The one thing on a cue that should be able to be taken apart if the need arises is the joint screw. 5 minute epoxy is the best glue for this and after 25+ years I haven't had one come loose yet.
glue
- Thread starter treed
- Start date
wicking
I mean the epoxy is absorbed by the wood. It's like a sealer coat. Once I've sealed the wood this way and it has dried, no more epoxy will be absorbed and I get a nice full, void free annulus. Everyone else probably has some other slick way they do coring but this works very well for me.
Robin Snyder
I mean the epoxy is absorbed by the wood. It's like a sealer coat. Once I've sealed the wood this way and it has dried, no more epoxy will be absorbed and I get a nice full, void free annulus. Everyone else probably has some other slick way they do coring but this works very well for me.
Robin Snyder
RBC
Deceased
steve must have used NON-CRAPPY epoxy on the other 5000 cues he's built
it's called "shit happens". happens to the best.
we are dealing with man made chemicals that dont ALWAYS do what they are supposed to do.
i had some epoxy that would not dry, would not harden.
manufacturer said i mixed it wrong . that was bullshit
Brent
I'm with you on this one!
I've had both, bad epoxy and poorly mixed epoxy.
Just to be safe, we always keep the cup. Meaning that the cup we mix the epoxy in is set aside to make sure it cures properly. If it doesn't, we pull those cues or shafts and redo whatever it is we glued up.
We go through quite a bit of epoxy, so you can imagine that we have lots of cups at all times checking to make sure they cure.
We do this even though we use epoxy dispensers to ensure the right mix.
Royce
:deadhorse::shocked2:
I was going to add my three cents and provide specific reasons for using G5 in certain areas and other glues in other areas and most importantly why but with all the experts chiming in, there is no need for me to do so.
Let me see if I have all this correct.
1) some write well and have mounds of statistical data which sounds great and makes a good argument
2) others dislike some and just seem to want to argue regardless what the best is or isn't
3) others dislike the disliking people
4) others think excessive over engineering is the best method to build a cue without any regard to resonance, hit and playability or how that over engineering negatively affects the cues resonance. The strongest is not the best when you want build a cue with feel.
Someone said this.... I'm going to ad lib what was actually stated because I don't want anyone to feel targeted or target their harmonically built cues so on that note he stated that basically he uses the strongest, toughest epoxies because they cling better and become much harder.
Super-Duper 40,000 psi glue that becomes "much harder" is not the best choice in certain construction areas as it stiffens and hardens the cues playability. To make a point, using some glues can mean the difference between playing with a steel rod -vs- using proper glues making the cue resonate like a finely tuned billiard instrument with feel.
Putting a cue together is more than just using the best, toughest, highest strength glues but what is best for the specific purpose/application to make the best structurally engineered cue while still maintaining the best resonance and playability. Super-Duper hardening glues defeat that purpose.
Question: is there any difference in feel, hit, resonance when using lets say G5 -vs- West or 3M in certain parts of construction and which parts if there is any difference? Let's see who can answer this question and why there is a difference if there is in fact any difference at all. I have my experience and opinion, lets hear yours. Anyone?
BTW - Happy 4th!
OK Mr. B, I''ll Bite,
As a percursor to my opinion I would like to declare that all I have to say here is my wish to share thoughts and ideas I have been exposed to my my 10 years in this industry. Why because I have been on the other side of that coin here on AZ by some great posts by others that have benefitted me over the years.
If you do something different and are happy with those results please note that I am happy for you and as I said everyone has their own bend to the brim. That simply means has there own way of doing things, there is no hidden passive agressive inuendo to that term nor is it intended to be.
Now back to the glue issues:
Joe, I think that flexibility is part of what your are talking about I think. The reason that G5 is not the super duper psi stuff is because when they put in that additive in mix it makes it cure faster and thus the PSI is much lower. Much lower but more that strong enough to use on cues in the following component areas.
1) Ferrules
2) Joint Collars ( non threaded with v grooved tenons )
3) Butt Caps ( non threaded with v grooved tenons )
All of the above with v grooved tenons to act as keyway and increase the surface area of the welded joint in cross section.
Why because these units are not 12 or 4 inches long and when you butter them and the tenon up you can be absolutely sure that the annulus between the ID and the OD with be gap filled completely. Because it sets so fast, the gap is filled without wicking in to some woods.
I don't use this material to glue metal rings, metal pins or metal inserts for many reasons as I have already stated in a previous post but I do know CMs that do and they have reliability history. I personally like to pre glue metal rings between fiber with super duper epoxy and then install that stack with the joint or butt cap with G5.
Anyone who does not think G5 makes the grade for strength for cue construction in these ares, just get a house cue and put a tenon on the rear with v grooves. Wait 7 days and put the cue in a jagged jaw vice real tight and put a 36" pipe wrench of the butt cap and torque the crap out of it and observe what breaks.
I truly believe and have seen with my own eyes that using epoxy for coring works but I must state that it can sometimes create a buzz in the cue now and then because it can leave a striation or air gap plus the wicking factor. When glueing flat surfaces with clamping I don't think wicking is a big factor however. If the dowel / core fit is too tight, the glue with justs piston out. If it is too big you can get the air gaps. I know you need to be slow and in plunging and twist the dowel while inserting and all of that but Darrin Hill and I cut up some bad one and saw the gaps.
Darrin told me years ago that about 1 out of 10 forearms he glued using epoxy buzzed and could not be used. He changed to Expansion Poly Glue with water as the catalyst and I went with for the ride as I had started coring at that time. He and I have been Happy campers since. I had one buzz cue out of over 75 since then and it was because there was an over elongated 3/4" hole where the gun drill popped thru that was too big for the expansion material to handle. Lessons learned for me.
As far a resonance is concerned I can't comment but I would think your experience in this area is correct concerning harder expoxy creating a higher freq. resonance, that does make sense to me.
I closing I wish to make a blanket statement concerning the use of G5 on cues;
I personally had been working on and building cues for about 5 years when I discovered AZ Billiards and lurked here listening to views and comments of other CMs for a while before posting. What I was surprised to see was that many CMs looked down on the use of Quick set epoxy with a utter disdain. The "not on my cues" thing was repeated over and over and if you dared to admit that you used this stuff anywhere on a cue, the Lord of the Flies collective reared it's ugly head. That's the Urban legend that occurs in any business or discipline.
This bothered me a lot because I personally knew of it's use by top tier and HOFer's that had used it in ways as I have described above. Then one day someone posted the disclaimer from the West Systems site about not using G5 for structural applications. I called the chemical engineer on staff at West and he proudly told me that G5 was the strongest Quick Sets in the world and Quick Set in general were far better than it was years ago.
The statement on the website was sort of a legal disclaimer because people were using G5 on the blanket fiber material to try to patch fiberglass boats and it was failing because the material was too viscous and did not wick, thus the structure of the repair did not have a chance of working.
If you look into the testing of glues it is almost always done in tests where clamping pressure is used in a Face to Face application. You don't see them doing destructive testing of bored out tapered rods that are glued to tenons with a non clamped that is gap filled.
You got to do those test on your own. Hence I am not a closet user of this material and have my own point of view or bend to my brim. LOL
JMO,
Rick
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Don't feel bad Brent I have some epoxy over here right now that won't dry. And guess what? I too was told I didn't mix it right. I guess all the other epoxies mix correctly on my scale except this one. The bad part is that it's from one of my favorite suppliers.
I think the term "wicking" has slightly been taken out of context by folks who are un-aware of the possibility of embracing it. In my opinion wicking is a vital part of solid construction and if some simple practice and common sense is used then glue starvation simply wont be an issue anymore. The lack of wicking is what would scare the hell out of me because at that point you have something hard which is only slightly attached to the surface of something.
The glue certainly needs to penetrate the wood to make a strong bond. My fear has always been that if the annulus has some certain volume and I completely fill it with epoxy, and then some of the epoxy soaks into the wood, then the annulus cannot still be full. And since epoxy bonds quite well to itself, I'm not worried about my core being "only slightly attached".
Robin Snyder
Edit: But thanks for the food for thought!!
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wicking
Thank you for explaining that.
I don't know about everyone else but I have had big problems with epoxy's and glues .
I wish everyone could get together and form a list of known epoxy's that we shouldn't use .
MMike
Thank you for explaining that.
I don't know about everyone else but I have had big problems with epoxy's and glues .
I wish everyone could get together and form a list of known epoxy's that we shouldn't use .
MMike
Just as a note on the wicking issue, the end grain of a piece of wood will absorb the most glue. The outer diameter of the piece or your tenon in our case will not wick nearly as much. It is also worth noting that end grain to end grain has the least strength as it concerns wood joints.The strength of your joint is in the diameter of the tenon. So considering those factors I would say that wicking has less of a factor on overall strength of a joint and more about the possibility of creating a buzz. Having stated all that if one knows the problem area's it is not that difficult to compensate for those variables through design and preparation. Leave proper clearances between end grain and seal your ends before gluing.
Great post. Also epoxies don't wick into metal either.
Adhesion is what glues are all about.
I had a forearm/handle glued up that after a month suddenly decided to do the "Charleston" dance move. I can only guess as to why but I think it was due to the water heater in that room leaking, more moisture.
At any rate, I'm 5'9'' and 275 lbs. Ive lifted weights since 14 yrs old and have been competitive in martial arts tourney's. I took that forearm/ handle and after seeing it spin like a slinky, smashed it on the concrete out back and the maple split between the ebony points, NOT the glue bonds !!! I use West System for my points. Needless to say it is strong as hell. I use G-5 for certain things and have Never has it fail.
To each his own, live and let live, being your name isn't on someone else's cue...just yours.
i was told i had to mix a minimum of 4 ounces for the epoxy to activate
4 ounces? are you fukn kidding me.
that's enough to glue up half a dozen cues ,
the soles back onto my gym shoes and my wife's broken knick knack.
i tossed that stuff into the garbage
with the west 105/206 i can mix as little as .100 an ounce, thanks to dickie for turning me onto a $6 scale that goes to .000 places
jake hit the nail on the head about wicking
i call it penetration , i like that term better, must be my dirty mind
it's supposed to penetrate
first time i used west, was gluing up a stack of 4 veneers with 5 black papers and the topper wood
mixed up .500 + .100 ounce , .600 oz total
spread on all the veneers & paper, both sides,let sit for about 10 minutes,
i come back out to shop and it looked as if i hadnt put any on at all
it PENETRATED
woooohoooo! epiphany! i thought damn, that's a good thing !
scramble to mix up another .600 oz
hit it again , waited another 10 minutes
this time it was all wet and stayed wet
same procedure with a-joint tenon
stand the forearm up vertically, fill the hole & coat the face
coat the tenon & face.
come back 10 or 15 minutes later,
depending on the porosity of the wood,
the level in the forearm may drop noticeably and tenon isnt as wet as it was
gee, could it have penetrated???
i just keep hitting it with the juice until it wont take anymore.
can even force penetrate it with tailstock pressure
there's plenty of working time until it starts to thicken up
and then when it's together, i throw lathe into backgear & let it spin,
for a few hours. dont want that epoxy drooping to one side or another.
and like rick says, epoxy isnt going to penetrate metal rings
all we can hope for is good adhesion
sand with 180, wipe clean with thinner and dont touch them
i dont want pizza grease or skin oils on my gluing surfaces
that's my story and i'm STICKING to it
new information
Brent, your observation about penetration was the same one I made which convinced me to pre-glue things. I re-bore my core holes after my first coat of epoxy in there is dry, then juice everything up again and assemble. I make almost all my cues with a full core and I do a lot of cored one-piece butts, so this is of particular interest to me..
Hearing that I may be taking it a step too far is interesting to me since I really don't really know any other cuemakers very well, have never been to anyone else's shop and have never seen anyone else make a cue, so I come up with my own techniques for things and settle on the ones that work by my own trial and error . Generally, I have no idea what others do.
Once in a while I see or hear of something on here where I say to myself "What a good idea!" or "Maybe I'll try that." or even "Damn! I'm doing this all wrong!" Sometimes it's "I think he's full of shit, but hey, I better try this". Or "This guy may be an asshole, but he really knows how to make a cue!" Not too much of that last one, but it comes up.
These things may be obvious to those who have made hundreds of cues but not to me yet..
Occasionally I'll get a PM out of the blue from someone I trust with some new information, which I always appreciate and value, but carefully test anyway.
I think I'll try gluing my cores as Brent described, giving them a pre-soak, then adding more glue, then assembling. It would save me a couple steps and still get the penetration I want. What a good idea!
Robin Snyder
Brent, your observation about penetration was the same one I made which convinced me to pre-glue things. I re-bore my core holes after my first coat of epoxy in there is dry, then juice everything up again and assemble. I make almost all my cues with a full core and I do a lot of cored one-piece butts, so this is of particular interest to me..
Hearing that I may be taking it a step too far is interesting to me since I really don't really know any other cuemakers very well, have never been to anyone else's shop and have never seen anyone else make a cue, so I come up with my own techniques for things and settle on the ones that work by my own trial and error . Generally, I have no idea what others do.
Once in a while I see or hear of something on here where I say to myself "What a good idea!" or "Maybe I'll try that." or even "Damn! I'm doing this all wrong!" Sometimes it's "I think he's full of shit, but hey, I better try this". Or "This guy may be an asshole, but he really knows how to make a cue!" Not too much of that last one, but it comes up.
These things may be obvious to those who have made hundreds of cues but not to me yet..
Occasionally I'll get a PM out of the blue from someone I trust with some new information, which I always appreciate and value, but carefully test anyway.
I think I'll try gluing my cores as Brent described, giving them a pre-soak, then adding more glue, then assembling. It would save me a couple steps and still get the penetration I want. What a good idea!
Robin Snyder
i was kinda in the same boat
no one showed me, or told me how to do it,
just kinda stumble thru and learn along the way as i do everything
hope it works for ya, i dont wanna be the "full of shit guy" :grin:
i use gorilla for cores 99% of the time
5 minute for pins & ferrules
tite bond for a pre-glued ring pak, if all wood and or fiber and or linen rings, then west onto the cue
west if rings are any other material , metal, black paper, etc.
havent had any disasters that i know of , yet, except for one cue in BRUNEI,
joint pin loose.
the sonofa***** just hasto be half way round the world away, couldnt be one of the local cues
and that cue was done while using the epoxy i mentioned above that didnt set ALL the time.
i cant be positive that it's what i used though. too long ago.
I am still experimenting with the glue I use for cores. Sometimes I use epoxy, which is pretty technique-intensive, and sometimes I use GG, which is quicker and easier. I get good results with both.
I suspect that the variation from one piece of wood to the next is greater than the difference between glue types from a playability standpoint, assuming they are both used effectively (I'm not EVEN going to say correctly), .
My point, and it's not a new one, is that there are LOTS of techniques and materials which, if used in certain ways, will yield outstanding results. "Best" one? There may well be no such thing.
Robin Snyder
I suspect that the variation from one piece of wood to the next is greater than the difference between glue types from a playability standpoint, assuming they are both used effectively (I'm not EVEN going to say correctly), .
My point, and it's not a new one, is that there are LOTS of techniques and materials which, if used in certain ways, will yield outstanding results. "Best" one? There may well be no such thing.
Robin Snyder
Robin,
Take one of the cured forearms or full core blanks you core and hold it between 2 fingers about 3 inches from the short end so it can swing freely pivoting between your two fingers when you push the bottom with your other hand.
Now pick up a big box wrench or something steel and tap the wood so it swings freely while you hold the joint end right next to your ear. After I did this, there was no question in my mind that I was going with the GG or Accel poly glue with a few sprits of water on the glue buttering the dowel before insertion.
Rick
I've gotten dizzy trying to read this thread and I can't explain why nobody has mentioned a major ingredient that has to be used when mixing and using epoxy for structural gluing jobs. I've been a West user since 1994 and have never used the slow epoxy without adding a little or a lot of filler. I use Cab-o-sil which I bought in a ten pound bag and is enough for two lifetimes. You can add enough filler to have the epoxy change the viscosity of the glue to that of peanut butter and still have it work just fine. As a thicker material the glue fills up all the voids and still glues with penetration and full stength. It is the only thing I core with and I haven't had a single core buzz. Filled glue also machines very well. It turns off in long tough strips and can be tapped and threaded.
I have thought about the fillers before but didn't know that they did not effect the bond strength. That is a good bit of info and next time I am epoxing cores I will be sure to try it.
Thank you for the tip it is appreciated
It has no effect on the bond strength and it can fill very large voids. It also improves epoxy/metal bonds and 'A' joints.