GOAT Hunt

[sjm]

the griffs US opens now are more like turning stone in status, i'm thinking. BUT there was a US open 14.1 in 2000 that was a big deal. ralf won. there are some matches on youtube, and lou figuoera re-posted a tournament report on it on here some year ago.

that's another problem when comparing eras, some tournaments pops up and goes away. like the IPT, which arguably was a big notch in efren's tournament career

Yes, the 2013 US Open 8ball was another exception, drawing an elite field at the Rio, but in general, the US Open 8ball, 10ball, one pocket and banks and 14.1 are not even close to being major titles, about the equal of things like the Glass City or Music City Open. The US Open 14.1 was definitely a major up to 1992 and, as somebody noted, again in 2000. If we really want to go back to 1974, and I'm not sure we need to as we're focusing on the current generation, the omission of PBT titles, the main pro pool tour in the world from about 1985-99, is a giant problem. Earl probably won over ten of them, and their omission discounts his accomplishments.

The biggest problem with the list, which is pretty darn good, other than omission of the All-Japan and the Sands Reno, is the omission of Eurotour titles. Eurotour events have 256 player fields and are very hard to win and are very nearly the equal in prestige to wins in the European Championships.

Include Euro-tour titles and Ralf is probably well ahead of everyone in major championships. I suspect he has won over a dozen of them. Niels Feijen has probably won close to ten of them, too.

 

[Badpenguin]

The biggest problem with the list, which is pretty darn good, other than omission of the All-Japan and the Sancs Reno, is the omission of Eurotour titles. Eurotour events have 256 player fields and are very hard to win and are very nearly the equal in prestige to wins in the European Championships.

Include Euro-tour titles and Ralf is probably well ahead of everyone in major championships. I suspect he has won over a dozen of them. Niels Feijen has probably won close to ten of them, too.

The All-Japan is in there. I'll look around for The Sands, IPT, and Eurotour stats.

 

[sjm]

The All-Japan is in there. I'll look around for The Sands, IPT, and Eurotour stats.

This is all an inexact science and you've done a great job to this point. Please take my comments in stride.

Personally, I'd call the US Bar Table Championships a major, and Shane has won a bunch of them. His 22 majors in rotation pool sounds a little low to me.

 

[Oikawa]

These 'best of all time' lists, in any sport, are imo a waste of time. You can only be the best in your career/era and trying to compare one to another is fun forum fodder(say that fast three times) but really means nada. All that being said, just based on his age filler could easily lap everyone on that list and set a career win target that would be tough to beat. Generational talent for sure. Still think he needs to grow up.

The entire forums are a waste of time. That's what we are here for, it's a fun way to waste it. And yeah Filler & Gorst will be #1 and #2 on the list in 10-15 years most likely.

 

[straightline]

As far as all of the US Opens, do they not loosely compare to the European Opens? I am shooting for a fair sampling from both the US and Europe.

Ralf appears to have been severely overlooked in a lot of these discussions.

Feel free to recommend other measurable ways to qualify.

I don't of course have the pinnacle view of the state of play. I have though wondered ever since my first handicapped tourney, just WTF the actual qualifications are. Compare to any worthwhile profession,

 

[Baby Huey]

Talking about who "The GOAT" is, is a common problem in all walks of life and endeavors. In our world, stats help to some extent but don't really tell the whole story. There's Greenleaf, Mosconi, Strickland, Reyes, SVB and all the rest. For me, not using a jump cue, Reyes reigns supreme. Throw in the jump cue and its a difficult Q and A.

 

[sjm]

Talking about who "The GOAT" is, is a common problem in all walks of life and endeavors. In our world, stats help to some extent but don't really tell the whole story. There's Greenleaf, Mosconi, Strickland, Reyes, SVB and all the rest. For me, not using a jump cue, Reyes reigns supreme. Throw in the jump cue and its a difficult Q and A.

Do you know one thing that Reyes and Strickland have in common? Both of them said "Mike Sigel is the best pool player against whom I've ever played." Your omission of Sigel who, by the way, won practically all his titles without a jump stick, is puzzling.

As others have suggested, comparison across generations is near impossible. It is, however, fun.

 

[Baby Huey]

SJM, I stand very much corrected. So there you go, one can forget past greats. But I don't think head to head Mike could beat Efren in the long run.

 

[King T]

Not accurate. In many years, these events had small fields, as small as thirteen in one case. It is not accurate to say that the overseas-based players have customarily played in these events more than occasionally. In most years, it has been just the opposite.

Since 2017 the fields in 8, 9 and 10 Ball have been full, no less than 64. The list of players that have won have all been champion level world class players from every country. They have also won in major events, World Cup of Pool, World Pool Masters, EU Open, etc.., I just think we should consider all Pro events when talking about the GOAT.

 

[markjames]

For me, not using a jump cue, Reyes reigns supreme.

and years later, we have a Reyes Cup
named after Efren and jump cues are everywhere

 

[sjm]

SJM, I stand very much corrected. So there you go, one can forget past greats. But I don't think head to head Mike could beat Efren in the long run.

Actually, Mike wore out Efren in competition. Yes, Efren was the better all-around player, but at 9ball, Efren was not even in Mike's class.

 

[mjantti]

The biggest problem with the list, which is pretty darn good, other than omission of the All-Japan and the Sands Reno, is the omission of Eurotour titles. Eurotour events have 256 player fields and are very hard to win and are very nearly the equal in prestige to wins in the European Championships.

Include Euro-tour titles and Ralf is probably well ahead of everyone in major championships. I suspect he has won over a dozen of them. Niels Feijen has probably won close to ten of them, too.

I counted 24 Eurotour titles for Ralf (1992-2017 !! That's 25 years.) Ortmann has won 14, Niels 11 and interestingly Nick v/d Berg quite impressive 10.

FWIW, Filler has won 8 ET's starting from 2021.

List of Euro Tour tournaments - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[sjm]

I counted 24 Eurotour titles for Ralf (1992-2017 !! That's 25 years.) Ortmann has won 14, Niels 11 and interestingly Nick v/d Berg quite impressive 10.

FWIW, Filler has won 8 ET's starting from 2021.

List of Euro Tour tournaments - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Wow, that's an amazing achievement. Seems even I, one of Ralf's greatest advocates, have underestimated him.

Very unlikely Filler can top Ralf's mark of 24.

 

[skogstokig]

eurotours are tough as hell, but the problem for me is the meager payouts and lack of non-euro competition. it's never been worth the travel for asians or americans.

 

[ShootingArts]

Mike Sigel is talked about amazingly little considering his accomplishments. He dominated Efren so badly that Efren was called the bridesmaid for awhile. Mike does such a job promoting himself I guess other people don't feel the need to. Mike's accomplishments were before the widespread internet and rarely seen on TV. Might be why he is somewhat overlooked.

Buddy Hall was the bull of the woods in my area and I always feel he deserved even more attention than he gets.

People's idea of the GOAT will always be influenced by exposure. Greenleaf and Mosconi both had their day and if we just look at the names of the titles, Mosconi had more world titles than any player of today I believe. Things get tricky though. The world title wasn't contested every year and when it wasn't the current world title holder was given the title for the years it wasn't held. Another issue, sometimes everyone else invited played each other and the winner of the tournament or round robin got to play for the world championship, exactly how Sigel structured the IPT to kick it off I believe. The first tournament winner played Mike and Mike only played that one match. Losing to Efren if I am not mistaken who he had a winning record against from years long past. Debatable, but I believe Mike might have had a better shot had he played the tournament and been in tune if he made it to the finals.

Hu

 

[skogstokig]

Mike Sigel is talked about amazingly little considering his accomplishments. He dominated Efren so badly that Efren was called the bridesmaid for awhile. Mike does such a job promoting himself I guess other people don't feel the need to. Mike's accomplishments were before the widespread internet and rarely seen on TV. Might be why he is somewhat overlooked.

Buddy Hall was the bull of the woods in my area and I always feel he deserved even more attention than he gets.

People's idea of the GOAT will always be influenced by exposure. Greenleaf and Mosconi both had their day and if we just look at the names of the titles, Mosconi had more world titles than any player of today I believe. Things get tricky though. The world title wasn't contested every year and when it wasn't the current world title holder was given the title for the years it wasn't held. Another issue, sometimes everyone else invited played each other and the winner of the tournament or round robin got to play for the world championship, exactly how Sigel structured the IPT to kick it off I believe. The first tournament winner played Mike and Mike only played that one match. Losing to Efren if I am not mistaken who he had a winning record against from years long past. Debatable, but I believe Mike might have had a better shot had he played the tournament and been in tune if he made it to the finals.

Hu

the way i remember it, it didn't look like sigel would have made it halfway through the field. wasn't he basically given 200k by KT for two events?

 

[sjm]

the way i remember it, it didn't look like sigel would have made it halfway through the field. wasn't he basically given 200k by KT for two events?

That's post-retirement Sigel, who was in his mid-50s during the IPT Mike retired in 1993, while the IPT was in 2006. Yes, his game was well below that of Efren in 8-ball at that time. FYI, I consider Efren to be the greatest 8-ball player of all time.

I'm talking about prime-Sigel, whose best years were from 1978-92. He dominated Efren time and time again in those years. His real rivals at 9ball in those years were Strickland, Varner and Hall. By the end of Mike's career, of course, Parica, Bustamante and Archer were big threats, too.

 

[mjantti]

So during their prime, who would win? Sigel or Filler? Race to 100. BO5.

 

[skogstokig]

That's post-retirement Sigel, who was in his mid-50s during the IPT Mike retired in 1993, while the IPT was in 2006. Yes, his game was well below that of Efren in 8-ball at that time. FYI, I consider Efren to be the greatest 8-ball player of all time.

I'm talking about prime-Sigel, whose best years were from 1978-92. He dominated Efren time and time again in those years. His real rivals at 9ball in those years were Strickland, Varner and Hall. By the end of Mike's career, of course, Parica, Bustamante and Archer were big threats, too.

i was referring to hu's theory that mike would have had a better chance against reyes in the IPT final had he played the tournament. truth is he wouldn't have been in the final if he wasn't in cahoots with KT.

 

[ShootingArts]

the way i remember it, it didn't look like sigel would have made it halfway through the field. wasn't he basically given 200k by KT for two events?

Mike was given a couple very easy paydays from his friend Kevin. Pays to remember despite the fiasco at the end the IPT dumped a ton of money into pool. Without Mike there would have been no IPT.

Hard to say how Mike would have done had he played into the finals from the beginning. We see the semi's and finals of most events after pro's are well dialed in. That ain't exactly how they play day to day!

As Stu says, Mike was well past his glory days. I just think he didn't give himself the best chance coming in cold when Efren was tuned from days of competition. Mike might or might not have made it. One thing, he would have qualified for the legends seeding which would have let him have time to tune but not too much time to be knocked out of the event.

All speculation on my part, I believe that Mike could have been much better prepared than he was. Aside from tuning I would have quietly entered a few events or set up some gambling matches to get in competition tune. I would not have expected a coming out of long retirement Mike to beat a battle hardened Efren regardless. I just think he could have done better.

i was referring to hu's theory that mike would have had a better chance against reyes in the IPT final had he played the tournament. truth is he wouldn't have been in the final if he wasn't in cahoots with KT.

Very possibly not. Then again, neither would Efren or any other pool player. Mike was the primary mover behind the IPT, not Kevin. While we talk of Kevin as a con man, justifiably, Mike conned Kevin. To be fair, I think Mike conned himself most of all. A lot of things I think I should still be able to do that I will never do again. I think Mike could have done better, I don't think he had a snowball's chance in hell of beating Efren.

Hu