Goodbye APA, it's been fun...

[MrLucky]

Well Stated....

You have to have an understanding that you are playing in a handicapped league. I hear some of my own friends complain about it, but they know very well that's how the ratings worked when they joined. The APA is nowhere near perfect, but they have done a fairly good job at making a handicap system that encourages people of all skill levels to play (with the exception of the more die-hard players that should be playing in more serious leagues). The adjusting of handicaps is a way of trying to stop people from sandbagging, and I can applaud that. I do agree, however, that this is a double-edged sword; people with established ratings can play their 4 matches in the season and either flail purposefully or do just well enough for the win and to make sure their ratings don't change.

If it is just the rating system and amateur rules (and sometimes conduct) that you don't like, start up a Triple Play Masters team - no skill levels and there are even races (points are decided by games won).

I'm enjoying it more often than not and I accept the ratings system (for what it's worth) and the rules since I knew they were in place when I joined. Eventually, though, I do see myself leaning more towards a formal and more competitive league. Not that BCA rules are perfect - what genius says slop is cheap but okays a scratch on the 8-ball? 6 in one hand, 1/2 dozen in the other.

I have played APA since it was the Busch League and my finding is it depends on the league operator each division is a franchise and the franchise owner pays a lot of money to "own" it the weaknes IMO is that they decide when and why to OVERRIDE the computerized handicap system for better or worse ! the ability to over ride is to be able to stop slicksters from running up innings to maintain their handicap! but in the hands of a weak or easily persuaded owner this can and will be abused ! Is there a better way? I don't know but I have been thinking about it for over 20 years now !
Over all I do enjoy the APA experience I have the benefit of being in a good division (Atlanta) and play out of a inhouse league (Mr CuesII) with a overall great bunch of folks and some really good players that present a good challenge for me! I could see where if I was in a smaller market with lower level players and / or a really bad operator I might be frustrated and looking for a change!
When you consider that in our division you get spending money and all expenses paid trip to Vegas when your team qualifies ! That just adds to the pleasure and benefits! We also have prize money at most of the playoff levels plus many tournys during the session with trophys / cues / money prizes!

 

[psueric]

Subject: APA handicap formula
The handicap system is based on "(innings-safeties)/win". In other words, how many times can I let you shoot (on average) before I need to worry about you winning the game? Obviously, the better you shoot, the lower your innings per game will be, and the higher your skill level. Non-performance shots and safeties (they are different) do not count toward your inning total for that match. Your average is based on only your best scores. The bad scores don't count at all. Only your last 20 scores count. Old scores are dropped. If you don't have 20 score in yet (like new players), then your average is based on the best scores:
1 score: That's your average.
2 scores: Average the 2.
3 scores: Average the best 2 scores.
4 scores: Average the best 2 scores.
5 scores: Average the best 3 scores.
6 scores: Average the best 3 scores.
7 scores: Average the best 4 scores.
8 scores: Average the best 4 scores.
9 scores: Average the best 5 scores.
10 scores: Average the best 5 scores.
11 scores: Average the best 6 scores.
12 scores: Average the best 6 scores.
13 scores: Average the best 7 scores.
14 scores: Average the best 7 scores.
15 scores: Average the best 8 scores.
16 scores: Average the best 8 scores.
17 scores: Average the best 9 scores.
18 scores: Average the best 9 scores.
19 scores: Average the best 10 scores.
20 scores: Average the best 10 scores.

After that, only the base 10 of your last 20 score count. Old scores
are dropped off as new ones are added.

The scores are averaged and will fall into one of these skill levels:

RANGE SKILL LEVEL
0.00 - 2.00 7
2.01 - 3.00 6
3.01 - 4.00 5
4.01 - 5.00 4
5.01 - 7.00 3
7.01 - 10.00 2

Note that the Bud Light systems does not allow any scores or averages
greater than 10 innings per game.

The place where the system gets sneaky is the 'applied scoring'. This
is most likely the part that your league operator doesn't want to tell
you. Then again he may not know it very well, as it is a little
complicated. Basically what the applied score is is a means to help prevent
sandbagging. The way it works is this:

Say you're a six afraid of going up to a seven.

You know that the cut-off for being a seven is 2.00 innings
per win or less.

You play good enough to win, but pad your innings to make sure
that your score for that match is over 2.00 innings per win.

Your league operator inputs a score for you of say: 5 games in
15 innings (3.00 innings per win). The APA system will give you
an 'applied score' base on your winning percentage instead of
that 3.00 score you worked so hard to get.

These applied scores are used for every match you win in which you shot
more innings than your skill level indicates. A side effect of the
applied score system is that it is next to impossible to drop a skill
level while maintaining a winning percentage above 50%.

Here are the applied scores for the various skill level/winning
percentage combinations:

S/L WIN APPLIED S/L WIN APPLIED
% SCORE % SCORE
7 100 1.1 6 100 2.1
7 90 1.1 6 90 2.1
7 80 1.2 6 80 2.2
7 70 1.3 6 70 2.3
7 60 1.4 6 60 2.4
7 50 1.5 6 50 2.5
7 40 1.6 6 40 2.6
7 30 1.7 6 30 2.6
7 20 1.8 6 20 2.8
7 10 1.9 6 10 2.9
5 100 3.1 4 100 4.1
5 90 3.1 4 90 4.1
5 80 3.2 4 80 4.2
5 70 3.3 4 70 4.3
5 60 3.4 4 60 4.4
5 50 3.5 4 50 4.5
5 40 3.6 4 40 4.6
5 30 3.6 4 30 4.6
5 20 3.8 4 20 4.8
5 10 3.9 4 10 4.9
3 100 5.1 2 ALL 7.0
3 90 5.1
3 80 5.2
3 70 5.3
3 60 5.4
3 50 5.5
3 40 5.6
3 30 5.6
3 20 5.8
3 10 5.9

The score being added counts toward the winning percentage. For example,
I'm a seven with a 90% winning percentage. Last night I beat a six in our
super-30 league 7 to 4 in 16 inning with 2 safeties. Since the safeties
don't count, my league operator will enter into his computer that I won my 7
games in 14 innings instead of 16. The APA software will compte innings per
win and come up with a score of 2.00. Then the software notices that I have
a 90% winning percentage, and that my applied score is 1.1. That 1.1
score is what will get stored in my records. It wouldn't matter if I had
taken 200 innings to beat the guy - I still would have gotten tha applied score
of 1.1, because I WON AND SHOT WORSE THAN MY WINING PERCENTAGE INDICATES
I SHOULD.

Applied scores are only used for WINS, so if I had lost my match, say
6 to 6 in 16 innings with 2 safeties, then I would get a 2.33 score in my
records. That's (16 innings minus 2 safeties) divided by 6 wins.

Also notice that the applied score for all 2s is 7.0, and that 7.0 is
actually a 3 skill level. What this does is prevent anybody from being a
2 with a winning percentage. Any time a 2 gets a winning percentage they
are automatically bumped up to a 3, since at that time their best scores
will be better than 7.01.

The system is fairly complicated, but it's designed pretty well. It's
actually the fairest system I've come across. It's possible to
sandbag in Bud Light, but it's possible to sandbag in any handicap system.


Good luck!

@jayman

I know this is old, but it's a very interesting read, and I'm curious about how a few scenarios would be handled.
Scenario 1

Player 1 - SL2
Player 2 - SL2 (Race to 2)

Player 1 wins game 1 in 14 innings.
Player 1 wins game 2 in 14 innings.

Player 1 is awarded a match win, with an average of 7 innings/win, (applied score)
Player 2 receives a match loss, which will lower his winning percentage, but here's my question?
What is entered for Player 2 innings/win, since he didn't win any games?
How will this affect his overall score for the past 20 matches?

--------------
Scenario 2
Player 1 SL2
Player 2 SL2 (Race to 2)

Game 1
Player 1 breaks and makes a ball, and then pockets an early 8 in the next shot.
Player 2 wins game in 0 innings.

Game 2
Player 2 breaks dry.
Player 1 comes to the table and pockets an early 8 in the next shot.
Player 2 wins game in 1 inning.

So player 2 wins the match, but never pockets a ball.
The formula above will show player 2 with an innings/win = 0.5.

And this match will affect his handicap for the next 20 matches.
Or is there some stipulation that "early 8" by an opponent is somehow scored differently?

Thanks for your post, and thanks in advance for any clarification that you can provide.

Thanks
-Eric

 

[dquarasr]

While no one but APA knows their proprietary algorithm, I believe the calculations give more weight to innings than win/loss. And if wins are accomplished by early 8 or scratch on 8, that should be noted on the scoresheet. This is also why defensive shots are counted.

Think about it: Innings = misses. If it takes a person two innings per rack, they are obviously a more highly skilled player than one who averages 10 innings to get out. Defenses, defined as “no intention to pocket a ball”, therefore is not an attempted pot of a ball, is technically a miss, but don’t count toward innings.

So most of the algorithm is based on most recent matches, and how often a player misses, even if this is a gross oversimplification.

 

[Clusterbuster]

Firstly, has anyone ever seen this system? Does it exist on a spreadsheet or is it some type of software that performs calculations of a players last 15 games, then determine if they should go up or down? Or, is it up to the league operator, based on their potentially inconsistent observations of how a player has played recently. Is it subject to favoritism of one player over another? Or are rating kept static to "help" a team stay under their 23 rule cap for a spell?

Yes to all of the above.

 

[JessEm]

While no one but APA knows their proprietary algorithm, I believe the calculations give more weight to innings than win/loss. And if wins are accomplished by early 8 or scratch on 8, that should be noted on the scoresheet. This is also why defensive shots are counted.

Think about it: Innings = misses. If it takes a person two innings per rack, they are obviously a more highly skilled player than one who averages 10 innings to get out. Defenses, defined as “no intention to pocket a ball”, therefore is not an attempted pot of a ball, is technically a miss, but don’t count toward innings.

So most of the algorithm is based on most recent matches, and how often a player misses, even if this is a gross oversimplification.

I don't believe innings outweigh Win/Loss. If it did, we wouldn't see a HUGE disparity in actual skill between players from different-size regions. For example, a 5 from a large region is much better than a 5 in a smaller region. That is because many more good 7's in the larger region keep the 6's down, who then keep the 5's down, and so on down the line. If it was mainly just innings, SL ratings would be the same regardless of region size.

Handicaps in general are pretty competition-based quotents.

 

[The_JV]

I don't believe innings outweigh Win/Loss. If it did, we wouldn't see a HUGE disparity in actual skill between players from different-size regions. For example, a 5 from a large region is much better than a 5 in a smaller region. That is because many more good 7's in the larger region keep the 6's down, who then keep the 5's down, and so on down the line. If it was mainly just innings, SL ratings would be the same regardless of region size.

Cue APA Operator, to tell us the above isn't true, and all 5's would be eventually be equal regardless of region and a lack of mingling amongst other areas.

 

[APA Operator]

Cue APA Operator, to tell us the above isn't true, and all 5's would be eventually be equal regardless of region and a lack of mingling amongst other areas.

It does me no good to tell you anything, your truth is what you believe. APA is fun for a lot of people, and you get the most enjoyment out of it when you don't concern yourself with the handicap system and how it works. Those who can't enjoy it that way shouldn't play.

 

[fuggles]

It does me no good to tell you anything, your truth is what you believe. APA is fun for a lot of people, and you get the most enjoyment out of it when you don't concern yourself with the handicap system and how it works. Those who can't enjoy it that way shouldn't play.

I agree on all your points. I played for 15 years or so in the early 2000s. It was fun. Met some really good people. Met my wife.

Of course there were a few who couldn't stop whining about theirs or someone's handicap. Nothing the League or Operator can do about that. Its the people not the system.

 

[jasonlaus]

It does me no good to tell you anything, your truth is what you believe. APA is fun for a lot of people, and you get the most enjoyment out of it when you don't concern yourself with the handicap system and how it works. Those who can't enjoy it that way shouldn't play.

Don't concern yourself with the handicap system and how it works????

Sounds like something a complete crook would say. Shut up, sit down and let my friends go to Vegas every year.

I wouldn't leave a quarter on the rail with you around.

 

[psueric]

It does me no good to tell you anything, your truth is what you believe. APA is fun for a lot of people, and you get the most enjoyment out of it when you don't concern yourself with the handicap system and how it works. Those who can't enjoy it that way shouldn't play.

unfortunately when you sit back and "trust the systtem" you are often taken advantage of by people who have control of the system (and have the most to benefit by gaming the system in their favor). Seems kinda like my bank saying "no need to balance your checkbook", we'll take care of your account balance and you can just trust us... Complete and utter Nonsense.

 

[ChrisinNC]

I've played in the APA off and on since 1994, and had a really good time over the years, but this year I have come to the realization that this time is over and it's time to get serious about playing pool. So, I am going to contact Mark A. here in the Seattle area and find out what I need to know about the BCA, and go from there. Here's a few observations of the APA and the reason I'm leaving it:

Handicap system-
I think it's a total crock of you know what!
Firstly, has anyone ever seen this system? Does it exist on a spreadsheet or is it some type of software that performs calculations of a players last 15 games, then determine if they should go up or down? Or, is it up to the league operator, based on their potentially inconsistent observations of how a player has played recently. Is it subject to favoritism of one player over another? Or are rating kept static to "help" a team stay under their 23 rule cap for a spell?

From what I have witnessed, a league operator can arbitrarily move a player up or down based on their reputation or recent play, in order to match their SL more closely to "reality" I think this fact speaks volumes in terms of the integrity of the equalizer system. How can it be equal if the system allows judgment calls to be made like this? Where are the checks and balances?

I'm fed up with it if you can't tell, because in my League it seems like we have alot of people who should go up and don't, alot of people who shouldn't go up and do!
Equal(izer) my a$$!
Unfortunately, there are alot of motives for the league (some good, some bad) for it to stay that way.


The people/the players-

Over time & in the past, I've had many different types of people on my teams (I've been captain most years). All of them enjoy playing pool, but they rarely want to practice. Right now, I cant get my team together to practice on their own or in a group no matter what I try. The result is alot of lost games/points that drive me right up the 'friggin wall. Sometimes we get lucky and an un-practiced player beats an opponent, but most of the time they get their ass handed to them, like they should!!
It's this type of lack of dedication to the game that is driving me away. I don't want to play with these types any more, becasue it's dragging me down. Some of you reading this may have good teams that practice alot, well good on ya. Stick with them and practice away, hopefully you'll go far. It's really hard to find people that will play on a league team and dedicate themselves to the game of pool. It goes further than this......

This last fall session I had a great team. Not only did we all get along, but all were dedicated to the game and would practice regularly. We all played really well, holding first place with points to spare for 3/4 of the session. But over the last few matches my 2 went to a 3, some of my 3's became 4's, one 5 became a 6, and before you know it we can only play 1 or 2 combinations of players each night. I could only play if both my 3's should show up and I threw them both. It sucked. Finally, we had a good team, but due to the SL cap, we couldn't play together any more and had to break the team into two teams. Time to start over again....

That's the straw that broke the Camel's back. I have realized that I am never going to be happy in this league, because as soon as you become successful as a team, you have to split it up or add new players and drop old ones. When you change the roster on a great team, the teams performance is going to suffer. When you have to split a team into two, both teams really suffer.

I am hoping that by joining the BCA, I'll be surrounding myself with more people that really care abotu the game. People who practice and will encourage me to practice and play better, as well as exercise a little etiquette around the table for goodness sake!


So, there ya have it folks. There are other reasons why I don't care for the league, but at the risk of posting a topic that's too verbose, I'll pass for now.

I'll be joining the ranks of the BCA as soon as I can, never to play in the APA again after this session is over.

See ya Round!

You should consider weekly 8-ball or 9-ball tournaments at a poolroom that has a reputation for well run tournaments, preferably double elimination and handicapped fairly by a tournament director who knows his/her players.

As opposed to league play, you get to spend a lot more of your time playing matches against various levels of players and not mainly just watching your teammates play.

 

[Tom1234]

“Of course there were a few who couldn't stop whining about theirs or someone's handicap. Nothing the League or Operator can do about that. It’s the people not the system.”

An email from APA headquarters in St. Louis told me your hcp IS pretty much what the LO thinks it is. LOs manipulate hcps for various reasons. Lose 10-15 matches in a row to lower SL players and your hcp DOESN’T drop? How does that make sense?

 

[DeeDeeCues]

I'll preface this by saying I mostly enjoyed my short time in the apa. I didn't want to go to Vegas, tho, and that probably helped my enjoyment.

My team was screwed by the operator when they brought me on and asked if they were within the rules doing so. He ignored the question until the last week of the season when he decided I had come in too late. He then changed my 75% wins to forfeits.

There is no transparency which leads to take being screwed... Or believing they are being screwed because they can't verify anything.

 

[Bavafongoul]

I never read this thread before but after reading a few pages, I have a solution.

APA uses a team handicap system that cannot exceed 23 points, or I think it is.
Getting 5 players to play is hard to balance when you have 6’s & 7’s on the team.
So the challenge is to balance the team with higher & lower handicapped players.

Here’s the solution…….form another APA Division that raises the team handicap from
23 to 32. To qualify, a team has to have a starting minimum handicap of 23. The likely
number of teams will be less but maybe not if the competition was high. The APA has
something called the Masters as I recall. Here’s an equivalent….. a team with 3 players
rated 6 and 2 players rated 7 ( max handicap 32). Another team with 5 players that have
a handicap of 5 (25) or better could be competitive because of the handicap difference.

Just draw a line and say that there’s APA and APA-II. I’d try APA again if they had this
new division but as others have already expressed, APA is not without its own challenges.

 

[Cuedup]

I never read this thread before but after reading a few pages, I have a solution.

APA uses a team handicap system that cannot exceed 23 points, or I think it is.
Getting 5 players to play is hard to balance when you have 6’s & 7’s on the team.
So the challenge is to balance the team with higher & lower handicapped players.

Here’s the solution…….form another APA Division that raises the team handicap from
23 to 32. To qualify, a team has to have a starting minimum handicap of 23. The likely
number of teams will be less but maybe not if the competition was high. The APA has
something called the Masters as I recall. Here’s an equivalent….. a team with 3 players
rated 6 and 2 players rated 7 ( max handicap 32). Another team with 5 players that have
a handicap of 5 (25) or better could be competitive because of the handicap difference.

Just draw a line and say that there’s APA and APA-II. I’d try APA again if they had this
new division but as others have already expressed, APA is not without its own challenges.

APA Masters is no handicap. Race to seven in 8 and 9 ball.

It's hard enough filling out a masters division. I don't think there's room for a high handicap handicapped division.

 

[APA Operator]

Don't concern yourself with the handicap system and how it works????

Sounds like something a complete crook would say. Shut up, sit down and let my friends go to Vegas every year.

I wouldn't leave a quarter on the rail with you around.

Whatever. We've never met, so if you want to twist my words just to call me a crook that tells me all I need to know about you. You can have your quarter and here, since you're so worried about losing it, take one of mine, too. I'll manage without it or you.

 

[APA Operator]

unfortunately when you sit back and "trust the systtem" you are often taken advantage of by people who have control of the system (and have the most to benefit by gaming the system in their favor). Seems kinda like my bank saying "no need to balance your checkbook", we'll take care of your account balance and you can just trust us... Complete and utter Nonsense.

Did I say blindly trust the system? Be suspicious if you want, question it. There's nothing wrong with letting the people in charge know you're watching. If they're like me and have nothing to hide, they'll welcome it. But don't let it consume you to the point that you forget about the important stuff, like the time you spend with family and friends, playing a sport you enjoy.

Make no mistake about it, there are people who try to game the system. Little, little people in my book. I'll do my part to combat them, that's part of my job, you do your part by reporting them (by name, that's what you can do about it), and try to have fun in spite of them. If you can't have fun anyway, don't play. Seriously, why would anybody do anything that costs them money and isn't fun? Well, except buy insurance.

 

[APA Operator]

I'll preface this by saying I mostly enjoyed my short time in the apa. I didn't want to go to Vegas, tho, and that probably helped my enjoyment.

My team was screwed by the operator when they brought me on and asked if they were within the rules doing so. He ignored the question until the last week of the season when he decided I had come in too late. He then changed my 75% wins to forfeits.

There is no transparency which leads to take being screwed... Or believing they are being screwed because they can't verify anything.

Sounds like there's more to this story than is being told. Until very recently, nobody could change a team's roster except local league management. So if you were on the team, it had to be with local league management's approval. So there's no such thing as "too late". The only "too late" I know of is after week 4 of Spring Session for WQ-qualified teams. Is that what happened here?

 

[Cuedup]

In my experience with the APA there was a vocal segment of players that were always complaining about sandbaggers. Every time they lost. Every time someone 'seemed' to shoot better than their skill level. Such complaints typically came from lower skilled players , which IMO is to be expected. They just don't know that much about pool.

However, the baggers are out there. Any captain making repeat successful trips to Vegas has to be , uh , at least conscious of the skill levels on his team and manage the challenges accordingly.

We had a team show up to our in-house league looking to join. That's kind of unusual. We get people wanting to join a team but not too many teams showing up ready to play. Sure, welcome aboard.
Come to find out their team had been banned from APA for cheating/sandbagging. Our league plays straight up matches . Losing means losing with no future advantage gained so they had to perform to play. They were some solid shooters that were playing as 4s and 5s in APA.

Someone went out on a limb and formally complained and took it through the system and did something about it. That's how it should be but what I also noticed when I was playing is all those people complaining about sandbaggers never had any evidence or did anything concrete about doing something about it. They just complained around the table.

These are the same people that don't like to keep score and if they do they don't properly mark defensive shots, which impacts skill level calculations.

I enjoyed the APA when I was playing in it. I liked the competition, meeting all the area players and socializing. My only gripe was the long waits and late nights during the week. I was able to find a better alternative for me but for many the APA is the only game in town or at least the only one they know about.

People are out there shooting pool and having fun in APA. Buying pool products and spending money in local pool establishments. They're a valuable member of the pool community and don't deserve the disrespect heaped on by so many.

 

[The_JV]

It does me no good to tell you anything, your truth is what you believe. APA is fun for a lot of people, and you get the most enjoyment out of it when you don't concern yourself with the handicap system and how it works. Those who can't enjoy it that way shouldn't play.

Well said...

Just know I'm not anti-APA. One can have an opinion on an aspect but remain indifferent on the whole. I know several people that really enjoy the CPA (APA), and I don't spit bile at them for doing so. I'm fortunate enough that when I did play regular league, I was maxed out, so worrying about how the "equalizer" secret sauce could potentially effect my rating wasn't a concern.

I don't play CPA because of the slap stick entertainment the "equalizer" provides. The league simply isn't built to support strong players.