glue
- Thread starter treed
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3M DP460 .is the strongest epoxy I know of.
File some notches on that insert.
File some notches on that insert.
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What is up with this 5-minute epoxy craze?
They're about the worst for construction epoxy.
What's the hurry?
Use a slowset epoxy that clings better and becomes much harder for construction pieces.
They're about the worst for construction epoxy.
What's the hurry?
Use a slowset epoxy that clings better and becomes much harder for construction pieces.
Most fast epoxies use Mecaptans to accelerate them. Here is a quote from an epoxy site.
"The Drawbacks
Thus, the polymercaptans offer some unique properties. The key limitations in using mercaptans are odor, skinning, and heat-deflection temperature.
We have made progress in the area of odor reduction and skinning resistance. The lower heat-deflection temperature is inherent in the structure of the mercaptan. In addition, improved heat resistance would be at the expense of the rapid room-temperature cure."
Not in my cues!
"The Drawbacks
Thus, the polymercaptans offer some unique properties. The key limitations in using mercaptans are odor, skinning, and heat-deflection temperature.
We have made progress in the area of odor reduction and skinning resistance. The lower heat-deflection temperature is inherent in the structure of the mercaptan. In addition, improved heat resistance would be at the expense of the rapid room-temperature cure."
Not in my cues!
Engineering in the real world concerning limits is all about numbers. In this case adhesion is the question.
Mountain climbers use a 14 mm kernmantle rope for their safety belaying and repelling up and down. Why because it is 10 times stronger then the limits required for the application.
Your statement suggests that a mountain climber should use a 30 or 40 mm rope which would be much safer but really not necessary at all.
DPK used Devon 5 minute epoxy for his joints and butt caps (no threading required) which has a 1500 psi tensile strength. Today's 5 minute epoxies are much stronger.
I don't see any DPK joints or butt caps failing today and I can't think of something a person could do with a pool cue that would cause failure to the butt cap without destroying the the cue. Engineers get their data for stress failure because the do destructive testing. Not feel good rational.
JMO,
Rick
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More mumbo jumbo to me.
The quick release insert does not have much gluing room.
Worse, it's a round piece with fine threads.
You see one spin, you see one too many.
You don't want it to spin ?
File notches and use slow set epoxy then you wouldn't have worry about it spinning .
Call Uniloc or Atlas and ask what epoxy they suggest.
I bet they wouldn't suggest 5-minute epoxy.
So many cues out there have mystery buzzes.
I would venture to say a ton of them are caused by press fit parts with quick set epoxy.
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deleted not worth it
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Hi,
Any epoxy used to marry any material to wood will create a bond.
Any failure that may occur would happen in the wood parent material that was glued.
If the epoxy is stronger than the wood itself it does not matter is you use one gazillion psi epoxy, the weakest point of the joint in always in the transition area which is the fiber of the wood itself.
If that is Mumbo Jumbo I must be living in a different physical universe or am on a bad acid trip here on AZ.
Excuse me while I kiss the Sky!!!!!!!!
Again, Just my opinion.
Rick
Any epoxy used to marry any material to wood will create a bond.
Any failure that may occur would happen in the wood parent material that was glued.
If the epoxy is stronger than the wood itself it does not matter is you use one gazillion psi epoxy, the weakest point of the joint in always in the transition area which is the fiber of the wood itself.
If that is Mumbo Jumbo I must be living in a different physical universe or am on a bad acid trip here on AZ.
Excuse me while I kiss the Sky!!!!!!!!
Again, Just my opinion.
Rick
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Not true on those inserts.
The ones I saw, the epoxy gave. Not the wood.
Not true on pins I saw come off the forearm either.
The woods did not have any tear in them.
If the epoxy is stronger than wood argument holds any weight, grinding flats on pins and inserts are a waste of time then.
Those flats might make the difference in a pin or insert coming out.
Also, epoxy ages . Wood moves.
Again, call UniLoc and ask for their epoxy recommendation.
If they recommend 5-minute epoxy, go for it.
You can quit using Hysol epoxy . Just 5-minute varities since they are stronger than wood.
Use them in your pins, inserts, collars, sleeves and rings.
If anyone is using 5-minute epoxy in their A-joint or butt sleeve, he's sacrificing construction integrity for speed.
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Hi,
There we can agree on one thing. I too am a big fan of filing V Grooves on tenons to form keyways to increase the surface area of the bond and create an interlock foundation structure in cross section.
Again I am not saying slower cure higher strength epoxies is a bad idea when using file grooves.
Everyone has their own bend to the brim of their hat but if the hypothetical failure happens because the wood shrinks everything is just a moot point anyway.
There is always a trade off in choosing materials. We all do those things that we have found to be tried a true over time creating our confidence level in cue building
Lets say the annulus gap between the ID and OD is .002 per side as and example and the epoxy joint is without the grooves and is very thin. Now mix up some epoxy on a piece of paper .002 thick using the super duper high strength and some fast cure stuff. Let it cure completely for 7 days.
After curing is over bend the paper 90 degrees and see what happens. I think you will find out that the super super stuff at that mill thickness will crack at a lesser degree of angle that the fast cure stuff. Why because both have a different coefficient of brittleness or ductility. Believe me, I have done these destructive tests with many products thus observing the mumbo jumbo you speak of.
JMO, of coarse,
Rick
Rick
I don't believe it's the increase in surface area that helps. It's the flats that help. A round piece with glue around it will spin much easier than if it has flat surface area where the epoxy has to break before it can spin. The glue around can give but not break. The flats will have to break for that round piece to spin.
It's not. The 5-minute epoxy IS THE BAD IDEA. Why the rush ?
Again, if they are as good as the Hysol, let me know when you're going to quit using Hysol. I'll use them for ferrules and inserts any day.
The only trade off with slow set epoxy is it needs more time to cure.
What is the rush ? Original poster has had problems with QR insert.
5-minute epoxy is not his solution.
More mumbo jumbo to me.
Are you gonna use 5-minute epoxy on collars, pins, butt sleeves, inlays and rings ?
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Now your going beyond the scope of this thread. Each application has its own set of things to consider concerning material to use the way my mumbo jumbo likes it. It is not a one size fits all picture.
One thing is for sure I don't live thread my points or inlays just as I don't live thread my butt caps, ferrules and joint collars as the v grooves seem to work very well. A proper fit and post pressure during the cure is ok with me. I don't knock anyone who likes to do it either. You know the bend to the brim thing and everyone has their own confidence level based on what they have learned and observed over time. That's all!
Rick
OK, let's stick to tube parts.
Will you use 5-minute epoxy over Hysol slow set on inserts , collars or butt plates ?
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The one factor to be considered is the ability to replace a joint should something go wrong.
It is no fun in machining out stainless or titanium parts.
With some epoxies, the heat required is too much for wood to still remain stable.
Left hand drills are a help.
Neil
It is no fun in machining out stainless or titanium parts.
With some epoxies, the heat required is too much for wood to still remain stable.
Left hand drills are a help.
Neil
Joey,
Since this is a thread about glue and we are discussing it here I will answer your question in the spirt of sharing information concerning the use of different glues in my view and opinion only. The fact that you raised the question concerning the use of 5 minute epoxy, I wish to defend it's use for certain applications.
First of all, I myself use West system G5 for my Ferrules ( thru hole / non threaded ), Garolite LE Shaft inserts, Joint collars and butt caps. My background for the use of this material came from my mentor Ray Hernandez who was the last cue maker to work at Omega DPK in Waconda, Il.
My providence and confidence for this product's use comes from Rays experience and my experience as a cue repair guy for 10 years and my cue making experience for 9 years. I have installed new and repaired way over 600 ferrules using G5 and have not seen one single failure. Not one!! BTW most CMs or repair guys I know use 5 minute epoxy for this application.
When you think about it, the ferrule takes the biggest blunt force of the impact of the hit only buffered by the tip. Now think beyond that point. If the ferrule does not fail using G5 it seems to me that using it downstream on the cue would be a piece of cake the further south of the hit you intall something with it. If you reference DPK's cue making book he used 5 minute epoxy and the last time i played with one of his 40 year old cues his was not buzzing and hit very nicely thank you.
There is a urban ledgend statement that keeps repeating here on AZ that quotes West Systems website statement "Not to be used for structural application". After talking candidly to their engineering staff they told me flat out that G5 is the stongest five minute epoxy formula in the world and in boat building it is used to tac stringers and other structural hull components before laying the fiberglass blanket material. Boat are subject to many degres of deflection concern pith and yaw and the constant forces of wave put stresses on hull components. A very dynamic condition for sure.
The blanket material is then covered with and high psi formula 206 / 105 or whatever that is a slow cure epoxy. Because the material covering the fiberglass must soak into and wick the blanket material, a fast curing more viscus material like G5 can not be used, hence not to be used for structural application statement on the website. This disclaimer was placed so that people would not try to use G5 on mesh blankets because it does not have that slow cure wicking attribute. Thats all. Those who thumb their nose at the use of G5 on a cue with reference to that specific are truly misinformed as everything that is written on a website must not always be taken for face value. There are alway legal ramifications to consider.
I use Garolite LE material for my shaft inserts and have used G5 for for 9 years for this application. I have built about 400 shafts using G5 and like Omega with their black phenolic inserts have not seen one failure. Like the ferrules, not one!!!
I am not knocking you or any other person who claims "not on my cues" with reference to 5 minute epoxy and if you use goose crap on your threaded widgets thats your business. I am just pointing out here that there is a history of the use of these materials in cue making and the envelope limits of it's physical properties are not compromised with reference to cue performance and expectations, not even close. The parent material (wood in this case) of a welded joint is where the strength of the joint should be referenced. Every material selected for an application has an upside as well as a downside. It is up to the replete CM to decide how he wants to do his thing. Ductility, brittleness, and wicking into the fiber of some woods would be something to consider as a downside when using slow cure stuff.
The mountain climbers rope thing was just a comparative analogy to make my point. Obviously the thicker rope would have a safer fudge factor but would be heavier for the climber to carry with him. Again, and up side and a downside. And for the record 5 minute epoxy does not cure in five minutes, it take 7 days. Take a ferrule and fill it with G5 and in 7 days hit the center with a center punch and a hammer. Me thinks you will be impressed with that experiment.
As far as the pin installation, G5 is not a good material to use IMO. It sets up too fast, is too thick and is prone to higher hydraulic forces in the blind hole because it does not equalize as easy as thinner stuff.. I used to use Hysol but now use BSI 30 minute because I can put the cue between centers in 24 hours. The Hysol was a 36 hour set time.
I also use BSI 30 minute on my points also. It is over 6000 psi and I purchase the 9 oz. kits from a supplier that moves a ton of it on the internet and it is not shelf aged before I get it. I use to use 105 / 206 but I found that that stuff can go bad if it is around the shop to long. Fresh epoxy is an important point to consider.
The subject of which glues to use in cues is a very important. In my view one of the most important one. We all have our comfort area with which glues to use. One thing I know is that slow cue epoxies are not good for coring as they can wick into the wood fiber. This is not good in a gap filling applications and IMO is the biggest cause for buzzing other a the bad A joint deal. Expansion poly glues like Axcel or GG are the way to go IMO.
Again everyone has their own bend to the brim and will do things in their own way. I am no different. Sharing our thoughts and techniques here on AZ is always good as we are practicing peer check and review. We don't have to agree on every point and we can all do as we please when we work on our own cues.
Rick
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