Gambling 9 ball Debate...need your thoughts

[yally]

Thanks everyone.

Consensus seems to be that no foul was made by sinking the 9 ball into the wrong pocket. Cueball would be left and 9 ball respotted and next player to shoot.

I'll pass this to them, but make sure they are clearer about rules they choose to shoot with going forward.

Of course, I am going to hear it from them as I thought it would be ball in hand...thankfully it was a friendly gambling game! Think I owe them all pizza now

 

[dabarbr]

The 9-ball spots again, and player A has ball in hand for player B illegally moving the cue ball (picking it up thinking it was ball in hand). The game wasn't over at that point.

Since they are friends, they could have agreed to play the last game over again from the start in the name of good sportsmanship, since they both were ignorant of the rules and listened to an idiot railbird. Either way, a lesson learned.

Edit: For clarity, the BCA rules are online and number six specifies this: "FOULS. When a player commits a foul, he must relinquish his run at the table and no balls pocketed on the foul shot are respotted (exception: if a pocketed ball is the 9-ball, it is respotted). The incoming player is awarded ball in hand; prior to his first shot he may place the cue ball anywhere on the table. If a player commits several fouls on one shot, they are counted as only one foul."

I believe that the BCA rule here is referring to the nine ball being pocketed following a foul. Something like double hitting the cue ball, or not hitting the lowest numbered ball on the table first.

The rule does not say that pocketing the nine ball in the wrong pocket is a foul.
The nine ball should be spotted and the incoming player shoots from where the cue ball come to rest at.

 

[Diogenes]

Since your friends (not the sideline observers) decided to alter the "official" rules of the game... then they would need to decide how to play out that situation before anyone ever touched the 9 ball or the cue ball... not someone from the sidelines shouting out their "Wikipedia Rules".

With that being said... I'm kind of on the fence as to how I would call this (if I were one of the players in this game) Normally I would say called pocket 9 ball would spot if made in the wrong pocket (and cue ball remains in place). However... a carefully played cue ball after the foul (especially if there are other balls left on the table) could screw the opposing player after the spot. Is it not this reasoning that caused the BIH rule to enter into billiards to begin with?
Back in the day... it was very common to intentionally foul so that your opponent would be left with the cue ball in the kitchen, because that is also where their object ball was. BIH helps to take some of the cheating out of safety shots. I'm not suggesting that in this case the opposing player fouled on purpose... but I am saying that the BIH rule would certainly keep an opposing player from intentionally pocketing the 9 in the wrong pocket.
Or since they are changing the rules of the game... they could also use an 8 ball rule where if the 9 enters the wrong pocket by mistake... it's a loss of game.

In any event... the opposing player should never have listened to someone on the sidelines and should have clarified with his/her opponent before touching the cue ball. So player B fouls also after committing the "peanut gallery rules" violation.

 

[cleary]

They were playing non-standard rules to begin with. Texas express is standard now in 9 ball.

Asking what the standard rule is when they were not playing by standard rules is futile.

A lot of people all over play by the exact same rules they were play. We have a whole amateur tour in NYC with these exact same rules.

It's absolutely ridiculous to even assume the player should get ball in hand. Why on god's green earth would they get ball in hand? Why would they assume they did? And why would you let them? Why would slopping a ball in be a foul? At some point, you gotta used common sense.

 

[rjb1168]

A lot of people all over play by the exact same rules they were play. We have a whole amateur tour in NYC with these exact same rules.

It's absolutely ridiculous to even assume the player should get ball in hand. Why on god's green earth would they get ball in hand? Why would they assume they did? And why would you let them? Why would slopping a ball in be a foul? At some point, you gotta used common sense.

Agree 100% with Cleary

 

[cuetechasaurus]

I believe that the BCA rule here is referring to the nine ball being pocketed following a foul. Something like double hitting the cue ball, or not hitting the lowest numbered ball on the table first.

The rule does not say that pocketing the nine ball in the wrong pocket is a foul.
The nine ball should be spotted and the incoming player shoots from where the cue ball come to rest at.

My bad Frank, rereading my post, it's kinda ambiguous and confusing to what event in OP's story I'm referring to, and people are getting the exact opposite idea of what I was trying to say. I didn't say the player who pocketed the 9 in the wrong pocket fouled. I said the other player fouled by picking up the cue ball thinking he had ball in hand, when he didn't.


To clarify: Player A pocketed the 9 in the wrong pocket, which was a legal shot. The 9 is supposed to spot, and the incoming player shoots from where the cue ball lies. However, player B incorrectly thought that player A fouled (after listening to a railbird's bad advice) and picked up the cue ball. Picking up the cue ball after a legal shot is made is a foul, so player A, (the person who pocketed the 9 in the wrong pocket on a legal hit) gets ball in hand.

 

[Texdance]

It should be automatic loss of game, just like making an 8-ball in the wrong pocket when playing 8-ball.

The only reason for making up new rules to call-pocket the 9 and only the 9 is what - to make sure slop-pocketing the 9 doesn't advantage the shooter and thus disadvantage the opponent, right?

So, under these guys' rules, why would pocketing the 9 in the wrong pocket NOT be a foul? Why would it not be a foul, similar to jumping the nine off the table?

I think either loss of game, or spotting the nine and giving incoming shooter BIH is the right call here, lacking any specific rules saying differently.

The reason is that any other action could and probably would unfairly penalize the incoming shooter for a failed shot by his opponent - which is something rules usually try to prevent.

It might be different if every ball was call-pocket. Then I would agree that wrong-pocketing the 9 would spot it rather than call for loss of game. But still I would call it a foul which means BIH for the incoming shooter.

But without a set of standard rules nobody can say for sure, except the guys who play the game and agree to the outcome.

Boy, do I hate playing non-standard rules, there is always something that occurs, something the guys making up the new rules never even thought about.

 

[Island Drive]

Couple friends of mine were gambling sets of 9 ball. Issue happened in the last set (hill-hill), and I your help to see what should have been done.

Although it was 9 ball, they decided that you had to CALL THE POCKET for the 9 ball. Otherwise, completely playing 9 ball rules.

Player A makes a legal hit on the 9 ball but pockets the 9 it in a different pocket then the pocket called.

Player B spots the 9 ball and asks if it's ball in hand. Some one from the sidelines says yes. Player B then takes ball in hand and pockets the spotted 9 Ball for the win.

After that game was won and before the next game starts, other people chime in and say that was not the correct action for taking a ball in hand for sinking the 9 in the wrong pocket.

Was it an error taking ball in hand if the 9 ball is sunk in the not called pocket? Isn't that a 9 ball "foul"? Should it have been spotted and the cue ball shot from where to cueball landed after the legal hit? Replay the game?

Or should the balls be placed back where they were prior to player B taking ball in hand? (player B would of course have the option to give the shot back to player A if he did not want to shoot it).

Help peeps! (And yes, my friends are bobos for not clearly defining how they wanted to play calling the 9).

Thanks!

Sounds to me like the rail, should ''tend to their own business''. Let the two players figure it out.

 

[Ralph Kramden]

We play 9 in you win, no matter which pocket.
Does not matter if other balls are on the table.
No stupid rules that will cause disagreements.
.

 

[maha]

this wasnt a tournament it was gambling. no matter what and who made what mistakes. the losing player accepted the foul and let him shoot with ball in hand and didnt attempt to stop it. so the game is over.
you dont go back after the game is over and then negotiate the outcome.

and in gambling like after a bad hit, you dont have to say its ball in hand your opponent says it and goes to pick it up if you dont say anything the play continues.

 

[hang-the-9]

It should be automatic loss of game, just like making an 8-ball in the wrong pocket when playing 8-ball.

The only reason for making up new rules to call-pocket the 9 and only the 9 is what - to make sure slop-pocketing the 9 doesn't advantage the shooter and thus disadvantage the opponent, right?

So, under these guys' rules, why would pocketing the 9 in the wrong pocket NOT be a foul? Why would it not be a foul, similar to jumping the nine off the table?

I think either loss of game, or spotting the nine and giving incoming shooter BIH is the right call here, lacking any specific rules saying differently.

The reason is that any other action could and probably would unfairly penalize the incoming shooter for a failed shot by his opponent - which is something rules usually try to prevent.

It might be different if every ball was call-pocket. Then I would agree that wrong-pocketing the 9 would spot it rather than call for loss of game. But still I would call it a foul which means BIH for the incoming shooter.

But without a set of standard rules nobody can say for sure, except the guys who play the game and agree to the outcome.

Boy, do I hate playing non-standard rules, there is always something that occurs, something the guys making up the new rules never even thought about.

Knocking any ball of the table is a foul. Making a ball in the wrong pocket is not a foul. That is why it's not a foul when you play called 9 and it goes in the wrong pocket.. The only game I know of that making the game ball in the wrong pocket is a loss is in 8 ball. And I don't even know why that would be, does not really adhere to any logic.

Yes at times you get a bad shot if someone makes the 9 but it spots up, but it's a lot better than calling it a win if it goes in some random pocket or if the guy made the shot.

 

[Jaden]

The reason that making the eight ball in the wrong pocket is a foul.

Knocking any ball of the table is a foul. Making a ball in the wrong pocket is not a foul. That is why it's not a foul when you play called 9 and it goes in the wrong pocket.. The only game I know of that making the game ball in the wrong pocket is a loss is in 8 ball. And I don't even know why that would be, does not really adhere to any logic.

Yes at times you get a bad shot if someone makes the 9 but it spots up, but it's a lot better than calling it a win if it goes in some random pocket or if the guy made the shot.

Those rules stem from barbox eightball coin op tables, where you would have to pay for a whole other rack to just spot the eight.

Jaden

 

[PoolBoy1]

I wouldn't gamble playing 9 ball. 10 or 8 ball or straight ball yes. 9 ball is killing TV rating. Boring. Break and run. If a player can't run 7-8 balls he's a B player.

 

[philly]

I wouldn't gamble playing 9 ball. 10 or 8 ball or straight ball yes. 9 ball is killing TV rating. Boring. Break and run. If a player can't run 7-8 balls he's a B player.

I usually break and run a rack of 9 ball at least once a session and I consider myself a "B" player. You should try playing a few sets of 9 ball with a true "A" player. There is a lot more to the game than break and run.