Everybody: What does either one have to do with playing better pool?
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GRIP QUESTION
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WobblyStroke
Well-known member
I guess the one thing I could think of is that if it us understood as a throw or pull, one can study those and come to a better understanding of the mechanics involved and improve their technique.
But ur right, thís is all pretty much semantics and what we call it doesnt change what it is.
When stroking all the way, fully back, to the fleshy section of my hand at the base of the forefinger and thumb, there is a bit of added oopmh to reverse direction. Since the cue tip has raised in height, it can be thought of as a small dropping down or a bit of conscious acceleration. More push than throw, this.
After the initial reverse of direction, acceleration should be subconscious and is practically automated. Now its more toss or pull (for me, for my stroke) into impact with the cb and beyond.
Beyond the semantics, I chose to teach this to several students in clinic last week to get the feel of a full backstroke and full forward stroke. There are many (most) league players these days who take a long bridge for most every shot, backstroke and inch to four inches or so, and lunge forward without that distinct, pro-like, "smooth, oily, gliding, flowing" stroke action.
pagaspoling
Member
If I don't have any extending or flexing of the elbow just have a steady arm and move from the shoulder I would consider that a pushing motion. And its pretty much what I do when i break.
But I don't understand what makes a stroke a "simple throw" and why all throws are pulls. Shot put and basketball shots is in my world push throws. And why is it helpful to model the stroke as a throw?
WobblyStroke
Well-known member
shot put is a push. actually 'throwing' in shotput is illegal and doesnt count. plus it risks injury.
basketball is cpmplicated and can be performed various ways. a larry bird type catapult is a clear and obvious pull. a forcefull arm extension is a push. that said with a passive wrist snap characteristic of throws it can be thought of and even felt as a pull. this is def one that is best left as a 'complex movement' that is a coordinated act but not only a push or pull. any throw that 'cracks the whip' so to speak has forces going in opposite directions at different times not unlike how u have to have a little tug on the towel you flung forward to really snap the end and leave a mark on a buddy in the locker room.
and ye, the shoulder one is one of the cpl i mentioned i could think of but are a big departure from conventional strokes.
as far as modeling, many coaches have taught this way for ages. it helps people tap into something they know how to do and perform naturally. Also, just from a biomechanics perspective, if u models throws, all the components u have to include are also present in how most ppl perform pool strokes. not all. but certainly most. as always, there are other ways.
pagaspoling
Member
I think that it encourages a straighter stroke where you try to have your hand movement pushing in the direction of the COM of the cue in the froward stroke. I don't know if it makes a player better but I think that a coach has to understand it in order to choose which stroke pattern he or she teaches.
pagaspoling
Member
As long as you know what movements that's involved and how they sequence I don't see any reason to categorize the pool stroke either as a pull motion or throw just as you do with the basketball example above.
This is the stretch shorten cycle and that is present in all forceful muscle actions and together with proper sequencing it will produce even greater power. To me it's just more helpful to define the stroke with the proper biomechanical terms. You load the muscles eccentrically in the back stroke the in the forward stroke you use the load together with concentric contractions in order to accelerate the cue. It's not really a throw since you're holding on to the cue AND use it to hit another object. I view it as an athletic motion and try to model it both to produce both power and accuracy through the full stroke.
I think we all know that you can't push and pull the same object at the same time, which is what trips people up in trying to decide if a stroke is a push or pull. So if you can't push and pull the cue at the same time you have to determine one or the other. It's illogical to say that you're pulling the part behind the hand and pushing the part in front of the hand at the same time. That concept is only relevent when the entire object is either in front or behind the hand.
Therefore, in the case of a pool stroke with cue in hand, the motion is a push if the shoulder is engaged and a pull if it is a pendulum stroke below the elbow. And depending on the player, it's even possible to be both a push and pull at different points in the stroke. For example, the stroke may start out as a pendulum motion and then mid-way the shoulder gets engaged and the arm drops, which makes it a pull into a push.
Therefore, in the case of a pool stroke with cue in hand, the motion is a push if the shoulder is engaged and a pull if it is a pendulum stroke below the elbow. And depending on the player, it's even possible to be both a push and pull at different points in the stroke. For example, the stroke may start out as a pendulum motion and then mid-way the shoulder gets engaged and the arm drops, which makes it a pull into a push.
WobblyStroke
Well-known member
thats how throws work. and yes technically when multiple joints are incolved in throws the movement is considered a 'complex movement'. Simplified, each link in the kinetic chain is tugged on by the one b4 it and they are much more like pure pulls than pushes.
just bc u hold on through a release doesnt change how u got there. tennis swings have a release but u hold on. so do golf swings. both sports have a subset of coaches that teach the swings by having students actually release and throw the racquet or club. the same approach can be applied in pool to feel out and time the release of the cue. then to perform a stroke u simply hold on through the release. but the sequencing and timing are exactly the same. slip strokes are a perfect example. players that slip the cue are actually releasing it. it just happens to get caught before flying off wildly.
as mentioned, there are other ways. but for a large proportion of players a throw concept fits perfectly. it is just infinitely easier to get a student to tap into something complex they already know how to do in their way than to build up from scratch.
edit: I'll add that while I agree that using precise language to describe movement is a must in developing models and discussing said movements amongst experts, it is a poor approach with laymen students. In a third year biomechanics course, my prof stsrted the course by asking if anyone could demonstrate a movement which he then described in the most technical way possible. Even tho all the students understood the terminology, the sheer volume of simultaneous actions to perform scared away everyone from volunteering. He was describing walking. In the same way, telling a student to make a throwing action is a far simpler way to get them to feel and do what u described in ur last paragraph. Tey already know how that feels and how they do that (there are different ways to throw as well of course). By throwing a bunch of technical terms at them u r more likely to confuse them. it is more harmful than helpful with most ppl imo.
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I had a lesson from Corey at my home back in 2013, and he told me the same thing.
I think it's illogical to say otherwise - but I also don't see how it matters.
pj
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I don't think the gap itself causes lateral movement - I think that's caused by closing the gap during the stroke. You can have a gap without lateral movement if you don't change the gap during the stroke.
pj
chgo
To get a refresher of this topic, we’re talking about the “gap” from the cue stick to the body causing lateral movement during the stroke?
I can definitely agree that most of my “mishits” LOL result from cue deflection during the stroke.
I know what someone is going to say - “A crooked stroke can still shoot straight.”
Watch the video:
I can definitely agree that most of my “mishits” LOL result from cue deflection during the stroke.
I know what someone is going to say - “A crooked stroke can still shoot straight.”
Watch the video:
I think we're talking about the grip -- how closed the grip hand is. Some players have a grip so loose that there is daylight (gap) around it. The orthodox advice is to not have a gap and to not change the shape of the hand at least for the part that provides the grip -- thumb and finger(s).
I see - it still helps to see this topic being discussed.
WobblyStroke
Well-known member
K I will bite...I know what someone is going to say - “A crooked stroke can still shoot straight.”
Hoppe, Mosconi, Bustamante, Earl (Trump too if you include snooker guys) ... some of the best players ever have visibly crooked strokes. Well Earl's isn't so obvious, but he talks about his arc that has a bias to the right in his commentary. He mistakenly attributes this stroke bias to all righties, claiming lefties will have a left side bias. For long stroking 'swingers' like Earl, this is true. But certainly not for orthodox methods of cue delivery.
edit: on the women's side, Chou Cheih Yu is pretty damn crooked on her stroke shots.
I've never heard anyone say Mosconi had a crooked stroke before. When he was in his later years he developed a kind of body language that caused the tip to veer at the end of the follow through. Maybe that's what you are referring to.