asiasdad
Banned
The "law" is criminal...that's what you do not seem to understand....go ahead
and give the federal government your guns when they come after them too.
Ginacue pleads guilty
- Thread starter Shawn Armstrong
- Start date
The "law" is criminal...that's what you do not seem to understand....go ahead
and give the federal government your guns when they come after them too.
Would he have sold a single cue less if he had sold exclusively within the States?
You obviously did not read the complaint. He sold to people that he knew were planning on taking them out of the country, and it is then called conspiracy. And he has been doing it for quite some time now, apparently.
Read the complaint/affadvit. Many people are just embarrassing themselves now because the facts are now out there and they are still making specious arguments that cannot hold up.
The law is an ass, but it is still the law and it is stupid to KNOWINGLY break it. There is a difference between inadvertantly breaking some law you know nothing about, and helping smugglers package up their goods for illegal export. This was not some blow for freedom.
I do not disagree that most of this ivory issue has been caused by governments. Corrupt government in Africa who let poachers run wild. Because when everyone owns something no one owns it or takes care of it. THAT is the difference between elephants and cattle. Cattle thrive because people own them and make use of them. Amazingly, ranching a species preserves it much better than "preserving" one does.
At heart I am a tiny government guy and if I had my way government's powers would be so limited that these kinds of issues would never even arise. But living as if that was here now is just stupid. Reality may suck, but it is still reality and you buck it at your own risk.
And this was a stupid risk.
Prior to July of 2016, it was only illegal for Ernie to sell cues that contained ivory if the ivory was purchased after 1977. If he had a stockpile of ivory that was purchased before 1977, it was legal in CA to use it in cues and sell it anywhere until the July 2016 date. From the affidavit, we know he purchased some from Barringer much later than that date, so cues using ivory purchased from him would have been illegal. Only Ernie knows when he would have ran out of legal ivory.
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justaplayer
Banned
https://www.fws.gov/international/travel-and-trade/ivory-ban-questions-and-answers.html
See the above link to understand what the current federal law is regarding ivory sales. Also speaks to interstate laws.
Most ivory cue sales today are considered illegal under current rules.
As of July, only authenticated 100 year old plus antique ivory items can be exported out of the country and never for commercial purposes. It's a "near total ban".
See the above link to understand what the current federal law is regarding ivory sales. Also speaks to interstate laws.
Most ivory cue sales today are considered illegal under current rules.
As of July, only authenticated 100 year old plus antique ivory items can be exported out of the country and never for commercial purposes. It's a "near total ban".
No he doesn't realize that. People....not just "asians" have been transporting things with ivory in them, including cues, forever. Many AMERICAN cue makers and dealers have flown around the world with ivory inlaid cues in them and not bothered to fill out the requisite forms and get the requisite clearances.
As for what Ernie knew or didn't know...I still maintain that if he didn't SHIP the cues or somehow provide material help in the form of some invoice that didn't mention the ivory in the cues then I don't see how he aided or abetted the attempted smuggling of the cues. Of course "abetted" is a nicely loose term that can be twisted to fit any situation.
And the comment about buying seats is especially silly considering that pool cues are not allowed into the cabin anyway.
I am pretty sure that just about any high end cue dealer and many cue makers could be charged with "abetting" if the government wanted to really investigate all their emails and past sales.
In as least 10 African countries you can today bye a permit to hunt/kill elephants and yes you get to keep the tusks, it's important tourism to their economy. It's well regulated by the goverments to maintain populations of healthy herds due to the lost elephant habitat.
Most illegal ivory come from countries run by warlords that turn a blind eye to poachers. On the black market ivory = guns.
Google it, I did.
Prosecuting Ernie will not save one elephant or put one poacher out of business.
IMHO, J. Dale
Most illegal ivory come from countries run by warlords that turn a blind eye to poachers. On the black market ivory = guns.
Google it, I did.
Prosecuting Ernie will not save one elephant or put one poacher out of business.
IMHO, J. Dale
Yeah they even say on the site that it's a near total ban. Regarding pool cues though, at least in interstate commerce, it seems as if the de minimus exception would cover most of them produced before July 2016 if the ivory used was imported to the USA before 1990.
It also seems as though cues can be exported commercially if they meet the de minimus exception. Again though this requires some paperwork and expense to meet this criteria. My thought is that trying to export items with ivory without filing the paperwork is what constitutes smuggling.
Looks like the ivory era is pretty much over in the USA for the foreseeable future. Pretty sure though that there will now be a black market for ivory in the USA as it now becomes tougher to obtain and taboo to own. I guess the USA learned nothing from Prohibition.
How am I suppose to know that say a Gilbert cue I had built 5 years ago has pre 1990 Ivory in it or not? Maybe I am naïve, but I doubt these cue makers have documents showing when the ivory was harvested.
And I am sorry, but I am still a bit - or maybe a lot - confused. I can still own my Gilbert cue but I am not allowed to sell it? Am I allowed to carry it out of state?
That's either wrong or at least missing some words. Prior to July 2016 it may have been legal to sell legally acquired pre-ban Ivory within the US, but it was against the law to export it (or, as Ernie found out, to aid and abet the export).
This is not a US government lead issue. The CITES treaty came into force over 40 years ago and the US is just one of the many countries that are signatories and enforce it through local laws.
Hard to know, but I suspect he would not have sold cues for the same value. I could be wrong, but I think Asian buyers are prepared to pay more for high end cues.
Great story. Let me stop you here with some facts, fool. On page 12 of 27 of the legal affidavit, an email is sent to Ernie regarding some cues he has ordered, and arranges to visit Ernie's shop to pick them up. This was in December 2015. So, the crap you wrote above, although entertaining, is 100% fiction cooked up in your head. December is 7 months prior to the July ban, and he isn't picking up Ernie's surplus. He has 29 pool cues on order with Ernie, of which 11 will be ready in April.
Page 23 of 27 of the same affidavit - Ernie denies that Liu is from Taiwan, saying he thought he lived in Florida. Then he later admits he knows he's from Taiwan, but he also lives in Florida. Then he lawyers up. So...maybe Ernie forgot....?
Again, complete fiction. He had received monies for the cues. There was no "write off". And again, per the affidavit, the cues were ordered prior to December 2015. So, I don't know what math you took in school, but that's in excess of 200+ days before your AB-96 kicked in. And again, he already had the order in hand, and 11 of 29 cues completed for pickup in April 2016.
Yep, you lost me. I tend to get lost wading through piles of misleading bullshit.
Columbo figured it out. That's why Ernie got charged. And plead out.
Please read the FACTS before you postulate any more theories. Please.
And please, keep posting in your pious, condescending, yet oh so stupid manner. I need comic relief heading into a weekend.
You would have to obtain provenance and expert appraisal/identification. The paperwork still has to be produced. Yes you can transport your cue throughout the United States unless any particular state has a statewide ban on possession of the material used.
As for documentation...if they bought their ivory from someone like David Warther they should either have or be able to get documentation showing that it is pre-ban ivory.
Doesn't matter... ok they are checked.. now they still are x-ray'd or gone through... so now they spot 18 cues with potential ivory.. then look at who owns them and yell BINGO...
JV
Yes, he would have sold a lot less cues without the Asian buyers. Fong Pang Chou and a few other players made Gina cues desirable and popular in Taiwan and Japan and wealthy buyers had to have them as status symbols.
The same goes for many other cue makers who have had a strong enduring market in Asia.
I once sat in the office of a wealthy pool room owner with my friend who sold him the tables. The owner wanted to buy SouthWest cues. I told him there was a ten year wait. He asked how many he could buy and I said I didn't know what the limit was but I thought it was 2 or 3. He asked seriously if he could buy 20 per year.
I have seen buyers just give a broker $100,000 to buy cues. I have seen buyers pay double retail for cues in Taiwan and Japan.
I would agree with this. I would not want to try and go through customs with anything with ivory in it much less lots of pool cues.
Reading between the lines on one of the reports I found though it seems as if Chady was possibly flagged because Fish and Wildlife found a post where he was advertising a cue with ivory and elephant ear. So it's entirely possible that he was going to get checked anyway.
Or they could have found that information after the bust.
Shawn would you mind linking to the affidavit? I am just curious, not looking for any kind of argument.
Reading between the lines, it appears Ernie was flagged a few times when foreign owners tried shipping him cues to be repaired, that ended up getting confiscated.