Ginacue pleads guilty
- Thread starter Shawn Armstrong
- Start date
Shawn Armstrong obviously doesn't appreciate how long it takes Ernie to start and finish a cue......90 days hardly allows a lot of time to finish cues without accelerating things. Ernie saw the handwriting on the wall last December when Gov. Brown signed the law and even 6 months lead time would challenge Ernie for new cue orders not started, and cues underway.......Ginacue isn't a production cue company......Alas, the reality is high end custom cues like Ernie made take awhile to complete.....that's why several CA cue-makers announced back in January they were no longer producing cues with any ivory and stopped accepting orders for such cues. There wasn't sufficient time for them to start and finish the cues before the ivory ban became effective.......Bob Owen really worked hard to complete my last custom before the CA ban started. I placed my order May 2015 and original completion was October 2016 but in January I apprised Bob about the new CA law. He had to work hard to push up the completion date & fortunately, I received this gem just before Memorial Day wkend..
What is the difference between sending the cues with Chady to Taiwan verses sending the cues with UPS to Taiwan? Nothing except the shipping method being used. What matters is whether you knew they were going out of country, not which specific methods of movement or shipping were used to get them there.
He did that too, wrote invoices claiming it was ivory substitute and not ivory. But knowingly sending ivory out of country (even if the shipping method was a personal courier instead of UPS) was a crime whether the invoices were fabricated or not.
You would be wrong. What makes you guilty is selling it or helping to move it while knowing it is going out of country. What shipping method you used, whether it be UPS, or a courier who was to fly them in their personal baggage (which is what happened here), or whether it was through an intermediary re-shipper who was also in the US (which is the way he typically did it) is immaterial. The particular movement or shipping method being used isn't what makes you guilty, it is knowing it is going to a foreign country and participating in the process that makes you guilty.
And I guess Bava doesn't read very well. The arrest took place in April 2016. They had the ivory sections with them as they were leaving the country. And, as others have stated, this is a federal charge. Not state. There goes the California July 1st ivory ban theory...
justaplayer
Banned
There are few here who understand how far reaching these federal laws will be utilized. There will be more charged. Of you are a small time cue flipper operating with a website, you better pray they don't come to your door asking for your sales records. Any cue makers working with ivory had best be sure of where there cues are going. It's only getting tougher from here.
Poolplaya9 addressed the core issue that determines guilt........one cannot say I did not know where the cues were going or they had every reason to believe and rely upon these cue components would remain in the USA........just look at the buyers profiles........Much to the contrary, this was a negotiated price bulk purchase and Ernie can't say he never asked them what they were going to do with these cues or that he did not know where these gentlemen actually lived.....this was a very big purchase for any cue-maker and the extraordinary nature of the sale of and by itself warrants presenting those type questions to the buyers........you can't behave like you were blind, deaf and dumb and argue under any principle of ignorance of the buyers motives, or final destination of these cue components. Ernie doesn't sell Ginacues in sections to buyers that later have the cue components assembled & completed by some 3rd party.......none of us are in a position to judge nor condemn Ernie since we don't know what's was in his heart or mind when this sale was consummated......I say cut him lots of slack since this was legal ivory to start with and the friggin' law is absurd since it will not accomplish a damn thing to prevent poaching or save a single elephant's life.....That's just the reality of the matter at hand.
justaplayer
Banned
Probably gonna need cash for fines and lawyers. Might be a hell of a yard sale.
Did he finish all 50 of the 50th anniversary cues? Maybe they were part of the sale.
It's a real shame what's happened, but he has been indesputably wrong on this for many years.
Yup....they're gonna use him as a sample.
A warning sign to all other cue makers.
And...it's working.
I can't imagine Ernie quitting entirely. However, if anything would drive you to retirement at 75, this situation may do it.
Whether you are pro or con ivory, you can't dispute the fact that Ernie knew all these cues were going overseas. And for anybody else doing the same, they have to know their e-mails and phone records are subject to being snooped upon if the government decides to pounce on them.
I think the sales of cues with ivory being sold online will start dropping off due to the potential heat.
I think the sales of cues with ivory being sold online will start dropping off due to the potential heat.
As to what Chefjeff posts about this and getting affairs in order; There's a saying in police work.
Smack 'em once to get 'em to talk,
smack 'em twice to make 'em stop.
Everyone is dropping dimes.
Smack 'em once to get 'em to talk,
smack 'em twice to make 'em stop.
Everyone is dropping dimes.
Shawn..... .Let me try in see spot run language.........
Ernie realizes on January 2, 2016 ( or in the ensuing months to follow) that he is doomed.
That AB-96 has been signed into existence......he walks around his shop and gulps.....OMG.
He sees how much is yet to be done to beat the ban by shipping & getting paid before 7/1.
Buyers visit his shop 90 days before the ban starts.....Ernie realizes cues are not going to
be able to get finished and shipped from his shop before Friday, July 1st arrives.....there
are cue in various stages and likely some very near completion but it's blatantly obvious to
Ernie he cannot complete everything that confronts him before July 1st......maybe he was
counting on the Governor to veto AB-96 but that didn't happen.
Are you following this yet? I can go slower if necessary or use smaller words since perhaps
you're challenged by vocabulary....send me a PM and I do a more elementary recital of facts.
Anyway, two guys walk into Ernie shop and shout..."We'll take everything."....well, not exactly.
Ernie knew the circumstances or better yet, didn't want to know all of the circumstances so he
makes it a point not to ask.....doesn't matter.....Ernie is not a fool & he was hip to what was
taking place....two overseas buyers want to make a huge purchase and he knows the cues are
not going to get posted on AZ for sale.........these are headed back to the buyers destination of
origin......but Ernie doesn't want to get involved.....doesn't ask......maybe he does......creates a
false bill of sale or lading, if that's true, just makes it patently clear he was a co-conspirator.
Ernie already knew he could not legally ship any cue containing ivory outside the USA which
has been the situation for awhile. That's a Federal law and he also knew that the Federal law
has just changed so shipping out of the USA was never even a question......it is not allowed...
and that's been the situation for quite awhile.......maybe Shawn forgot?
Ernie was confronted with a major write-off since it was the California statute, AB-96, that was
his biggest challenge.......ya see he knew he could not ship a cue overseas with ivory in it.....and
he abided by that Federal restriction throughout his career. Ernie was more concerned about not
being able to ship a cue from his shop after June 30, 2016....are you keeping up with this Shawn?
Am I going too fast? April could indeed be as much as 90 days before the ban started if the buyers
walked thru the shop doors on April 1st.....and a lot less than 90 days too.....and 90 days is not and
was not sufficient time for Ernie to complete all the cues in his shop underway that had any ivory.
So let's review.....buyers from overseas 90 days before the ban starts....Ernie is already worried
about how much money he'll be losing by not completing every cue underway.....2 guys say let us
help you by buying these cues, or more specifically, cue sections or components....whatever u prefer.
Ernie knows the Federal ban has no bearing whatsoever on the cues in his shop and he can finish
these cues in the ordinary course of business but wait......he can't ship anything out of his shop that
has ivory which is underway after June 30th......so it's not the Fedeal law that has Ernie in a financial
panic.....it's California AB-96 that takes effect in less than 90 days......have I lost you yet, Shawn?
It does not take Columbo to figure this one out......so please continue posting in the fashion that you
seem to have such a proclivity to do........apparently self-embarrassment neither dissuades or deters
you from posting some pretty dumb remarks......at least you bring a sense of comedy to this Forum.
Ernie realizes on January 2, 2016 ( or in the ensuing months to follow) that he is doomed.
That AB-96 has been signed into existence......he walks around his shop and gulps.....OMG.
He sees how much is yet to be done to beat the ban by shipping & getting paid before 7/1.
Buyers visit his shop 90 days before the ban starts.....Ernie realizes cues are not going to
be able to get finished and shipped from his shop before Friday, July 1st arrives.....there
are cue in various stages and likely some very near completion but it's blatantly obvious to
Ernie he cannot complete everything that confronts him before July 1st......maybe he was
counting on the Governor to veto AB-96 but that didn't happen.
Are you following this yet? I can go slower if necessary or use smaller words since perhaps
you're challenged by vocabulary....send me a PM and I do a more elementary recital of facts.
Anyway, two guys walk into Ernie shop and shout..."We'll take everything."....well, not exactly.
Ernie knew the circumstances or better yet, didn't want to know all of the circumstances so he
makes it a point not to ask.....doesn't matter.....Ernie is not a fool & he was hip to what was
taking place....two overseas buyers want to make a huge purchase and he knows the cues are
not going to get posted on AZ for sale.........these are headed back to the buyers destination of
origin......but Ernie doesn't want to get involved.....doesn't ask......maybe he does......creates a
false bill of sale or lading, if that's true, just makes it patently clear he was a co-conspirator.
Ernie already knew he could not legally ship any cue containing ivory outside the USA which
has been the situation for awhile. That's a Federal law and he also knew that the Federal law
has just changed so shipping out of the USA was never even a question......it is not allowed...
and that's been the situation for quite awhile.......maybe Shawn forgot?
Ernie was confronted with a major write-off since it was the California statute, AB-96, that was
his biggest challenge.......ya see he knew he could not ship a cue overseas with ivory in it.....and
he abided by that Federal restriction throughout his career. Ernie was more concerned about not
being able to ship a cue from his shop after June 30, 2016....are you keeping up with this Shawn?
Am I going too fast? April could indeed be as much as 90 days before the ban started if the buyers
walked thru the shop doors on April 1st.....and a lot less than 90 days too.....and 90 days is not and
was not sufficient time for Ernie to complete all the cues in his shop underway that had any ivory.
So let's review.....buyers from overseas 90 days before the ban starts....Ernie is already worried
about how much money he'll be losing by not completing every cue underway.....2 guys say let us
help you by buying these cues, or more specifically, cue sections or components....whatever u prefer.
Ernie knows the Federal ban has no bearing whatsoever on the cues in his shop and he can finish
these cues in the ordinary course of business but wait......he can't ship anything out of his shop that
has ivory which is underway after June 30th......so it's not the Fedeal law that has Ernie in a financial
panic.....it's California AB-96 that takes effect in less than 90 days......have I lost you yet, Shawn?
It does not take Columbo to figure this one out......so please continue posting in the fashion that you
seem to have such a proclivity to do........apparently self-embarrassment neither dissuades or deters
you from posting some pretty dumb remarks......at least you bring a sense of comedy to this Forum.
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Personally I am a surprised that Chady would be so foolish as to do this. He basically was smuggling illegal merchandise overseas.
Ernie probably thought he had deniability, at least before he consulted a lawyer. I hope he had some sort of plea deal.
The really bad news for collectors: Now cues are on the target list.
Ernie probably thought he had deniability, at least before he consulted a lawyer. I hope he had some sort of plea deal.
The really bad news for collectors: Now cues are on the target list.
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I plead guilty on a traffic ticket once after a pig gave me a ticket because he mistook me for another car.
It was just cheaper to plead guilty than fight it out and maybe screwed by a judge.
It was just cheaper to plead guilty than fight it out and maybe screwed by a judge.
I think that if you sold the ivory, knowing it would be sent overseas, you could have some culpability. You played a fulfilling role in an illegal set of acts.
But that is neither here nor there...I also wish the best for Ernie.
But that is neither here nor there...I also wish the best for Ernie.
I'm really not sure about that logic. He never said it wasn't a federal charge.
He said the cue maker might have been trying to avoid the state deadline.
Screwed up federally trying it.
Makes sense.
.
Matt....read the link Joe posted. The answers are all there. None of the above came into play. He also admitted to doing the same thing in the past. As much as you hate the new California law...this case had nothing to do with it.
You can write as slowly as you'd like. Try writing as slow as you read.
Duh.