GRIP QUESTION

[pagaspoling]

What do you change?

Just trying to minimize vertical motion of the cue through impact and after. On some long strokes the cue is raised a bit just in the end of the backstroke but i would like to see the cue go toward the point of contact as soon as possible after that.

 

[bbb]

this discussion is interesting even if it is not a discussion of grip.....

 

[bbb]

Just trying to minimize vertical motion of the cue through impact and after. On some long strokes the cue is raised a bit just in the end of the backstroke but i would like to see the cue go toward the point of contact as soon as possible after that.

so are you an advocate of the "J" stroke
from dr dave (i bolded some of his statement)
A “J” stroke is a combination of a pendulum and piston stroke, where the grip hand follows the pendulum motion on the back swing and forward swing into the ball, and then the grip moves in a straight line (with elbow drop) after CB contact and during follow through. If you trace out the path of the grip hand, it looks like a “J” turned sideways. If done well, this gives the benefits of the pendulum stroke tip contact point accuracy, and the follow through of a piston-stroke, but some people might have trouble with dropping the elbow at the right time and right amount consistently.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Just trying to minimize vertical motion of the cue through impact and after. On some long strokes the cue is raised a bit just in the end of the backstroke but i would like to see the cue go toward the point of contact as soon as possible after that.

And you wouldn't need to do this if the cue's weight was mostly behind the grip hand? Why not?

pj
chgo

 

[pagaspoling]

so are you an advocate of the "J" stroke

Not really, I use shoulder motion through the back and forward stroke in order to keep the cue more level. More like a piston with a little bit of J-stroke, but in a bigger arch than a pure pendulum.

And you wouldn't need to do this if the cue's weight was mostly behind the grip hand? Why not?

When you pull on something it wants to line up with the direction the force. But if you would like to have a cue like that you would have a lot of other problems in your stroke...

 

[Patrick Johnson]

With the weight in front of the hand the cue will want to rotate around its COM.

How can it rotate around its COM with its shaft held motionless at the bridge?

pj
chgo

 

[pagaspoling]

How can it rotate around its COM with its shaft held motionless at the bridge?

Any force thats not in line with the COM wants to rotate the cue. I haven't said it will rotate, only that I would avoid forcing the cue in that way.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Any force thats not in line with the COM wants to rotate the cue. I haven't said it will rotate, only that I would avoid forcing the cue in that way.

If the cue won't rotate, why would you need to "force the cue" to stop that?

I haven't heard anything yet (from anybody, not just you) that the idea of pushing vs. pulling the cue reveals any real problem that needs to be corrected or avoided. That's why it doesn't matter to me.

pj
chgo

 

[pagaspoling]

That's why it doesn't matter to me.

Nice, then I'm going to stop answering your questions

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Nice, then I'm going to stop answering your questions

Thanks for hanging with me as long as you did.

pj
chgo

 

[FranCrimi]

For many many years, everyone preached that all players must pause at the end of their backstrokes because in order to change directions, one muscle group must stop and the other then will start. Everyone was in agreement with this, including our scientific community. At one point I think there was a challenge concerning the definition of 'pause' having to do with the length of time, but there was no debate as to whether or not there was a change of direction.

I'm not claiming to be the first one in the history of mankind to challenge this but I don't know of anyone who did it before me when I suggested here some years back that the Filipino stroke was a continuous loop (rather than a piston stroke, as everyone believed,) and there was no change in direction.

Today, that stroke is accepted as the continuous loop stroke.

So did the Filipino stroke or the conventional stroke change due to this new understanding? No. But our understanding of the two types of strokes became clearer.

So my question is: For those who say the portion of the cue behind the hand is being pulled and the portion in front of the hand is being pushed --- Can you be pushing and pulling a single object at the same time? There must be a scientific answer to that question. I know I'm not the first person in the history of mankind to ask it. And those who don't care can sit back and wait until the facts emerge, and then they can adjust how they think about it without doing any of the work.

 

[tableroll]

I think it's the worst way. Just because some pros play that way, and some teachers recommend that way, it doesn't mean it's the best way. I have seen too many players come to me with twisting problems and the culprits were always the first two fingers. If your hand isn't naturally rolling on the cue as your arm moves forward, then you are fighting your anatomy. That grip works against the player's anatomy. You can see it just by watching those players. It's less efficient and there are more possibilities for the stroke to go off line.

How about the middle finger and the ring finger next to it? Or would you say all four fingers?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...those who don't care can sit back and wait until the facts emerge

lol

I don't think I have that long.

pj
chgo

 

[FranCrimi]

How about the middle finger and the ring finger next to it? Or would you say all four fingers?

Well, you can start with a light fist grip with all fingers on the cue and the main pressure on the last three. That's your starting point and where you want to be at the finish. Then, as the arm moves back, the hand rolls slightly forward, and then the thumb and index finger gently release as the as the cue moves forward and the hand rolls back into place --- no fingers leave the cue but the pressure rolls to the last three right around impact and into the follow through position. This is how the hand rolls back and forth naturally as the arm moves through. There's absolutely no hand manipulation going on --- just the result of the arm moving through. The wrist remains straight and consistent with the hand. There's no flexing or pronating of the wrist.

As I wrote before, there are cases where hand manipulation comes into play, but not for the majority of shots.

 

[WobblyStroke]

Well, you can start with a light fist grip with all fingers on the cue and the main pressure on the last three. That's your starting point and where you want to be at the finish. Then, as the arm moves back, the hand rolls slightly forward, and then the thumb and index finger gently release as the as the cue moves forward and the hand rolls back into place --- no fingers leave the cue but the pressure rolls to the last three right around impact and into the follow through position. This is how the hand rolls back and forth naturally as the arm moves through. There's absolutely no hand manipulation going on --- just the result of the arm moving through. The wrist remains straight and consistent with the hand. There's no flexing or pronating of the wrist.

As I wrote before, there are cases where hand manipulation comes into play, but not for the majority of shots.

Fran you might as well stop mentioning pronating. You don't understand what a pronated grip is and every time you mention it you mischaracterize it lol.

A pronated grip is one where the hand goes on to the cue in a pronated position. It stays stable in that position. The idea of pronating actively at impact is absurd and not at all what anyone advocating for a pronated grip ever suggests. The entire idea is that the pronated position increases stability and keeps the conditions of the wrist/hand pretty much feeling stable and unchanging. Most people use the term interchangeably with 'thumb-down'...which is inaccurate but the thumb pointing down is a feature of this hand position. Pronating (and remaining pronated) is one of the ways players stabilize and lock in a thumb-down orientation of the hand.

Honestly, for all that you've said about the grip it wouldn't surprise me if yours was actually pronated lol. This position fits like a glove with a back 3 finger grip (tho it works with any fingers, even those 'twisting' front fingers you rail about....the pronation prevents the twisting.). There is excellent stability through the wrist/hand, making it unchanging through delivery. And yes, there is absolutely no pronating at impact lol...that would be pointless and counterproductive and nobody who ever suggests a pronated grip ever had that in mind...this was only mentioned by you, and as I said, is a complete misrepresentation of what a pronated grip is.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I happen to think that it's really interesting as to how we would define movement of an object in our hand that extends both behind and forward of the hand.

How about…

The part of the cue in the hand is a mix of pulled/pushed: all pulled at the back, 50/50 at dead center, all pushed at the front, and an evenly shifting mix in between.

About what we’d get in arbitration.

pj
chgo

 

[pagaspoling]

Can you be pushing and pulling a single object at the same time?

You could do both pulling and pushing motions in order to apply force to an object. If you throw a ball to the ground you would extend your elbow (push) and extend and or adduct your shoulder (pull). But that's
from a human movement perspective.

If you change the frame of reference to the cue the only thing that matters is what forces that is acting upon it, not how the forces is produced. If you only apply force from on point you either push or pull the object you are applying force to in order to do both you have to have one more point where you apply force. Push or pull are linear momentum but if your pull or push is not in line with the COM you will produce angular momentum as well. Angular momentum will behave differently if the linear momentum is pulling or pushing.

 

[FranCrimi]

Fran you might as well stop mentioning pronating. You don't understand what a pronated grip is and every time you mention it you mischaracterize it lol.

A pronated grip is one where the hand goes on to the cue in a pronated position. It stays stable in that position. The idea of pronating actively at impact is absurd and not at all what anyone advocating for a pronated grip ever suggests. The entire idea is that the pronated position increases stability and keeps the conditions of the wrist/hand pretty much feeling stable and unchanging. Most people use the term interchangeably with 'thumb-down'...which is inaccurate but the thumb pointing down is a feature of this hand position. Pronating (and remaining pronated) is one of the ways players stabilize and lock in a thumb-down orientation of the hand.

Honestly, for all that you've said about the grip it wouldn't surprise me if yours was actually pronated lol. This position fits like a glove with a back 3 finger grip (tho it works with any fingers, even those 'twisting' front fingers you rail about....the pronation prevents the twisting.). There is excellent stability through the wrist/hand, making it unchanging through delivery. And yes, there is absolutely no pronating at impact lol...that would be pointless and counterproductive and nobody who ever suggests a pronated grip ever had that in mind...this was only mentioned by you, and as I said, is a complete misrepresentation of what a pronated grip is.

I really don't care how you characterize the word. According to Websters Dictionary, 'pronate' is an intransitive verb. I'm using the word in terms of movement. I'm referring to players who pronate their wrists during their stroke. You can use it any way you like, but leave me out of your definitions.

 

[FranCrimi]

You could do both pulling and pushing motions in order to apply force to an object. If you throw a ball to the ground you would extend your elbow (push) and extend and or adduct your shoulder (pull). But that's
from a human movement perspective.

If you change the frame of reference to the cue the only thing that matters is what forces that is acting upon it, not how the forces is produced. If you only apply force from on point you either push or pull the object you are applying force to in order to do both you have to have one more point where you apply force. Push or pull are linear momentum but if your pull or push is not in line with the COM you will produce angular momentum as well. Angular momentum will behave differently if the linear momentum is pulling or pushing.

But the question I'm asking is 'at the same time,' not as separate movements within the same stroke or arm swing. What's being said here is that the portion of a cue behind the hand is being pulled while the portion ahead of the hand is being pushed --- at the exact same time and with the same movement.

 

[WobblyStroke]

I really don't care how you characterize the word. According to Websters Dictionary, 'pronate' is an intransitive verb. I'm using the word in terms of movement. I'm referring to players who pronate their wrists during their stroke. You can use it any way you like, but leave me out of your definitions.

Doubling down on a lost position as always eh Fran? You're the only one who uses words in her own special way and that's why I had to post you that anatomical movements of the wrist pic so we at least use the same language. Now you're like a kid that just learned a new word and you're using it all wrong. Not one half decent player pronates during the delivery of the stroke. That's what my response to you was about...nobody does this.

Now if we include the backswing, many players pronate passively as a loose hanging wrist that is allowed to move freely will naturally load into a pronated position in the backswing. That is kinda the point of the pronatED grip (to preset a natural load). See the suffix? Those matter. That means the pronation had already occured in the past. The position following a pronation is called a pronated position. That's what a pronated grip is....one where a pronation was performed to orient the hand a certain way, thumb-down being one of the features, and then it remains in that position and is therefore stable throughout the stroke.