GRIP QUESTION

bbb said:
little by little
i am beginning to understand you....:eek:.......:)
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Hand pronation or supination is performed at the elbow, not the wrist, so it abducts or adducts the shoulder (rotates the hub of the shoulder away or towards from the body since the upper arm tends to follow the lower arm's rotation).

The other four hand directions of movement, palmar flexion, dorsiflexion, radial deviation and ulnar deviation, require no lower arm or shoulder movement (although the arm and shoulder tend to take up the slack pressure of the hand's movement when the cue weight sits in the hand as a counter-move).

One of WS's (excellent) points is that you can pre-set or stroke-set certain hand positions to create advantageous leverage, storing of energy, release of energy, through the stroke.

Specifically, and this is me talking, not WS, you may see a pro with their hand not relaxing/hanging with gravity but elevated, which elevation creates some helpful tension in the elbow and etc. for a good stroke. A little bit of pronation or supination, or holding the hand a bit forward and upward, changing the arc of the stroke from what someone else might use.
 
BilliardsAbout said:
Hand pronation or supination is performed at the elbow, not the wrist, so it abducts or adducts the shoulder (rotates the hub of the shoulder away or towards from the body since the upper arm tends to follow the lower arm's rotation).

The other four hand directions of movement, palmar flexion, dorsiflexion, radial deviation and ulnar deviation, require no lower arm or shoulder movement (although the arm and shoulder tend to take up the slack pressure of the hand's movement when the cue weight sits in the hand as a counter-move).

One of WS's (excellent) points is that you can pre-set or stroke-set certain hand positions to create advantageous leverage, storing of energy, release of energy, through the stroke.

Specifically, and this is me talking, not WS, you may see a pro with their hand not relaxing/hanging with gravity but elevated, which elevation creates some helpful tension in the elbow and etc. for a good stroke. A little bit of pronation or supination, or holding the hand a bit forward and upward, changing the arc of the stroke from what someone else might use.
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I dont think your first paragraph is correct
As i understand it
The humerus does not have to move to pronate the forearm.
 
Lol....I'm reading through this thread and wondering what possible benefit there is for calling it a "push" or a "pull" of the cue. To me it makes zero difference. And that goes for "throwing" the cue forward also.

With that said, I place my 2 cents on "push" for the forward stroke. On almost every shot, the cue's center of mass is in front of the grip hand. So on the back stroke we pull the cue back, and on the forward stroke we push it forward.

What would really be interesting is if someone could actually explain why any of this matters.

Is it a mental thing?

Does stroke quality hinge upon whether or not the player feels like the cue is being pushed or pulled forward?

I don't think it matters. Because what it feels like isn't always what is physically happening. Anyhow, I don't believe there is any benefit for a player to have this stuff in their head.
 
Too much INFO, and then along comes ''analysis paralysis.'':eek:

Push or pull?

I've always taught, striking the cue ball to the contact point on the object ball is a ''throwing motion''.
But if you slow down before striking the cue ball, it's a form of kill shot.
A shot that Darren Appleton is Very good at.

We all know push shots are illegal, unless you incorporate it into your legal roll out or if you can get away with it :).

Moving the cue stick forward to strike the object ball.... this motion is identical to a baseball pitchers throw.
During the wind up, the arm comes back then ''transitions to the forward Throw-movement.''
The transition point is identical to a shooter's version of ''top of the swing''.
 
BilliardsAbout said:
Hand pronation or supination is performed at the elbow, not the wrist, so it abducts or adducts the shoulder (rotates the hub of the shoulder away or towards from the body since the upper arm tends to follow the lower arm's rotation).

The other four hand directions of movement, palmar flexion, dorsiflexion, radial deviation and ulnar deviation, require no lower arm or shoulder movement (although the arm and shoulder tend to take up the slack pressure of the hand's movement when the cue weight sits in the hand as a counter-move).

One of WS's (excellent) points is that you can pre-set or stroke-set certain hand positions to create advantageous leverage, storing of energy, release of energy, through the stroke.

Specifically, and this is me talking, not WS, you may see a pro with their hand not relaxing/hanging with gravity but elevated, which elevation creates some helpful tension in the elbow and etc. for a good stroke. A little bit of pronation or supination, or holding the hand a bit forward and upward, changing the arc of the stroke from what someone else might use.
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I agree with everyrhing but the first paragraph.
 
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Island Drive said:
Too much INFO, and then along comes ''analysis paralysis.'':eek:

Push or pull?

I've always taught, striking the cue ball to the contact point on the object ball is a ''throwing motion''.
But if you slow down before striking the cue ball, it's a form of kill shot.
A shot that Darren Appleton is Very good at.

We all know push shots are illegal, unless you incorporate it into your legal roll out or if you can get away with it :).

Moving the cue stick forward to strike the object ball.... this motion is identical to a baseball pitchers throw.
During the wind up, the arm comes back then ''transitions to the forward Throw-movement.''
The transition point is identical to a shooter's version of ''top of the swing''.
Click to expand...
and fwiw, throws are pulls.. .. not that it matters lol.
 
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Forearm rotation (or circumduction if we're being technical) has zero effect or abduction and adduction. Also, while not strictly a wrist move bc it iccurs in the forearms, pronation and suppination are commonly included in wrist motion charts like in post 22 bc the orientation of the hand is affected.
BilliardsAbout said:
Hand pronation or supination is performed at the elbow, not the wrist, so it abducts or adducts the shoulder (rotates the hub of the shoulder away or towards from the body since the upper arm tends to follow the lower arm's rotation).
Click to expand...
 
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The shoulder knob doesn't move during the rolling of the wrists from the elbow (pronation/supination) but the supporting muscles do move and it feels like the shoulder "meat" abducts or adducts.

Of course, I'm being a pedant, you are talking about a SLIGHT pronation, for example, in the pool grip, and the player should not feel upper arm or shoulder movement per se, it is slight also. Obviously, if you fully pronate or supinate the lower arm/hand, you will feel the motion I'm describing.

Thanks for your comments.
 
BilliardsAbout said:
The shoulder knob doesn't move during the rolling of the wrists from the elbow (pronation/supination) but the supporting muscles do move and it feels like the shoulder "meat" abducts or adducts.

Of course, I'm being a pedant, you are talking about a SLIGHT pronation, for example, in the pool grip, and the player should not feel upper arm or shoulder movement per se, it is slight also. Obviously, if you fully pronate or supinate the lower arm/hand, you will feel the motion I'm describing.

Thanks for your comments.
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the motion u are describing is not adduction or abduction. That much is clear. Im guessing u mean external/internal shoulder rotation.
 
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BilliardsAbout said:
I'm yet again writing just moments after rolling my own arm, my shoulder moves. :)
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It might rotate but the humerus (upper arm bone) neither moves away from the body (abduction) nor towards it (adduction). FWIW Im in a Muskoka chair up at a cottage and with my elbow resting on the arm rest and hand up in the air Ive been moving my hand 180degrees around from max pronation to max suppination. the humerus doesnt flinch.

If i hang it, same thing. thumb can go from pointing towards body to pointing away... no abduction/adduction. These are different movements.
 

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WobblyStroke said:
It might rotate but the humerus (upper arm bone) neither moves away from the body (abduction) nor towards it (adduction). FWIW Im in a Muskoka chair up at a cottage and with my elbow resting on the arm rest and hand up in the air Ive been moving my hand 180degrees around from max pronation to max suppination. the humrrous.....(humerus).... doesnt flinch.

If i hang it, same thing. thumb can go from pointing towards body to pointing away... no abduction/adduction. These are different movements.
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BilliardsAbout said:
I'm yet again writing just moments after rolling my own arm, my shoulder moves. :)
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see post #143....;)
 
WobblyStroke said:
It might rotate but the humerus (upper arm bone) neither moves away from the body (abduction) nor towards it (adduction). FWIW Im in a Muskoka chair up at a cottage and with my elbow resting on the arm rest and hand up in the air Ive been moving my hand 180degrees around from max pronation to max suppination. the humerus doesnt flinch.

If i hang it, same thing. thumb can go from pointing towards body to pointing away... no abduction/adduction. These are different movements.
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WobblyStroke said:
ha... thanks for the edit on humerus. i swear autocorrect was off and it's hard to fat finger whatever came out. edited now.
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well
i am always happy to help....(y)
but if i was in a "MUSKOKA CHAIR" i wouldnt spell so good either....😂
 
this should help to clarify things 😂....pronation with a continental grip....😂😂
disclaimer
the views of the video are the views of the person who made the video😂
 
Island Drive said:
Too much INFO, and then along comes ''analysis paralysis.'':eek:

Push or pull?

I've always taught, striking the cue ball to the contact point on the object ball is a ''throwing motion''.
But if you slow down before striking the cue ball, it's a form of kill shot.
A shot that Darren Appleton is Very good at.

We all know push shots are illegal, unless you incorporate it into your legal roll out or if you can get away with it :).

Moving the cue stick forward to strike the object ball.... this motion is identical to a baseball pitchers throw.
During the wind up, the arm comes back then ''transitions to the forward Throw-movement.''
The transition point is identical to a shooter's version of ''top of the swing''.
Click to expand...
A push shot is illegal (brooming/sweeping the cue ball in motion) but a pushing movement to stroke the cue forward through impact isn't.
 
BilliardsAbout said:
A push shot is illegal (brooming/sweeping the cue ball in motion) but a pushing movement to stroke the cue forward through impact isn't.
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true it is mot illegal. But how can ome even perform the pushing action and maintain any semblance of 'the fundamentals'. IMO what Island Drive wrote is spot on. Most techniques are simple throws. Throws are pulls. This is why I said right at the beginning that the physicists in here and the biomechanics guys are using the same word differently.

When focused on the object and where force is applied to it, it is a push of the cue. fine.

When focused on body movement and what actions are performed, it is clearly a pulling (or throwing if u prefer) action.

physicists: object is being pushed so it is a push.
biomechanics: since a pulling action is performed to generate movement, it's a pull.

IIt doesn't really matter what u call it I guess. The cue is being pushed by a pulling motion just sounds weird to me so Ima continue just calling strokes pulls since thats what we make our bodies do.

If u have an example of a pushing motion stroke I'd love to hear it. I could only think of a couple but they are both a departure from anything conventional.
 
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