Grain runout in shaft wood

Straightness of grain has very little to do with playability, nor does tightness of grain. Those factors are simply basic guidelines for choosing wood that will stay straight & stay stable. Even then it's not a rule, just a basic guide. To the best of my knowledge, the only way to visually predict how a shaft will play is by color, sugar content, and mineral content. My experience has led me to believe that wood with these characteristics are the better playing shafts. Contrarily, this is the kind of stuff that builders shy away from. In fact, builders want exactly the opposite. May be a bad analogy but it's like asking for hottest, most beautiful hooker in town then only to want it cheap & expect her to actually be any fun. She's nice to look at but dead as a corpse & a waste of money.


LOL, Now that's A creative way of putting It. That's how I see It too, I haven't been making shafts for even a full 1/4 of those years, but I've been playing the game for more then half My life, at least 25 years, and owned My share of cues, some of My best players had qualities that some people would turn their nose up to. I tell people this, but most want the really white clear stuff, and some feel It's a lower grade if It is not. It also happens to be the most expensive, and It's true that some of the factors that make it such, play no roll in how the shaft plays or feels in the end. It's not to say that it will not play well, It's a crap shoot either way, but It's also been My experience that shafts with at least some of those characteristics you speak of have a higher percentage of leading to a great playing shaft, but even so there's always that one that is exception to the rule, and throws all common thought or knowledge out the door and baffles the mind. I have been lucky in that I have never received any really bad playing shaft wood, well, nothing that didn't get tossed before turning It, granted though as with any shaft some play better then others, and some just play great, and produce a higher level of shot confidence. I do feel that taper has a lot of effect in improving these things too, but probably the same as You I'm thinking in general terms, as If this was not factored into It, and all tapers were the same.
I have received shaft wood that fooled me initially. The grain count was decent, very minimal sugar if any at all, most being totally clear, and white so the sell-able qualities are all there, but It was really really white, did not have that coloring, so I figure they will be alright shafts, and people will be happy with them, but I don't expect better then average results. As I mentioned before in My climate I really have no choice but to let woods rest for long periods of time unless I want to fool with preservatives. I've noticed that over time I start to see the coloring appear, and maybe I'm nuts but seems as if the feel and tone qualities improve as this happens. I mean It could just be nothing more then the staining from particles or chemicals in the air, and I'm mislead on the feel and tone, Like I've mentioned I don't know It all, and this is just an observation, but it sure seems like something is going on. although It does lighten up a hair when the surface is broken, underneath It still holds some of the characteristics, and The wood even seems to face better then when I initially put center holes in the blanks.

I do have to take back one or 2 things that I said, I have not sold any of them, but I do have one shaft that may be considered junk by some, and I could never sell anything like this, but It does have a small knot. It was just a shaft that I played around with tapers on, It's pretty sad looking, only about 4 GPI maybe 5 hence the reason I even used It, and probably due to that, not the other characteristics it has in It, It's very lite in density. I wanted to see if I could pull a taper on a low quality shaft that would still play well, It has wavy grain, the small knot in the middle, although It can not be felt, and It's not overly loaded with minerals or sugar, but has a pretty fair amount in It. It's more of a stiffer taper, so may not feel comfortable enough for a lot of people, but It is probably one of My best playing personal shafts on one of My cues, and was never intended to be used as much as It has. It just turned out that I kept going back to the shaft because sometimes It gave me the most shot confidence at any given time when My game was not showing up for me. It's helped me salvage many of nights when My play started out bad. In fact It helped me out last night when I was down big against a fairly strong player that was at least My equal if not better. He got the jump on me after I blew a couple of key shots, got 3-4 games on Me, then made a unforced error or 2, and that gave Me a chance to get back into It, but luckily I was able to pick up the pieces, change the momentum, and make a good comeback to win using that old junk shaft LOL. It was the last match of the night, gave My team the 5/0 victory which we desperately needed late in the season. even though I've been there many of times before, If I said I wasn't feeling the pressure I would be lying, but I have to at least partially credit that shaft for helping Me regain My focus. Man I'm a strong believer in whatever works, hard to kick a gift horse in the satchel even if he is uglier then sin.:wink:
 
Shaft wood

This subject has recieved a lot of comments. Some I agree with. l can say certainty that starting with the best wood possible is only one of the keys.
Nothing can take the place of patience in turning the shafts down. It can take up to 2yrs. to get a batch of shafts to size. That is still no guarantee that on the last pass it does not GTH(very frustrating).
I'll make a plug for Cue Components shaftwood. He has one of the largest inventories(if not the largest) of the suppliers. He is not the least expensive source. On the other hand, if you want 20-40 RPI, thats the place.
Remember to keep your "river" of wood flowing...
P
 
Hi,

Since all shafts are organic material everything is a crap shoot. Of course you don't want grain run out even if the shaft is straight as I believe most people or players who judge shafts won't buy a cue with shafts like that.

I am not an expert on shaft wood but I think I am becoming one as I have now processed between 600 to 700 shafts from planks to dowels to tapered units.

Here is my list of important items and comments:

Source of the wood: - region - I get my wood from N. Michigan. Up state New York, Vermont, and Canada are also great regions.

Vaccum Kiln Dried: It must be verified that your source is processing the wood correctly.

1/4 sawn planks to start with: even then there are sections of these boards you don't want.

Density by weight per unit: The most important thing IMO. When I pick up a plank I know and feel the heavy ones. Classify the planks then classify the dowels, then classify the shafts.

"Color" Don't judge a shaft by color if you are looking for great playability. Match up shafts by color and weight.

Sugar and mineral content: Cosmetic. Collate your shafts where lower end cues, ie sneaky petes or plane janes get these units. You get what you pay for.

Growth rings: A lot of people want high GR and thats Ok. I want to see a minimum of 14. With the wood I pick I get very few rejects from GRs.

Comments and Observations:

The taper you bring to the dance is paramount to the shaft playability. I produce a cue that has a stiff hit via a parabolic taper geometry with a 13mm end. I think the thinner the aspect ratio of your geometry, the more problems you will have with some wood as you approach your final taper dimension.

Stability of the shafts once you have picked good ones is attained by your processing of the wood over time. Once a taper has been established the cues must be processed in a procedure that you know works in the end.
Ernie G. at Gina Cue processes his shaft woods over many years and if you buy a cue from him the shafts have been his shop for at least 10 years.

I have posted here about my experience and got some pointed questions by some respected CMs concerning my low rejection rate of my shafts (only 1 to 2%). After some thought on this subject I have figured my rejecting rate is higher because I am rejecting dowels for various reasons before they hit a tapered condition.

Buy and process your own shaft wood. It is worth it!

Rick G
 
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Out of the 700 shafts you processed, how many were 20+ GPI? How many were loaded with sugar content? How many had mineral? How many were yellow or brown? How many did not come from Michigan? How many were not vacuum dried? How many were traditional dehumidification kiln dried? How many were air dried? How many were true quarter sawn & how many were pain sawn?

If you haven't cut & played with hundreds of the differing characteristics I mentioned, how can you judge & compare? Not knocking on you here. I'm just thinking 700 shafts is grossly premature to be throwing around the term, "expert". No disrespect meant but 700 shafts is infantile. Please don't take that as a knock because it's not. I'm just trying to find a spectrum we can all understand so we are on the same page with this conversation.
 
Huh?????

....Not knocking on you here. I'm just thinking 700 shafts is grossly premature to be throwing around the term, "expert". No disrespect meant but 700 shafts is infantile. Please don't take that as a knock because it's not. .....

Sure sounded like it to me:p
 
See, here's my situation, which I suspect is shared by very many small time guys like me who make cues: When I buy wood, I usually get 10 squares or dowels to try and if I like them, that is to say, if the grain is really straight, I might get 25 (I once bought 50) more. As I said, small time. This many will keep me happy for some while. I suppose I own 150-200 or so squares and dowels and perhaps half that many more in one stage or another on their way to becoming shafts, which takes me forever. I keep buying them at a steady trickle so I have nice ones in the future. I'm in no hurry, so keeping a 10 year supply of wood bothers me not at all.
So it doesn't really work for me to get in my truck and drive to Michigan to find my own boards. I just don't make that many cues.
What I do is find someone who, from the reports of others, is a square shooter, or who by their constant presence on these forums seems like they might be a square shooter, and... I take my best shot. If they say the wood is "shaft wood", I have no choice but to believe them until I have the wood in my hands.
The only standard I have concerns grain straightness. Color? There's something for everyone. Ring count? Well, the more the better I suppose, and that's what I'm always promised, but I've made some very nice shafts from low ring count wood that have stayed straight and (I love this phrase) "hit a ton".
So when I buy my little little consignment of 10 supposedly ultra-high quality shaft squares from a source new to me, and they come complete with a heavy rap about how good they are because of their cool ancestry... these trees having been grown from seeds obtained by the Lewis and Clark expedition and blessed by Ghandi on his last visit to Michigan, then nurtured by hand by monks who have devoted their lives to tending them etc., etc.,.....and then 7 out of ten have not just unacceptable runout, but ABSURD runout and wild, crazy grain which, on a forearm, you would core without a second thought, and the other 3 only so-so to really stretch the point...who gives a rat's ass about all this jive about their history: the grain runs out like crazy!...they are not suitable for making pool cues! End of story. I'm not some hyper-fussy nit who likes to argue and wants the best for peanuts. But to sell this stuff as "shaft wood", as if it's unique origin trumps the totally crap-assed grain? What a bad joke.
So yes, I am returning to the seller the 7 junkers less one square which I turned round just out of morbid curiosity. Could there be something magical about them that only emerges later besides a bad oder? I mean think of it...Lewis and Clark!! Nope. Pure crap... in my opinion.

I certainly appreciate people coming forward with their best advice. I of course appreciate the process-related advice. I'm sure many of you guys have it wired; I'm working on it, but my real problem is getting really first rate wood to use in the first place and not getting totally ripped off in the process.
Thanks once again for the perspective.
Robin
 
If I was to sell straight grained shafts with reasonably tight grain (15 - 20 gpi at say .900 and .650) , weight matched within 3 grams and tonally equal, I would have to have at least $150 - $200 for the pair.
 
Straight grain is not an add-on or an extra. It's fundamental. Would you really charge extra for that?
 
If I was to sell straight grained shafts with reasonably tight grain (15 - 20 gpi at say .900 and .650) , weight matched within 3 grams and tonally equal, I would have to have at least $150 - $200 for the pair.
Good luck with that. Really.
 
Good luck with that. Really.

Thanks, if I ever offer them for sale.

I would like to point out that straight grained, 25 gpi squares are offered for $40 and I know he gets it from some. Now take that square, and over time turn it down, meet the criteria as mentioned before and the price might be a little on the low side after you figure your time and expertise in bringing them along.
 
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Thanks, if I ever offer them for sale.

I would like to point out that straight grained, 25 gpi squares are offered for $40 and I know he gets it from some. Now take that square, and over time turn it down, meet the criteria as mentioned before and the price might be a little on the low side after you figure your time and expertise in bringing them along.

I'm afraid I'm missing your point. My only point throughout this discussion is to point out that shaft wood with crazy runout has no value to a cuemaker at all.
 
Sure sounded like it to me:p

That's why nobody can say anything on an online forum without fear of it turning into a shitstorm. The post wasn't meant to knock. It was meant to put things into perspective. 700 shafts is nothing. Most of the builders I know buy & process shafts in the thousands each time, not a few hundred over a long period of time. I think we're seeing an apples to oranges thing going on here, two completely different leagues. We could have this 3 page conversation in ten minutes if face to face, word for word & nobody would be offended or felt like they were bashed. Online, people are delicate & sensitive. It sucks. So I say to hell with it & just say things i'd say to you in person and leave it up to you to accept what I say as what I mean, or else misinterpret it and think i'm a jerk. No skin off my back.
 
I'm afraid I'm missing your point. My only point throughout this discussion is to point out that shaft wood with crazy runout has no value to a cuemaker at all.

They do.
I chop a good straight-grain 15" to 18" and use them as dowels. I get 30" dowels cheap from one source just for that purpose. At $2 each, it's easy to reject half of them and find jewel coring dowels.
But, "premium dowels" with twists aren't premium. I don't care if they came from the bottom of the lake.

Next time you drive by, call me.
I might have two suppliers for you .
I have enough to last me a long time.
If not, ever.
 
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I'm afraid I'm missing your point. My only point throughout this discussion is to point out that shaft wood with crazy runout has no value to a cuemaker at all.

I was responding to you wishing me good luck with the shaft wood sales, so no one is missing anything.

I have and have seen shafts with some pretty severe run-out stay straight and play great, so it is not the end of the world if there is run-out in a shaft. The tendency is certainly there, but straight grain shafts will warp also. Perception is reality, straight grain will always rule.

Did you ask for a refund for the squares you were sold? Did the seller refuse to give you that refund? Finding good wood is not easy, and you should be entitled to a refund if not satisfied.
 
" Most of the builders I know buy & process shafts in the thousands each time, not a few hundred over a long period of time."

And to think all I want is a couple dozen good ones! I envy you guys (I think) who have thousands to select from.

When I buy 20 or 50 "premium grade" shaft squares or dowels, it doesn't take many not-so-good ones to throw me for a loss. That's why I have no problem paying a premium for them when they are good..

Getting hustled paying the premium for plain crap though...not my speed.
Yes, one can always send the crap back, and I do. But the balls some people have....
 
"

Getting hustled paying the premium for plain crap though...not my speed.
Yes, one can always send the crap back, and I do. But the balls some people have....

One supplier did that for years at Fleabay.
:eek::eek::eek:
If you get ripped-off for 10 pcs., most wouldn't even send them back b/c he was known not to refund anyway. Plus the shipping cost.
 
You got it, Joey. And when you have to return the garbage, all of a sudden the already high priced wood is now outrageous!
I appreciate the offer. I'll give you a buzz after the weekend.
 
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