Grip Hand Turning Under At End Of Follow Through

BRKNRUN

BRKNRUN

Showin some A$$
Silver Member
So the "Home Position" thread got me to thinking about a happening in my stroke that I have not seemed to find a way to cure.

It is not a problem.....but is is.

When I follow through (after impact) I have a tendancy on power type strokes to turn my hand under and toward my body. Since my hand moves toward my body the tip moves off line away from my body.

It does not happen on soft or medium srokes....and really never happens when I use an open bridge since the open bridge lends itself to no more than medium speed.....It "usually" happens on force follow shots.

I have tried different grips and have even tried the more traditional taught grip using the first finger and thumb. That actually makes it worse.

Since it happens after impact, I pretty much always dismissed it as a problem....However the reality is...it probably could be a problem and a cause for a mis if it happend before impact.

My recent ramp up of working on fundamentals...grip/stance/posture/alignment has me adressing this issue to see if I can fix it through one of the four fundamentals above.

Anyone else ever have/had this problem and found a "fix" to get rid of it?

I did notice while watching Billiards on TV that the Grip thumb of a couple players at impact is pointing at the ground ....after impact it moved to where it points down the aim line at the finish of the stroke....
 
Sounds like your grip hand is ahead of perpendicular. Check it out. Your grip hand should fall right under your elbow at contact.....SPF=randyg
 
I had the exact same problem. The fix action was to keep my index finger of the grip hand off the cue. So I end up with my middle and ring fingers gripping the cue.
 
Hmm. Reminds me of the "Muscle memory" thread, where it was stated that the "clean" muscle for elbow movement is the brachialis, and the biceps works strongly to supinate the forearm (the action you describe). From that it could be concluded that on a power stroke you're recruiting significant help from the biceps.
 
Mooseman's right--- cradle towards the back of the hand. Also, you can experiment with keeping your thump at the 12:00 position (top) of the cue, or keep the thump out of the picture completely and cradle with the other 4 fingers.

Ideally, you can let the cue slide and "throw" the cue. That's the ideal fix, imo.
 
SpiderWebComm said:
Mooseman's right--- cradle towards the back of the hand. Also, you can experiment with keeping your thump at the 12:00 position (top) of the cue, or keep the thump out of the picture completely and cradle with the other 4 fingers.

Ideally, you can let the cue slide and "throw" the cue. That's the ideal fix, imo.
Click to expand...


My normal grip is pretty much as Mooseman described....I support the cue with a hook mainly made by my middle finger and the ring finger has a bit of contact....The (ball) of my index finger only touches the bottom of the cue during backstroke and through impact....

The ball of my index finger touching helps to restrict my backstroke. As I draw the cue back I can feel a pressure that builds against that finger and it keeps me from drawing the cue back too far...with the finger completly off I tend to take the cue too far back (if that makes any sense)...

My Thumb points sraight down at address...only the side "kuckle" of my thumb touches the side of the cue....The side of the cue actually rotates against the side knuckle of my thumb....as I get to a finish position the thumb ends up pointing more toward the tip of the cue.

I feel like those three reference points of my grip make it more consistent.

I have tried the thumb on top move....I know a local that shoots that way and I actually liked the consitency of it......The problem with that is that it actually hurts as I draw the cue back...I could not get comfortable with that.....

I think Getmethere may be on to something....When I stroke hard I think I may sometimes be finishing in a "flexed" position....

I really need to get me a video camera.....;)
 
BRKNRUN said:
So the "Home Position" thread got me to thinking about a happening in my stroke that I have not seemed to find a way to cure.

It is not a problem.....but is is.

When I follow through (after impact) I have a tendancy on power type strokes to turn my hand under and toward my body. Since my hand moves toward my body the tip moves off line away from my body.

It does not happen on soft or medium srokes....and really never happens when I use an open bridge since the open bridge lends itself to no more than medium speed.....It "usually" happens on force follow shots.

I have tried different grips and have even tried the more traditional taught grip using the first finger and thumb. That actually makes it worse.

Since it happens after impact, I pretty much always dismissed it as a problem....However the reality is...it probably could be a problem and a cause for a mis if it happend before impact.

My recent ramp up of working on fundamentals...grip/stance/posture/alignment has me adressing this issue to see if I can fix it through one of the four fundamentals above.

Anyone else ever have/had this problem and found a "fix" to get rid of it?

I did notice while watching Billiards on TV that the Grip thumb of a couple players at impact is pointing at the ground ....after impact it moved to where it points down the aim line at the finish of the stroke....
Click to expand...

Don't worry about it Mike Sigel does the same thing and he plays damm good.
RAY MARTIN
 
BRKNRUN said:
So the "Home Position" thread got me to thinking about a happening in my stroke that I have not seemed to find a way to cure.

It is not a problem.....but is is.

When I follow through (after impact) I have a tendancy on power type strokes to turn my hand under and toward my body. Since my hand moves toward my body the tip moves off line away from my body.

It does not happen on soft or medium srokes....and really never happens when I use an open bridge since the open bridge lends itself to no more than medium speed.....It "usually" happens on force follow shots.

I have tried different grips and have even tried the more traditional taught grip using the first finger and thumb. That actually makes it worse.

Since it happens after impact, I pretty much always dismissed it as a problem....However the reality is...it probably could be a problem and a cause for a mis if it happend before impact.

My recent ramp up of working on fundamentals...grip/stance/posture/alignment has me adressing this issue to see if I can fix it through one of the four fundamentals above.

Anyone else ever have/had this problem and found a "fix" to get rid of it?

I did notice while watching Billiards on TV that the Grip thumb of a couple players at impact is pointing at the ground ....after impact it moved to where it points down the aim line at the finish of the stroke....
Click to expand...

Ken,

I think every player struggles with this to a certain extent. It's a natural movement to our muscles and tenons.

If you notice - when your hand is relaxed, make a fast fist clench and watch it. The fist cups and your forearm and wrist twist to the outside.

My suggestion is on the power strokes, go ahead and take a longer, slower,. more relaxed stroke with nice follow through and see if that does it for you. If it works, practice it. It works for me now and I had the worst power game of all time. Make sure you keep your graceful pendulum arc (not a jab). Think of keeping your cue pressed between your thumb and forefinger with just lateral tension.

I think what's going on is you're not taking a long enough stroke and that causes the clenching tension. The main thing is to focus on a smooth, relaxed transition and use the length of your stroke to develop the speed. It's amazing how little effort is needed to develop good power if you relax the stroke.

Chris
 
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ghostball said:
Don't worry about it Mike Sigel does the same thing and he plays damm good.
RAY MARTIN
Click to expand...

You're right Ray - Sigel's tip is literally diving through every shot. I always wondered how he played so good that way.

Chris
 
Hand Turning

I was doing the same thing. I did as others have stated and loosened up the index finger. It also stops after I practice my bow for a few weeks. I think it has to do with the strengthening and muscle toning from the extra work.
 
Dave...The theory behind that is sound...in that the only thing used to create the strokespeed, is the cuestick...no muscle or force. However, the flaw becomes apparent when you have to "decide" how far to let the cue slide...just another variable, to make the swing more complex. In a perfect finish, the cuetip goes to virtually the same place, every time, regardless of strokespeed. As long as the grip remains loose (but not so loose that the cue slips), the grip hand stopping against the body is what sets the limit for an unconscious swing, at any speed, with the tip finishing in the same place.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

SpiderWebComm said:
Ideally, you can let the cue slide and "throw" the cue. That's the ideal fix, imo.
Click to expand...
 
Scott Lee said:
Dave...The theory behind that is sound...in that the only thing used to create the strokespeed, is the cuestick...no muscle or force. However, the flaw becomes apparent when you have to "decide" how far to let the cue slide...just another variable, to make the swing more complex. In a perfect finish, the cuetip goes to virtually the same place, every time, regardless of strokespeed. As long as the grip remains loose (but not so loose that the cue slips), the grip hand stopping against the body is what sets the limit for an unconscious swing, at any speed, with the tip finishing in the same place.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

I disagree .. a reliable slide can be honed and can be quite consistent.. and EXTREMELY effective.. Randy even says so.. on your DVD..

I have spent the past 2 years cultivating and perfecting the sliding cue..

it is quite sound and quite effective..

TYVM

when you let the cue determine the stroke.. all those late stroke "compensations" like in the OP disappear instantly IMO

loose grip, consistant finish position, let the cue do the work.. JACKPOT
 
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a finish position refers to the grip hand NOT the TIP... my hand finishes in the same spot every time.. the tip ends up where ever the heck it ends up..

if moves slightly farther on fast shots... it moves slightly less on slow shots...who cares about the tip... my hand finishes in the same spot each time.. and as long as my grip hand does not influence the cue vector.. the grip hand has done it's job

I'm not going to add an arbitrary additional motion just to land my tip on an irrelevant pre determined spot .... I stop worrying about my cue at the moment of impact..

my stroke is going to finish and my tip ends up where ever the heck it ends up.
 
Look at it again. The "sliding cue" is a training mechanism, to teach a concept, that is not designed as a playing grip. The cuetip would not finish at the same place, if the cue actually slides (sometimes it will slide an inch, sometimes 2", sometimes 4"). The cradle should be loose enough, do that it moves easily through the range of your swing, but not so loose that it actually slides. Not only that, but the grip should remain consistent throughout the entire range of every stroke, regardless of strokespeed. You could not efficiently shoot a high speed power stroke (like the break, for instance), letting the cue slide in your grip hand.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

softshot said:
I disagree .. a reliable slide can be honed and can be quite consistent.. and EXTREMELY effective.. Randy even says so.. on your DVD..

I have spent the past 2 years cultivating and perfecting the sliding cue..

it is quite sound and quite effective..

TYVM

when you let the cue determine the stroke.. all those late stroke "compensations" like in the OP disappear instantly IMO

loose grip, consistant finish position, let the cue do the work.. JACKPOT
Click to expand...
 
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I didn't realize that I did this until I saw it on video with Steve Jennings. The only time I do it is on a hard shot and the reason is because I am clenching the butt of my cue. I still do twist every now and then, but I do know it immediately when I do it.

The way I've been able to practice not doing this is by concentrating on relaxing my grip hand during drills. I'll start with a soft stroke and work my way through to a hard stroke concentrating on keeping my grip hand the same regardless. This might sound crazy, but the important part of that is not making the shot....it's keeping your grip hand the same on each speed.

The way I set it up is to have the CB on the line with the OB one diamond away shooting into the corner pocket of the other side of the table. The object is to draw the CB to the short rail. After each successful shot (you don't clench, or twist) you move the OB one diamond further away while leaving the CB the same distance and still try to reach the short rail with the CB.

The best part of this simple exercise is that you will find that you don't need to hit the CB nearly as hard as you think you need to. Another great part is that you will find that your stroke will feel a lot purer and you will find yourself thinking "that felt good" after stroking.
 
randyg said:
Sounds like your grip hand is ahead of perpendicular. Check it out. Your grip hand should fall right under your elbow at contact.....SPF=randyg
Click to expand...

I had the same problem as the OP, and what Randy mentions here ended up being the cause (as evidenced by the video we were shooting at the time).

The solution was, as told to me by Scott Lee and mentioned now by Randy, to find a grip position that puts your arm at exactly perpendicular at contact.

Hope this helps. It did for me.
 
Scott Lee said:
You could not efficiently shoot a high speed power stroke (like the break, for instance), letting the cue slide in your grip hand.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

That's not true. I can explode the balls without even touching the cue, let alone letting it slide. With lots of practice, once can master the slide (or in my case throw) to the point where you can do anything - somethings better than holding on to the cue. I can break a 9-ball rack while throwing the cue through the CB. Nick Mannino was the guy who taught me the technique years ago.

I think it was Superstar or wanted me to video tape a hard draw shot while throwing the cue. I actually hit my max on my 2nd attempt, so the technique is very consistent (for me at least, because I practice it).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWrchihrkpw

I'm NOT saying it's right for everyone. In fact, I considering it an advanced technique. I'm sure you can use it as a training tool; but as far as playing goes-- a beginning player has zero chance of controlling it. The timing required is crucial - if one releases too early, you'll destroy the shot. I know this has been hashed out in the past in other threads, so I'm not going to beat a dead horse. There are no traditional shots that can't be done VERY effectively with a throw/slide.
 
ghostball said:
Don't worry about it Mike Sigel does the same thing and he plays damm good.
RAY MARTIN
Click to expand...

I have now been watching Sigel for months at Chalmpion Billiards in Frederick. He ABSOLUTELY does not turn his wrist on the follow through. The cue is delivered perfectly straight.
 
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