and work on their pool tables, because there's no way in hell I could ever get caught up with all the demand. So, do me a favor will you, tell all them pool table mechanics you know personally to step it up a little, and take some of this workload off my back, I could use a break once in a while!!!

Glen
 
realkingcobra said:
You know what, it is hard to believe isn't it! Maybe when you've actually been working on pool tables for over half your life, in every state in this country, and have actually played on pool tables in other countries you'll be a little wiser. Yes, there are other table mechanics out here working on pool tables, I know as a few of them learned a few things from me along the way. The problem with you, is all you see is new cloth being installed on a pool table, and you think that's what being a pool table mechanic is all about. Like Mark says all the time, just because the balls bounce off the rails, that don't make the table right. I wish you were right though, then maybe I wouldn't have so many people waiting on me all over the country to come and work on their pool tables, because there's no way in hell I could ever get caught up with all the demand. So, do me a favor will you, tell all them pool table mechanics you know personally to step it up a little, and take some of this workload off my back, I could use a break once in a while!!!

Glen
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In the years to come, I can see a lot of business for you and the other mechanics who know how to rebuild rails and not just install cloth and rubber.
Diamond tables have set a standard, and there are a ton of private table owners that want that standard for their gold crown of whatever table they have. Instead of buying a diamond table, one could spend a couple grand and get the rails rebuilt. That's a real market, maybe not huge, but there's definitely a demand as you have testified to.

That being said, there are some great mechanics that perform impeccable rebuilds like you and Mark. Im not going to drag other names into your line of fire, but they know you and you know them. I think it would be great for your niche in the industry and the new demand for perfect rails/pockets, if the top mechanics would be more complimentary and supportive of each other. There's definitely enough business to go around.
 
Cardigan Kid said:
In the years to come, I can see a lot of business for you and the other mechanics who know how to rebuild rails and not just install cloth and rubber.
Diamond tables have set a standard, and there are a ton of private table owners that want that standard for their gold crown of whatever table they have. Instead of buying a diamond table, one could spend a couple grand and get the rails rebuilt. That's a real market, maybe not huge, but there's definitely a demand as you have testified to.

That being said, there are some great mechanics that perform impeccable rebuilds like you and Mark. Im not going to drag other names into your line of fire, but they know you and you know them. I think it would be great for your niche in the industry and the new demand for perfect rails/pockets, if the top mechanics would be more complimentary and supportive of each other. There's definitely enough business to go around.
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Anyone that knows me, knows all I've ever wanted in this industry is to raise the bar for other table mechanics to have step up to in order to call themselves pool table mechanics. I've gone out of my way countless times to help anyone asking for advice or help on how to do something, that's what I do. But, I've also insisted that If someone wants to be looked upon as a top tier pool table mechanic, then show their work so that others might see as to either give credit where credit is due, or criticism of the work performed as a way of saying to that person, you still have a ways to go yet to be a top tier mechanic. Because of the work that I and others have shown, potential customers are asking questions now about the kind of work the mechanic does before they get the job. Why, because potential customers know more today than they ever did in the past, because they've seen for themselves the difference between what's right and what's wrong with being a pool table mechanic. For someone, or anyone to think this is all about me, they have no idea who I am, or what I stand for. And just so everyone knows me, I stand for change in this industry, we as a community can not allow the continued erosion of the most basic equipment we need in order to enjoy this game/sport to which we're all so fond of, and that's the pool tables we play on. Without good equipment to play on, this industry will continue its downhill slide as more and more pool rooms close for lack of customers willing to spend their money to play on junk equipment.

Glen
 
Table

Glen is right on all accounts, not many here know what kind of silly shit is ran into on pool tables to try to fix,repair,restore and or cover up shoty work... The table manufactures that make most of the tables in homes today are throw-away tables; meaning you'll have to throw away the table when it gets worn out and buy another because repairing or replacing properly is more costly than buying another throw away. The old tables that need repair are savagely beaten and handicapped from years of bad service.

Glen Hancock,jay Spielberg,ken hash,mark gregory,derrick tiers,john burns and many other names are known to be the best man in their respected areas.
All the names mentioned above are registered users of AZB....why is it that most of them don't post anymore........ If I had the knowledge they do I'd be very fortunate right now owning a private island with naked woman racking my balls on everyone of the 28 tables.


So went glen tells you the Gabriel table is not a winner he is very serious and speaks from experience.

Glen is tough as nails on you guys and he needs to be and for most of you guys that like to argue with him...GOODLUCK'









Rob.M
 
That hypothesis can be played out though. A Valley barbox has 1/2 inch slate and plays far different than a Diamond or GC with 1" slate (not talking about cushions). A Connelly Ultimate with 2" slate, imo, plays even better than the Diamond or GC. The thicker the slate, the easier it is to jump a ball, that's for certain. I've played on 2" granite tables, and they played superior as well.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

iusedtoberich said:
What I mean is there comes a point of diminishing returns. For example a 1" slate may play 25% "better" than a 0.5" slate. But a 2" slate may only play 5% better than a 1" slate.

These are just hypothetical numbers to demonstrate the point.
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I must have missed this thread but I was looking at another Internet site and noticed the SENTINEL pool table by Gabriel. It looks FANTASTIC!

Has anyone played on one yet, especially here in the States and if so, where?

Thanks,
JoeyA

picture.php
 
Why Metric is superior to SAE

fastone371 said:
I personally do not like metric fasteners. Some size bolts have 3 or even 4 different thread pitch measurements. I do not see why fractional sizes are any harder to use or remember than metric. The whole metric thing in the automotive world is a pain in the ass. Some of the American cars have bolts/nuts with metric heads and fractional threads. On American cars the common hex sizes are 10-13-15 & 18. On Asian cars common sizes are 10-12-14 & 17. On European the common sizes can be any combo of the previous. Certain thread diameter & pitch combination metric bolts can be very difficult to find, it can be much easier to cross thread a metric fastener due to this. For the most part fractional sizes are 2 common pitches, NF & NS, or fine thread and course thread. I am not sure that we actually use Imperial sizes, I think for fasteners that would be Whitworth, wouldn't it??
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I feel your pain, the mismatched crap drives me insane as well. Here is the reason why metric is better. All high level mathematics are based upon it, because it is a .01 , .1, 1 , 10 multiple of 10. All equations with SAE are requiring an extra step minimum to convert. Now the standard conversion is 1 mm equal 0.0393701" but generally is rounded. The mm in an inch is 25.4. Anyone concerned with accuracy is generally looking to (A) never round and (B) reduce steps where error can occur. There are many other reasons which are cited below if you are curious, but the biggest by far is the science. Blaming Home Depot for not having bolts that you need is unfortunately not an excuse.

http://www.metric4us.com/why.html


And, SAE has bizarre sizing as well though they are usually just commonly available as fine and course. A 3/8 bolt has a standard TPI of 16, but is also available in 18,20,24,27,28,32, 36 and 40. Each one has a designation and was common place over the years for industry.
 
realkingcobra said:
Please, let me clarify something that I think you're misunderstanding. There's a world of difference between what a pool table mechanic is and pool table installer. If I had to guess, I'd have to say that about 98% of everyone that works on pool tables fall into the installer level of table mechanics, reason being is that they're the ones who are out installing cloth, moving pool tables, installing cushions, and doing some minor repairs to pool tables, in which they should do as it falls upon them do make them basic repairs as needed to do their job right. They're the ones delivering new pool tables to customers and the whole 9 yards, but...that don't make them pool table mechanics, that's all installer level work believe it or not. A real pool table mechanic can do all of the above AND then even more, like refinish, rebuild, modify, redesign, and otherwise fix all the things done wrong to a pool tables 9 very the life usage of that table. Now the real question YOU need to answer, is how did that pool table get in such bad condition that it takes a real pool table mechanic to fix it back up into top playing condition again? When changing the cloth and cushions isn't enough to get the table to play right....then what do you do?
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Really Glen? I would have thought you would have seen what this kinda of ego-maniacal talk gets. Nothing. You surely are a terrific mechanic, no doubt. And Yes, it is possible you and Mark are the top of the food chain in a small way. You alone have polluted more than you've created on here and in person. Out of how many mechanics in the country, making a living as a reputable business for years over, how many still take your calls? I get it man, I do. You want to feel like what you've done matters. But at the end of the day, you are just a guy with basic mechanical ability and a high school education that can barely afford to put a roof over his head. If I never do another set of gold crown rebuilds, I will be just fine. If I never get another customer on here, I will be just fine. Hell Glen, if have a car accident tonight and I am eating through a tube in the morning....Guess what? My business will still run. Talk to me when you accomplish something. In the mean while why don't you consider taking advice from someone who is awesome at burning bridges...Dont. I've burnt enough to last a lifetime and it has stalled me a couple years in the growth of TableTek.
 
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