Greenleaf and Buddy similarities?

[MattPoland]

Parts of Buddy's 1991 US Open 9-Ball final match victory:

Just watched that entire match. I’ll posit this with all respect to this legendary player.

If he’s held up as the player with the best cueball control ever. I hope this was him past his prime (at 46) and I haven’t seen his true best game or else I’d say even though he won he doesn’t deserve the legacy attributed to him.

I’m willing to assume “prime buddy” was never caught on tape.

 

[ShootingArts]

Just watched that entire match. I’ll posit this with all respect to this legendary player.

If he’s held up as the player with the best cueball control ever. I hope this was him past his prime (at 46) and I haven’t seen his true best game or else I’d say even though he won he doesn’t deserve the legacy attributed to him.

I’m willing to assume “prime buddy” was never caught on tape.

I think a pool player has peaked by thirty or thirty-five if not before. The slide downhill can be pretty gentle but I don't think anyone has the potential at forty-six that they had at thirty. I think the scientific claim is that a man's physical abilities peak at 26-28. Old information so that might not be the current belief.

I don't think anyone believes that Buddy had the best cue ball control ever. I think he was considered the best nine ball player in the world for a number of years. That was based on the total package though, not just cue ball control.

It has been years since I have watched much pool so I can't comment on the current generation. However, I would say that Willie Mosconi at his peak had better cue ball control than Buddy at his peak. In a different style Efren had better cue ball control also.

When we consider cue ball control, break power and other power shots, grace under pressure, planning out a rack, the confidence to come with the big shot when needed, all the things that make a pool player great, Buddy had these things.

I watched Buddy vs Parica right behind the Buddy vs Hatch match so I am not absolutely positive which match it was in n but Buddy cut a ball four inches or so off the rail about 3/4 the length of the long rail. The men in the booth assumed he would be shooting a safety.

 

[dendweller]

Just watched that entire match. I’ll posit this with all respect to this legendary player.

If he’s held up as the player with the best cueball control ever. I hope this was him past his prime (at 46) and I haven’t seen his true best game or else I’d say even though he won he doesn’t deserve the legacy attributed to him.

I’m willing to assume “prime buddy” was never caught on tape.

Second match is Buddy in '84.

 

[BasementDweller]

I certainly don’t think of Ralph and Buddy of having similar games….Ralph was more like Joshua Filler…
Buddy was much more like Steve Davis.

Ralph looks more like a loosey goosey Filipino, like a Rudolpho Luat.

Buddy is rock solid but I can't think of any comparison.

 

[BasementDweller]

Just watched that entire match. I’ll posit this with all respect to this legendary player.

If he’s held up as the player with the best cueball control ever. I hope this was him past his prime (at 46) and I haven’t seen his true best game or else I’d say even though he won he doesn’t deserve the legacy attributed to him.

I’m willing to assume “prime buddy” was never caught on tape.

That tends to be true about all the legends. This is why eye witness testimony is often not trustworthy. I have to question my own judgement when I compare - in my mind, players of yesterday to what I come across on YouTube. Some matches that I remember watching "live" on TV, play out differently when I watch them again today.

 

[garczar]

Just watched that entire match. I’ll posit this with all respect to this legendary player.

If he’s held up as the player with the best cueball control ever. I hope this was him past his prime (at 46) and I haven’t seen his true best game or else I’d say even though he won he doesn’t deserve the legacy attributed to him.

I’m willing to assume “prime buddy” was never caught on tape.

Buddy was born in '45 so his 'prime fightin yrs' were in the 70's-80's. I first saw him around '79-'80 and his game was off-the-charts. Few wanted to gamble with him unless they were getting weight. His CB control was a thing to behold and his steady pace would just put people into a cashless-coma. You're spot on as to Buddy on video, little to none exists of his prime days. No phones and most poolrooms were not real 'camera friendly' in those days.

 

[sjm]

I think a pool player has peaked by thirty or thirty-five if not before. The slide downhill can be pretty gentle but I don't think anyone has the potential at forty-six that they had at thirty. I think the scientific claim is that a man's physical abilities peak at 26-28. Old information so that might not be the current belief.

Agreed for the most part. The clear exception would be Joe Balsis, who won nearly all of his titles at 40+ years old and was a stone cold killer until he was 60. I'd further suggest that Nick Varner didn't play his very best pool until his forties. Parica played his best pool in the mid-1990s, at the age of about 45.

I don't think anyone believes that Buddy had the best cue ball control ever. I think he was considered the best nine ball player in the world for a number of years. That was based on the total package though, not just cue ball control.

Buddy is on the short list, but the reason he is viewed as the pattern play king by many is that he was the clear best among his peers in the formative years of tournament nine ball. His patterns were, indeed, the envy of many of his peers and his "clock" system helped advance the science of nine-ball position play in a way that made players around him better.

Fedor Gorst is clearly a better pattern player than Buddy ever was, but relative to his peers, Buddy might just be the best position player ever.

 

[measureman]

I was not in the Buddy Hall speed class but played pretty good short stop speed.
My best years were the '80's.
In 1980 I was 33 and played real good until 1991 when life got in the way of pool.
So from 33 to 41 were my prime years.
Just throwing it out there because several posters mentioned age.
Now at 76 I'm probably 75% of prime.
I win with smarts now instead of raw fire power.

 

[sjm]

Just watched that entire match. I’ll posit this with all respect to this legendary player.

If he’s held up as the player with the best cueball control ever. I hope this was him past his prime (at 46) and I haven’t seen his true best game or else I’d say even though he won he doesn’t deserve the legacy attributed to him.

I’m willing to assume “prime buddy” was never caught on tape.

I think most would say that Buddy played his best pool in Shreveport, Louisiana in the early 1970s. Whether there is any footage of prime Buddy, I couldn't say, but not even Sigel got the better of him back then.

 

[garczar]

Buddy offered spots to a lot of good players, a couple are HOF'rs. When he got it in gear you'd better have a comfortable chair and enough $$ to fade the onslaught.

 

[MattPoland]

Second match is Buddy in '84.

Buddy beat Jim 9-1 which on paper is a very strong performance. I just watched the entire match. Again I think it’s safe to assume this isn’t Buddy in his prime. No aspect of that match would have anyone say his cueball control was anything special. I will say if he had a very easy runout by professional standards then he was able to generally stay in line. His safety game was very weak. He had a lot of luck and showed a lot of tenacity. But there was nothing notable about his ability to control the rock in that particular match. I’m hoping to one day witness a match illustrating Buddy in his prime. Not just any old video of Buddy winning with a B-level performance against an opponent that put up a C-level performance.

Rack 1: Jim plays a weak safe, buddy returns a weak safe, Jim pockets the ball and runs out

Rack 2: Jim breaks, starts a run, plays weak position 4 to 5, Jim plays a weak safe, Buddy plays a good combo, Buddy plays weak position 5 to 7, Buddy pockets the 7 with a thin slice and gets out.

Rack 3: Buddy breaks like a leaguer scratching in the side, Jim takes ball in hand (in the kitchen) and misses the 1, Buddy makes a great 1, Buddy play weak position 2 to 3, Buddy drills a tough 3 to 4 (too straight), Buddy makes good recovery 4 to 5, Buddy plays weak position 7 to 8, Buddy plays weak position 8 to 9, Buddy makes a tough 9 with the bridge

Rack 4: Buddy wins 9 on the break with a bottom-loose rack

Rack 5: Buddy works a good routine break and run

Rack 6: Buddy slams a mud rack but is snookered on the 1, Buddy plays a weak safe, Jim attempts a very low percent 1-9 combo, Buddy tries to bank the 1 catching the point and flukes it in another pocket, Buddy clears a routine runout from there.

Rack 7: Buddy slams a rack, Buddy jumps the edge of a ball to make the 1, Buddy runs a routine runout, dogs an easy 9, and flukes it into another pocket.

Rack 8: Buddy slams a rack and loses the CB on the bottom rail, Buddy plays a weak push out, Jim pockets a long shot on the 1 with good position on the 2, Jim starts running out a routine rack, slowly loses position more and more from the 5 to 6 to 7 to 8, Jim misses a back cut on the 8, Buddy makes an easy 8 and 9

Rack 9: Buddy slams the rack, almost makes the 9 due to a bottom-loose rack, Buddy plays a great full table carom off the 1 to make the 9.

NOTE: I somehow missed a rack along the way because that last game was actually rack 10.

 

[mr3cushion]

Interesting side by side shots, strikingly similar stances that are much different from today's players.

There are none.

 

[PoolBum]

Agreed for the most part. The clear exception would be Joe Balsis, who won nearly all of his titles at 40+ years old and was a stone cold killer until he was 60. I'd further suggest that Nick Varner didn't play his very best pool until his forties. Parica played his best pool in the mid-1990s, at the age of about 45.

Don't forget Irving Crane. Born in 1913 and still winning major titles into his late 50s.

 

[ShootingArts]

Agreed for the most part. The clear exception would be Joe Balsis, who won nearly all of his titles at 40+ years old and was a stone cold killer until he was 60. I'd further suggest that Nick Varner didn't play his very best pool until his forties. Parica played his best pool in the mid-1990s, at the age of about 45.


Buddy is on the short list, but the reason he is viewed as the pattern play king by many is that he was the clear best among his peers in the formative years of tournament nine ball. His patterns were, indeed, the envy of many of his peers and his "clock" system helped advance the science of nine-ball position play in a way that made players around him better.

Fedor Gorst is clearly a better pattern player than Buddy ever was, but relative to his peers, Buddy might just be the best position player ever.

As usual, I can't disagree with anything you have said. There are always exceptions to any general rule of thumb plus you have watched far more world class pool than I have. I don't think Buddy was great for any one skill as much as his combination of skills. Buddy usually found a way to win and we don't get any style points in pool. I think that is the key, Buddy could almost always find a way to win.

Pool was in bad enough shape that I didn't consider being a pro to be a big deal when I was a shortstop. Even today you can hang the "pro" title on yourself. I actively chased a few pro's when they came to town. Something about Buddy, I knew if I managed to beat him every cent would be hard earned. Without today's information superhighways I didn't know how slim my chances were. I would have played him if he came to me, highly unlikely since I was unknown to most, but I wasn't chasing Buddy!

Hu

 

[Black-Balled]

I don’t think Buddy could drink anything like Ralph.

Buddy's breakfast gave Ralph's the 7.

 

[skogstokig]

someone mentioned on some random stream i was watching that buddy was in a wheelchair now. is that true?

 

[sjm]

Don't forget Irving Crane. Born in 1913 and still winning major titles into his late 50s.

I didn't forget him, but I was responding to a post suggesting that peaking beyond one's mid-30s was unusual. I'd put Crane's highest gear in 1939, at which time he was 26. It was the year he ran 309 on a ten-footer at straight pool. Irving played superb straight pool until the age of about 67.

 

[sjm]

Buddy's breakfast gave Ralph's the 7.

.. and Mizerak's gave Buddy the seven in this same respect.

 

[MattPoland]

.. and Mizerak's gave Buddy the seven in this same respect.

Fats would boast the same but in all honesty he’s probably playing even.

 

[garczar]

Greenleaf gave 'em ALL the orange ball(that would be the FIVE) when it came to drinking. BTW, i've sweated Buddy's eating game. He might get there against anybody.