glue

[cutter]

Joey,


I am not knocking you or any other person who claims "not on my cues" with reference to 5 minute epoxy and if you use goose crap on your threaded widgets thats your business.


Rick

Well you sure "knocked" me in your PM.
Please feel free to put it up on the forum. I'm sure the members
would like to see your real side.
I decided to not waste band width. That's why I deleted my post.
Learned a long time ago, that Rick knows all. That's why the world goes to
Chicago to learn how to really build a cue.
Oh by the way, why I don't like 5 minute Devcon has nothing to do with initial strength. Still waiting on life span of poly glue.

If you answer please limit to 5000 words.

 

[Canadian cue]

The only part of construction I use five minute epoxy is for filling in my engraved logo. The reason 24 hour epoxy has a greater strength is because it penetrates the surfaces being glued much better. Five minute epoxy cures way to fast to create a good bond. The strength of the actual epoxy is a non issue. Having said that I do not do allot of repair so speed has never really been a factor in my construction.

 

[whammo57]

What is up with this 5-minute epoxy craze?
They're about the worst for construction epoxy.
What's the hurry?
Use a slowset epoxy that clings better and becomes much harder for construction pieces.

I use max 5 minute epoxy for sealer, joint screws, end caps and phenolic shaft inserts. It works great and I have never had anything come loose.......... on the contrary, I have had trouble taking things apart where I used it. After it cures, it is practically inert and stable. It doesn't shrink or swell and it does not absorb any detectable moisture. It makes a great base for most any clear coat.

I do take care to clean the material and I use glue grooves and wipe the glue into the surface of any material I am using it on.

In an emergency I have used it to glue a fan blade on a shaft without a key or a set screw. The motor died after about 7 years and the blade was still on there. I have glued steel, aluminum, brass, wood and most plastics (not delrin) and never have had a falure.

It is a non issue..............

Kim

 

[Travis Niklich]

deleted .....

 

[scdiveteam]

Well you sure "knocked" me in your PM.
Please feel free to put it up on the forum. I'm sure the members
would like to see your real side.
I decided to not waste band width. That's why I deleted my post.
Learned a long time ago, that Rick knows all. That's why the world goes to
Chicago to learn how to really build a cue.
Oh by the way, why I don't like 5 minute Devcon has nothing to do with initial strength. Still waiting on life span of poly glue.

If you answer please limit to 5000 words.

Steve,

Go ahead a post my pm. It is real and and non vulgar. I stand by every word I said in the two sentences.

If you don't like what I post here don't read it. I told you this before but you are like a broken record and cant seem to help yourself. BTW your character is showing. LOL.

When you quote my post and then leave a comment about " it is not worth it " and leave my quote up there, some people might see that as taking a shot at someone. I know I did. Are you saying that you did not take a shot a me??? Now all of a sudden you are the injured one. HA HA!

Your a funny guy Steve!! Now you wish to take it public! What a nice way for Mr. Voting member to act. Maybe someday you can be the GRAND HIGH EXHULTED MYSTIC RULER or the Poobah Himself of your collective.

All I said in my pm is that your actions were not befitting of a officer.

Officers should be trained in leadership skills and not stoop to petty behavior.

This forum is about sharing information. I never told you or anyone how to do anything and never would. I am very careful to only post my opinion. I refuse to be intimadated by anything you suggest. If my threads are long that just because I am a writer and like details. That's my nature. You just like to make your innuendos.

Grow up!

There is an old saying up here in Chicago. Don't dish it if you can't take it!

Not quite 5000 words because I did not want to make you angry with me!!!

Rick

 

[scdiveteam]

Another great infomercial brought to you by Esoteric cues on the Rick knows more than all the other cuemakers channel. Written and approved by the non-stop spin machine that is Esoteric Promotions.

And the cuemakers of Azbilliards wonder why all the great cuemakers have long ago checked out of this place. It's not because they don't read the posts here it's that they have grow tired of offering sound advice to new cuemakers only to be told that they have been doing it wrong by some guys who have only been making cues a couple years.

Hey Travis,

Thanks for spelling my name right.

Rick

 

[JoeyInCali]

The only part of construction I use five minute epoxy is for filling in my engraved logo. The reason 24 hour epoxy has a greater strength is because it penetrates the surfaces being glued much better. Five minute epoxy cures way to fast to create a good bond. The strength of the actual epoxy is a non issue. Having said that I do not do allot of repair so speed has never really been a factor in my construction.

That has fallen on deaf ears too long already.
I give up.

 

[whammo57]

what are most using for brass inserts,i've had a few quick releases that have not held(mine and others).i think most is due to being left in car in extreme heat,and the lack of more threads on the insert.thx

Being left in a hot car will not damage any 5 minute epoxy that I use. When I change a joint screw, I have to heat it really hot with a torch. A car interior does not get that hot.

The temperature in a hot car will damage some finishes and may cause some cues to warp depending on construction methods.


BTW

Are you sorry that you asked that question????


LOL

Kim

 

[cutter]

Hey Rick, atleast I was one.

Now for my opinion.
Please read this article.
http://www.adhesivesmag.com/article...with-stabilized-mercaptans-for-curing-epoxies

My one and only problem with 5 minute eposy is the use of Mercaptans.
Cheap 5 minute epoxy uses cheap mercaptan, which attracts moisture and is
also not thermally stable. Why do I say this, well back a ways I owned a golf club
company. We manufactured promotional golf clubs. 80000 sets. Or to do the math for Rick, over 640000 individual golf clubs. Takes a lot of epoxy to do that, so I had access to the chemists at a few epoxy companies. Guess what they told me to
avoid. Mercaptan based curing. Golf clubs get abused more than pool cues, but we never had a single head come off. Now I can't count how many locals did their club assembly with Devcon 5 minute. Made nice money gluing the heads back on for them.
So feel free to keep using it, if your cues will never go to a hot humid location.

So Rick, go stick it in your deep dish pizza.

 

[JoeyInCali]

sky is blue

 

[scdiveteam]

Hey Rick, atleast I was one.

Now for my opinion.
Please read this article.
http://www.adhesivesmag.com/article...with-stabilized-mercaptans-for-curing-epoxies

My one and only problem with 5 minute eposy is the use of Mercaptans.
Cheap 5 minute epoxy uses cheap mercaptan, which attracts moisture and is
also not thermally stable. Why do I say this, well back a ways I owned a golf club
company. We manufactured promotional golf clubs. 80000 sets. Or to do the math for Rick, over 640000 individual golf clubs. Takes a lot of epoxy to do that, so I had access to the chemists at a few epoxy companies. Guess what they told me to
avoid. Mercaptan based curing. Golf clubs get abused more than pool cues, but we never had a single head come off. Now I can't count how many locals did their club assembly with Devcon 5 minute. Made nice money gluing the heads back on for them.
So feel free to keep using it, if your cues will never go to a hot humid location.

So Rick, go stick it in your deep dish pizza.

Steve,

So over 40+ years of cues in the field is not good enough for you to get my point with reference to quick cure epoxies. I know plenty of other cue makers who use G5 for many applications and have for years. All of that time these cues are being shipped all over the world into many different climates and hold up just fine thank you.

You bring up your experience with metal to metal or metal to fiberglass or carbon fiber on a very small dia. hozzel on a golf club as your argument for your opinion. That is not only a invalid comparison but it is way beyond any apples to oranges logic I can think of. Last time I checked, cues were made of wood, phenolic, juma, fiber, metal, plastic, ivory and bone ect. I also said that I did not use it on the joint pin for various reasons. Clubs are typically stored in car trunks and travel at arc speeds into impact up to and over 110 mph.

BTW, it gets over 100+ degrees in Chicago my friend all the time with relative humidity wet bulb readings that are off the wall so there again your here say and innuendo that anyone who uses 5 minute epoxy is somehow creating an inferior product waiting for the opportunity to fail with heat a moisture. Hogwash. You imply that if anyone continues with such a dangerous behavior and doesn't heed your warning that their cues will just fall apart someday without warning in a warm and humid temperate area. Poppycock!!!

You and others who knock the use of G5 (which is a far superior product to the devon used many years ago) always do so in a way where you look down or berate anyway who dares to defend it's use. ( How dare that I should disagree with a voting member ) I like how you call five minute epoxy cheap as to imply innuendo that reflects poorly on anyone who dares to use it. BTW, Per unit volume G5 is not cheap as a price point.

This forum is for sharing information and peer check and review, that is why I follow it and participate. Part of that means opening up and telling the truth about observations over time. Not continuing urban legends that exist. If you wish to do this thats fine also, just insert JMO instead of posting someone eles's quote and then making a snide remark while leaving the quote on the forum. Bad Form!!!! Agreeing to disagree in a friendly wayis what gentlemen do. How would you feel if someone did that to you!!!

I would venture to say that most Cue Makers use 5 minute epoxy on their ferrules and as I stated before I have never seen one fail that I installed in the last 10 years and I had a very busy cue repair business at my facility and have built 156 cues with most having two shafts. Again not one glue failure. So for you to be correct in your position taken I would go out on a limb and suggest that you did not read my long winded posts here or you think I am a lier. The ferrules is as close to a comparative cue to golf club analogy I can think of.

As for your trying to give the impression that I would not respond to the question concerning the life span of the poly glues, that point has been asked and answered on another form. If you wish to, please call Franklin Co. and ask to speak to a chemical engineer. BTW, the life span of the polymers that make up that ploy glue is measured in many thousands of years and it would last much much longer if it were not for slight exposure from gamma and other cosmic rays.

Also as I stated before that I personally am not knocking you or anyone who uses the other products on certain areas of their cues. Remember the bend to the brim reference. There are a myriad of products available to today cue makers and each one has it's own set of parameters to study for each site specific use on a cue. They also have their positive and negative features and components. It is up to each of us to choose the products that wish to use in there shop. There are always trade offs for different reasons per application.



As to anyone who does not like me for my views and long posts I would say, the devil is always in the detail of any subject and I myself am passionate about the subjects I post on here.

Anyone who likes to dish me in public needs to know that it does not bother me at all. I do have more respect for them as they don't do so behind the back and at least I know not to waste a Xmas card and stamp. LOL Haters will be haters for their own reason and I will leave it at that.

Life is too short and it is always better to make friends and play well in the sandbox we call cue making. JMO


Rick

 

[JoeyInCali]

So over 40+ years of cues in the field is not good enough for you to get my point with reference to quick cure epoxies. I know plenty of other cue makers who use G5 for many applications and have for years. All of that time these cues are being shipped all over the world into many different climates and hold up just fine, thanks you.

No, they're not holding just fine.
So many have mystery buzzes.
If you could prevent one possibility by just using a slow set epoxy that has already been proven better b/c we use it for real stressful area, you should do it.
The 5-minute epoxy gives you zero advantage in cue construction.
ZERO. Unless, you want to cut that collar, ferrule, sleeve or insert after a few minutes.
The original poster wanted a suggestion for epoxy to use on UNILOC insert.
AGAIN, 5-minute epoxy is NOT HIS BEST CHOICE.
That insert does not have much gluing surface.
Worse, it's a round part with fine threads.
He's already had one too many come loose.

 

[scdiveteam]

No, they're not holding just fine.
So many have mystery buzzes.
If you could prevent one possibility by just using a slow set epoxy that has already been proven better b/c we use it for real stressful area, you should do it.
The 5-minute epoxy gives you zero advantage in cue construction.
ZERO. Unless, you want to cut that collar, ferrule, sleeve or insert after a few minutes.
The original poster wanted a suggestion for epoxy to use on UNILOC insert.
AGAIN, 5-minute epoxy is NOT HIS BEST CHOICE.
That insert does not have much gluing surface.
Worse, it's a round part with fine threads.
He's already had one too many come loose.

Joe,

For this application I agree with you and would use slow set for sure just like doing a pin install.

And you have magic abilities allowing you to establish the root cause of buzzes on cues and can tell the epoxy that was used. You have X-ray eyes that also analyze the chemical properties within a cue. Yea Right.

Rick

 

[JoeyInCali]

For this application I agree with you and would use slow set for sure just like doing a pin install.

Good. All that mumbo jumbo about G5 was a waste.
Heaven forbid someone uses 5-minute epoxy on his pins so he can push it straight while glue is setting in minutes.

And you have magic abilities allowing you to establish the root cause of buzzes on cues and can tell the epoxy that was used. You have X-ray eyes that also analyze the chemical properties within a cue. Yea Right.

You're dense and a little off the mark.
By not using a 5-minute epoxy, you at least eliminate one possibility.
A slow set epoxy ( applied right ) will coat the woods/parts and provide a much better bond than your favorite 5-minute epoxy.

 

[scdiveteam]

Joey,

I have had two Zyler cues come into my shop in 10 years.

One had a very bad buzz. Would I be correct in making the assumption that 50 % of his cues have a buzz. No, that would not be fair. Would I be correct in saying that it was because of the epoxy he used and that I think it wicked in the wood creating voids because he used a slow cure in an area that did not have clamping pressure in the annulus between the ID and OD dimension. Or maybe the A joint was done by his apprentice. That would not be fair either.

So knock off the mystery buzz stuff.

The sky is gray today not blue.

Just for the record, Kerry' cue was indeed very solid. The buzz was in the ferrule. I turned down the tenon and installed a thru hole melamine and glued it up. Guess what glue I used? Hint hint, I turned it down in 30 minutes.

Rick

 

[cutter]

You know Rick, you're pretty good at writing, but you reading comprehesion sucks.
I never attacked you, but I do remember you comparing me to the Gestapo, and just now
saying my behavior was unbecoming an officer.
I also can't over look the voting member dig at the ACA. Guess 30+ (average cuemakers)
think enough of me to let me be a voting member.
I have disagred with your opinion, which you immediately jump out and attack me.
I have never dished G5, I don't like 5 minute epoxies with mercaptan, so live with it.
The other cuemakers are big boys so let them read and decide.
I will never again offer you help when you can't get you POS cnc machine to work.
I will never ever again post in a thread that contains your verbose drivel.
I expect my Christmas card to be sealed with 5 minute epoxy.
And as a parting shot, I will attack you. Your method of cutting into the forearm for points and
then refilling them with epxoy is the stupidiest cuemaking technique I have ever seen.
So now you can say I attacked you.
Save the words Rick, I'm not reading your reply

 

[scdiveteam]

You know Rick, you're pretty good at writing, but you reading comprehesion sucks.
I never attacked you, but I do remember you comparing me to the Gestapo, and just now
saying my behavior was unbecoming an officer.
I also can't over look the voting member dig at the ACA. Guess 30+ (average cuemakers)
think enough of me to let me be a voting member.
I have disagred with your opinion, which you immediately jump out and attack me.
I have never dished G5, I don't like 5 minute epoxies with mercaptan, so live with it.
The other cuemakers are big boys so let them read and decide.
I will never again offer you help when you can't get you POS cnc machine to work.
I will never ever again post in a thread that contains your verbose drivel.
I expect my Christmas card to be sealed with 5 minute epoxy.
And as a parting shot, I will attack you. Your method of cutting into the forearm for points and
then refilling them with epxoy is the stupidiest cuemaking technique I have ever seen.
So now you can say I attacked you.
Save the words Rick, I'm not reading your reply

Steve,

Not a bad way to end a discussion.

At least people who view will see more than one point of view.

Just for the record Steve, if you take one of my blanks before the handle is installed and bend it until it breaks the 30" dowel I assure your the filled mill grooves start points in the dowel will not fail. Why because I do destructive testing on my proprietary procedures. You know there is more than one way to skin a cat. Just because something does not fit in your little box or way you doing things does not make it bad or wrong. Experience is the best teacher. Some people strive to find a better or different ways of doing things. I see it a being resourceful and I think I am the only person who turns the forearm on the x of the dowel and then cuts the grooves. Not sure though. But I do it because I get nearly perfect concentricity on all the points on my veneer stack and never have to adjust the centers on the blank all the way down to final taper pass.

If I core the same forearm after the points are turned down the unit would be slightly canted due to various reasons such as tapered collet transfer error, chuck runout, and concentricity issues that would happen when gluing the forearm to the dowel because there has to be some gap between the OD and ID when coring. Now add up the possible variables and you can get points that are off right away. My glueing the forearm first and turning the x between centers you get a very concentric unit.

Call me stupid or whatever, I like the results I get thank you.

Don't knock something you have not tried might apply here.

As to something you can relate to as a pro, some pilots control and fly the plane from preflight to tie down while some get themselves in positions where the plane is flying them. Having a circumspect flight plan with all contingencies covering in advance diverts cockpit workload and allows the pilot to stay the coarse with control even when the stuff hit the fan. I like to view cue making just like following the flight plan. Process control with a reason.

Rick

 

[JoeyInCali]

Joey,

I have had two Zyler cues come into my shop in 10 years.

One had a very bad buzz. Would I be correct in making the assumption that 50 % of his cues have a buzz. No, that would not be fair. Would I be correct in saying that it was because of the epoxy he used and that I think it wicked in the wood creating voids because he used a slow cure in an area that did not have clamping pressure in the annulus between the ID and OD dimension. Or maybe the A joint was done by his apprentice. That would not be fair either.

So knock off the mystery buzz stuff.

The sky is gray today not blue.

Rick

Or I can assume you're full of sh!t and arguing dirty after flipflopping on your epoxy argument .
I had no hand in construction of Z's cues except oversized woods.
And there's a solution to slow set epoxies wicking too much.
And don't think everyone was/is infallible to glue failure.
Don't make repair people come forward and mention all the names they've repaired.
They include hall of famers.

 

[scdiveteam]

Or I can assume you're full of sh!t and arguing dirty after flipflopping on your epoxy argument .
I had no hand in construction of Z's cues except oversized woods.
And there's a solution to slow set epoxies wicking too much.
And don't think everyone was/is infallible to glue failure.
Don't make repair people come forward and mention all the names they've repaired.
They include hall of famers.

Arguing Dirty???? What an interesting point of view. Reminds me of the Pot calling Kettle Black!!

Boy Joey I said it would not be fair and was only joking. Chill out, be cool, take it easy!

I am not flip flopping btw because I use strict shop procedures I am happy with.

I use slow set on clamped points and my pin as I stated before.

 

[CamposCues]

Off Topic a Bit

I see both points and don't care to argue them.

I do think an interesting test, if it hasn't been done already, would be to set two pins on either end of the same piece of wood, with the same amount of each epoxy. Maybe even clear coat the wood. Then see which would break loose easiest, with the least amount of heat, and the least amount of damage to the wood and or clear.

I'd probably choose to use the easier one, on pins at least. I don't think either would fail under normal wear and tear but it sure sucks when you can't get a bent one out without starting the whole cue on fire or drilling it out. I have had a couple, one a McDermott, that would not come out at all. It was frustrating.