gibson fined for wood

KJ hit it right on the head. Gibson took a shot and lost.

To think that Gibson, a long time major user and importer of exotic hardwoods, including the banned Brazilian rosewood, didn't know what they were doing is total bull****. They know all the laws in all the countries they deal with, it's their business.
 
To both KJ and Paul -- I bet both of you also believe Obama is doing a great job!

KJ -- for you to say that, "The Feds won't go after you unless they have you 'dead to rights' is very narrow minded. The feds thought they had Gibson and they didn't. I know a guy whose home and business was raided by the Feds with over 40 agents dressed in SWAT gear because they thought he was smuggling illegal ivory. Turns out he wasn't. So the Feds make mistakes at your expense! They come in, raid you, can't find the crime and then take years to "investigate". In the meantime they disrupted your business and you have this thing hanging over your head. Eventually some dumb ass plea comes down so they can save face and get a "conviction" and you get closure.

Gibson was 100% in the right. The costs to defend the lawsuit would have cost in the millions and they would have won a hollow victory. The plea was their best deal and they admitted to no wrong doing. What more could you ask for.

The Govt lost this deal with Gibson. How does the Govt justify a plea with the wording, "after it admitted to possible illegal purchases". You either commit a crime or you don't. There is no such plea as a possible crime. This deal was struck to save Gibson legal money which they would have proved the Govt wrong and this deal saved face for the Govt as they weren't going to let go.

Fact: Gibson got raided.
Fact: Gibson fought back with lawyers (and pissed the Govt off)
Fact: Gibson got raided again

They weren't doing anything illegal. The were buying legally harvested wood just as we have done for years. The labeling of the wood is where the problem came in.

Let me explain it this way.

India cannot export raw ebony or rosewood. However if they finish the wood into parts, then they can legally export it. For example and I don't know the exact size of a fret board but let's say it's 3" wide x 21" long x 1/2" thick.

The wood merchants in India cannot sell logs or slabs or anything of raw wood. However, if they cut the wood into fret size boards, they can call them fret boards for instruments and then it's legal for them to export. The crime came in from where and how this wood was sold. The crime was in India not the USA because they called it a fret board didn't make it a fret board. It was raw wood cut to the size of a fret board to circumvent India's laws. And that is a crime in India; not the USA.

The "possible illegal purchases" had to do with Gibson knowing the sales of finished goods from India were illegal for India wood merchants to ship out. Let's see the Govt prove that and that's why the plea agreement.

I give up. Unless you've been there you'll never understand. Deals are made to save face and give an out for the Govt while not convicting the victim; in this case Gibson.
 
What Joe said about cutting raw wood into a certain shape to call it a part to make it legal to ship happens for turning squares also. Most of you should have gotten some turning squares from vendors before where the ends had a very small square tenon. Or, one of the faces of the turning square was contoured (usually concave). Those squares were "chair legs". This doesn't mean said species were on the CITES list. It was done for the shipping country to legally export it, not for the receiving vendor to legally import it. It is done primarily to get around a harvest and export raw material ban that is something akin to a quota system.
 
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I have seen some of the processed wood coming from overseas. A large rough sawn piece of lumber with a small groove or notch chopped into the top of one end transforms it from raw lumber to processed pieces. The recipient can then use this processed piece to mill to the dimensions he actually needs. It could almost be technically legal as long as no one calls anybody on the obvious attempt to skirt the law but there is obviously no way that the exported lumber was in any way ready to use in a final product.

Joe, no Obama isn't doing a great job. That is kind of hard to do when one branch of government declares at the start of your term that their one job is to see to it that you can't do a good job and that you will be a one term president. For a lot more agreeable information you need to go to the NPR section where a few guys with nothing at all to do spend much of their time.
 
Paul Dayton said:
KJ hit it right on the head. Gibson took a shot and lost.

To think that Gibson, a long time major user and importer of exotic hardwoods, including the banned Brazilian rosewood, didn't know what they were doing is total bull****. They know all the laws in all the countries they deal with, it's their business.
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What law did they break? There were NO charges made. What are you talking about, exactly about the "bullshit'?

How could one know he's breaking a law when he wasn't?:confused:

I don't get what you're saying.

Jeff Livingston
 
philisophical discussion of Lacey Act

Lets step away from the specific Gibson and wood situation for a second and look at a hypothetical example of the Lacey Act within our own country.

1. You live in New York. There are no laws in New York against buying, selling, trading, or owning a mouse trap. You need one, and don't feel like driving to the store.
2. You look online to mail order a mouse trap. There is someone in Montana selling a mouse trap for $20 shipped. There is someone in California selling a mouse trap for $19 shipped. You decide to save $1 and order the one from California.
3. After you receive your mouse trap, you are raided, all of your mouse traps are confiscated, and you are fined because New York passed a state law called the New York Lacey Act. Because it was not legal for the California vendor to sell you that mouse trip (maybe the spring was too large, or maybe it was too brutal to the mouse, or he didn't label it right, the reason really doesn't change the circumstances), you have committed a crime buy buying it, and New York is going to do what it can to you in some attempt to please California and do good for the world.
4. There are no federal laws prohibiting the sale of mouse traps. Again, there are no New York state laws prohibiting the buy/sell/trade of mouse traps, either within the state, or across state lines.

Do the posters here think it is ok for the state of New York to prosecute a consumer given these circumstances?
 
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For your mouse trap question - No, f88k the gooberment. The feds have no right to say what can be moved from one state to another but the free market has been gone for a long time.

As for the wood, many of the new laws restricting the exportation of raw lumber/boards have little to do with protecting the forests and lots to do with creating jobs and getting more money per bf in the country the wood comes from.
 
It was said somewhere in all this that Gibson knows all the laws in other countries where they import from. I doubt that is true if other countries are like ours. We have laws that take up thousands of pages for minor things. How could anyone know our own laws totally, let alone those from other countries?

Someone also basically said that they keep all the laws here and have no tolerance for those who break laws. I doubt any of us keep all the USA laws perfectly. There are contradictory laws on the books. How many of us break the speed limit? I was in Canada last week and they had the exact fines for going 20 km over the speed limit, and 30 km and 40 km over. I think it was $95, $225 and $295. And for 50km over they said something like up to $10,000 fine, lose license on the spot, vehicle confiscation and so on. So at least there you know what the penalty is if you speed. I chose not to run 20 km over. :smile:

In that case you clearly know what the tolerance is and what the penalty is. With all these other things who knows the true rules or the penalties. I have pretty much quit importing exotic woods and only buy from trusted importers who are more up on the rules than I am.
 
Paul Dayton said:
Joe, no Obama isn't doing a great job. That is kind of hard to do when one branch of government declares at the start of your term that their one job is to see to it that you can't do a good job and that you will be a one term president. For a lot more agreeable information you need to go to the NPR section where a few guys with nothing at all to do spend much of their time.
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OH, I see and you belive what you just said too, huh! So it's all the Republicans fault. Now I understand but please let me know how the Republicans planned on seeing that he didn't do a good job when the Democrats held both the House and Senate. Remember, that's how he pushed ObamaCare down our throats. With a majority why didn't he focus on the economy? You see it's easy to blame the Republicans when the liberal media sells you their crap. You need to stop listening to NPR. And no, I'm not a Republican. Just being fair and balanced here. :-)
 
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Gibson to Bean Counter and Legal Department- "If we take this to the next level what will the outcome be?

Lagal Department - "We will lose. Knowing or unknowingly a Law has been broken. If full charges are brought certain people could even look at Jail time.

Bean Counter - It will cost far less to cut losses now and showing good faith will keep the good name intact.

Gibson - No Brainer
 
TomHay said:
Gibson to Bean Counter and Legal Department- "If we take this to the next level what will the outcome be?

Lagal Department - "We will lose. Knowing or unknowingly a Law has been broken. If full charges are brought certain people could even look at Jail time.

Bean Counter - It will cost far less to cut losses now and showing good faith will keep the good name intact.

Gibson - No Brainer
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It'd be cheaper to just buy a few senators.:grin:
 
Joe, Don't give me that shit about the democrats having both houses of congress so they could do what they want. With the partisan politics of today a majority in the senate has to be 60 senators, not 51 and republicans can and do block everything they don't like with a threat of a filibuster. McConnel promised this when Obama was elected.
 
Paul Dayton said:
Joe, Don't give me that shit about the democrats having both houses of congress so they could do what they want. With the partisan politics of today a majority in the senate has to be 60 senators, not 51 and republicans can and do block everything they don't like with a threat of a filibuster. McConnel promised this when Obama was elected.
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Paul....

So, what is your favorite flavor Kool-Aid since you are obviously drinking so much of it?

What "sh!t" would you like me to give you? The unabashed truth is, the Dems had both houses; period end of conversation. If what you say is true (not), how in the world did they pass ObamaCare? They had 2 full years to do whatever they wanted (and did they ever). Entitlements and cronyism were more important than the economy; the failed Obama economy. This is the same guy who thinks the government built my business and your business. The same guy who doesn't practice what he preaches.

Obama owns this economy and there is no mistaking that. Not since Jimmy Carter has this nation been in such distress. And you think 4 more Obama years will be different and better! You have 50% of Americans not paying taxes. You have 46 million on food stamps. You have an unprecedented number of Americans on welfare and Obama wants to take the work out of welfare. We have a 16 billion national debt and this president doesn't want to do anything about it. How much longer can we sustain all this! If the USA were a person, he'd be in bankruptcy right now.

If Mickey Mouse and Bluto were on the ticket, I'd vote for them before I would ever consider Obama. Quite frankly I think he is going to lose big time just like Carter did. The only problem with that statement is the fact that you have more voters dependent on the government today than 1980.
 
I am not sure but I think the economy has picked up quite a bit since the Bush/Cheney years.

If someone gives you a pigs ear it will take longer than 4 years to create a silk purse.

People forget how much money another conflict like Iraq costs and Obama was the one who gave the order to kill Bin Laden who was the real 9/11.

Wake me up for my Kool Aid when they find the WMD
 
TomHay said:
I am not sure but I think the economy has picked up quite a bit since the Bush/Cheney years.

If someone gives you a pigs ear it will take longer than 4 years to create a silk purse.

People forget how much money another conflict like Iraq costs and Obama was the one who gave the order to kill Bin Laden who was the real 9/11.

Wake me up for my Kool Aid when they find the WMD
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It seems you have already had way too much of the Kool Aid and a look in the NPR section might show you some clues that you probably won't listen to either but all this seems to be getting rather far off the OP. Gibson was fined and life goes on. Next subject.
 
TomHay said:
I am not sure but I think the economy has picked up quite a bit since the Bush/Cheney years.

If someone gives you a pigs ear it will take longer than 4 years to create a silk purse.

People forget how much money another conflict like Iraq costs and Obama was the one who gave the order to kill Bin Laden who was the real 9/11.

Wake me up for my Kool Aid when they find the WMD
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Tom,

You're absolutely correct; it was and is all Bush/Cheny's fault. The record unemployment. The national debt. The failed investments into solar. Fast & Furious. It's all their fault. Obama is just wonderful.

In fact, it's Kennedy's fault that there is so much unrest in Cuba and Venezuela. It's still Carter's fault for the crisis in Iran these days. At what point do we stop blaming past administrations for current problems. At what point would you think Obama owns this economy? OK, the guy killed Bin Laden. Based on your reasoning that the current problems stemmed from the Bush/Cheney days then its reasonable to state that Bush/Cheny killed Bin Laden because they laid the ground work for the apparatus to find and ultimately kill Bin Laden. Obama had a real tough decision. Geee, should we send in Seals to kill the guy who attacked us. That's a real hard decision.

We have record unemployment. Record numbers on welfare and food stamps. Stagnation in the economy with virtually no growth. Record National debt. And you want to blame Bush for all this 4 years later. Obama has done nothing to improve the economy.

I'm very sorry to inform you but this is now the Obama economy! The National debt wasn't anywhere near $16 Trillion when Bush left office. Obama ran it up and still has not addressed the issue. He's more concerned with releasing welfare recipients from work than the trillions he ran up with his failed policies.

So how's the tip business?
 
Just because you disagree and have different political views..............

You don't need to be hateful............

Just agree to disagree......

Kim
 
whammo57 said:
Just because you disagree and have different political views..............

You don't need to be hateful............

Just agree to disagree......

Kim
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Kim...

I don't see where there was anything "hateful"; just truthful. We don't need to read things into this that aren't there. Facts are facts; opinions are opinions. We're having a civil discussion and there was no need to antagonize the issue.

And I don't have different political views; just common sense. I don't care who is in office as long as they are productive for the majority and do the right thing. I don't think Obama is doing the right thing for the masses and his politics are destructive. We cannot sustain the 17 trillion dollar national debt and if you would like to show me how we can sustain it, how we can sustain 8.3% unemployment, stagnation economics, record numbers on welfare and food stamps, failed policies, I'll be more than happy to listen and perhaps even change my opinion. I don't think any of this is good for America. I think Obama is a great guy; he has a terrific personality, he sings well, he's got a great sense of humor and he's a great parent and husband.

So Tom -- how's the tip business? :-)
 
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Joe Barringer said:
Kim...

I don't see where there was anything "hateful"; just truthful. We don't need to read things into this that aren't there. Facts are facts; opinions are opinions. We're having a civil discussion and there was no need to antagonize the issue.

And I don't have different political views; just common sense. I don't care who is in office as long as they are productive for the majority and do the right thing. I don't think Obama is doing the right thing for the masses and his politics are destruictive. We cannot sustain the 17 billion dollar national debt and if you would like to show me how we can sustain it, how we can sustain 8.3% unemployment, stagnation economics, record numbers on welfare and food stamps, failed policies, I'll be more than happy to listen and perhaps even change my opinion. I don't think any of this is good for America. I think Obama is a great guy; he has a terrific personality, he sings well, he's got a great sense of humor and he's a great parent and husband.

So Tom -- how's the tip busienss? :-)
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Correction: $17 Trillion or ~ $170,000 per household.

Jeff Livingston
 
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