Guide to Finding your Vision Center

Johnnyt

Burn all jump cues
Silver Member
I wonder why the standard amongst professionals and amateurs is higher now across all billiard disciplines now than it was 100,50 or even 20 years ago. You will always get a few stand out players of any Era, but the standard to day is far higher as a majority than it ever has been... Because of people's knowledge of the things you mention.

I'm sorry to say I have to agree with you. There are many more top players today for sure, but I believe it's because of books like Mark Wilson's and others that teach a good foundation so you can fit it to what's comfortable for their game. Almost every sport in the U.S that we were ahead in has been taken over from 3rd world countries and from poor areas of this country. Why? Because they are hungry and will train hard for a better life. Johnnyt
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
... assuming this is where the stick should be when you shoot, how do you know where it is when you're in a shot situation?
FYI, there is some advice on how to do this on the vision center resource page:

When playing, you can verify that your vision center is aligned properly by touching your chin to cue if your stance is low enough to do this. Otherwise, when down in your stance, just glance down with your eyes (with the head still) to see where the cue is relative to your eyes and nose. Obviously, you want the cue in the same place as it was when you determined your "vision center." Regardless of what you use as your "vision center" position, the most important factor is being as consistent as possible so your brain can learn to judge the full range of shots from the same perspective.

Again, assuming this position is better than any other. I don't know if that is true, and if it has ever been tested in a systematic way.
... that's why the drills on the vision center resource page are useful. They provide convincing evidence of whether or not your vision center is in the right place.

Regards,
Dave

PS to BeiberLvr: FYI, I've added your mirror test to the resource page. Good job.
 

iusedtoberich

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
FYI, there is some advice on how to do this on the vision center resource page:

When playing, you can verify that your vision center is aligned properly by touching your chin to cue if your stance is low enough to do this. Otherwise, when down in your stance, just glance down with your eyes (with the head still) to see where the cue is relative to your eyes and nose. Obviously, you want the cue in the same place as it was when you determined your "vision center." Regardless of what you use as your "vision center" position, the most important factor is being as consistent as possible so your brain can learn to judge the full range of shots from the same perspective.

... that's why the drills on the vision center resource page are useful. They provide convincing evidence of whether or not your vision center is in the right place.

Regards,
Dave

PS to BeiberLvr: FYI, I've added your mirror test to the resource page. Good job.

Thanks, I read through your page, and will try some of those at the table maybe next week. PS, please put BeiberLvr's playing card photo and instruction in your capture of his method. That was a lot easier to understand.
 

Neil

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Ok. Maybe it's cause I really don't read into the scientific mumbo jumbo about pool.

But is there solid scientific evidence that one eye dominance vs the other, or the dominant eye positioning during shooting...makes a difference?

Yes, there is. To see the value of having your head in the correct position for your vision center, there is a simple test. Set up some shots angled to the left pocket. Record your make percentage on them.

Now set up the same shots on the right side of the table. Record your percentage on them also. Compare the results. Most people will do better cutting balls one way than the other way. That is because they are actually seeing two different pictures instead of the same picture.
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
FYI, there is some advice on how to do this on the vision center resource page:

When playing, you can verify that your vision center is aligned properly by touching your chin to cue if your stance is low enough to do this. Otherwise, when down in your stance, just glance down with your eyes (with the head still) to see where the cue is relative to your eyes and nose. Obviously, you want the cue in the same place as it was when you determined your "vision center." Regardless of what you use as your "vision center" position, the most important factor is being as consistent as possible so your brain can learn to judge the full range of shots from the same perspective.

... that's why the drills on the vision center resource page are useful. They provide convincing evidence of whether or not your vision center is in the right place.

Regards,
Dave

PS to BeiberLvr: FYI, I've added your mirror test to the resource page. Good job.
Thanks, I read through your page, and will try some of those at the table maybe next week. PS, please put BeiberLvr's playing card photo and instruction in your capture of his method. That was a lot easier to understand.
Good idea. Done.

Regards,
Dave
 

tucson9ball

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If all these things like eye placement, aiming systems, perfect PSR, super dupa tips, $40 chalk, and custom cues were worth worrying about, no one would ever run a 100 balls. Wonder how all the greats, both male and female that are in the HOF made 3 balls in a row W/O all this special stuff. Johnnyt

I'm sorry to say I have to agree with you. There are many more top players today for sure, but I believe it's because of books like Mark Wilson's and others that teach a good foundation so you can fit it to what's comfortable for their game. Almost every sport in the U.S that we were ahead in has been taken over from 3rd world countries and from poor areas of this country. Why? Because they are hungry and will train hard for a better life. Johnnyt

LOL, you sir I could probably enjoy an evening of pool playing and BS'ing.
Back to the OP.....OK we know which eye is dominant, is this info going to make us line up a shot different? I get over my cue and line up/aim where I want to hit, then I pull the trigger. Assuming I stroke through straight without twisting my wrist or arm and assuming I use the correct speed....I should pocket the ball and get position on the next one.
I purposely left out any use of English, that would open a whole new can of worms ie: adjusting to throw, squirt(backhand English/forehand English) and all that stuff.
Ah, if it were just that easy to know which eye is dominant and "voila" now I can't miss a ball? There is much more to it.
I will admit, it's nice knowing all these different things and working them out on the practice table. After a while they should become automatic. You can't worry about how your holding your cue or which eye is dominant while in the middle of a tournament or money match. Make these things automatic so you can relax and play your game.
And......remember to breathe through your eyelids :rolleyes:
 

JayKidd

Grammatically Challenged
Silver Member
Have you tried your experiment at different distances? Is the result exactly the same?

For me, the result is as expected, when the distance to the mirror is less than 6 inches, the vision are always left eye dominant(since my left eye is near sighted) and beyond that distance, the "alignment" switched to right eye. To my surprise, there was no middle ground, sort of a merged stereo-vision center in between. As I increase the distance to several feet, the center kind of back to the middle, or the difference was hard to tell.
 

Mirza

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Vision problem or discovery?

Ok guys, so I noticed on videos of me playing that sometimes my cue is under the center of my chin and sometimes is under a point between my nose and my left eye..

So I remembered this thread and doing this test so I decided to do it again but with a little change - to approach the line, or part of the card that is pointing at me that I'm looking to align with its reflection, from the left and stop immediately as it aligns and also to approach it from the right and do the same, stop immediately as it aligns.

And I got the same results as seen in my video, when I approached the line from the left - vision center was center of my nose, when I approached the line from the right - vision center was a point between my left eye and nose.

Any oppionions about this? Anyone else discovered it? What does it mean for our game?

Here are also my pictures from two different approaches, coming from left and right.
 

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bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Where is your head when you approach from behind the line?
Are you left eye dominant?
My best guess is your left eye wants to be the boss slightly
So when you come from the right your left and right eye are equal
When You come from the right your left eye wants to be a little dominant
Also I can’t tell from you pics but is your nose pointed straight along the shot line
Or is your nose pointed off the line so that one eye is closer to the object ball giving you an “ angled” view?
Jmho
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Ok guys, so I noticed on videos of me playing that sometimes my cue is under the center of my chin and sometimes is under a point between my nose and my left eye..

So I remembered this thread and doing this test so I decided to do it again but with a little change - to approach the line, or part of the card that is pointing at me that I'm looking to align with its reflection, from the left and stop immediately as it aligns and also to approach it from the right and do the same, stop immediately as it aligns.

And I got the same results as seen in my video, when I approached the line from the left - vision center was center of my nose, when I approached the line from the right - vision center was a point between my left eye and nose.

Any oppionions about this? Anyone else discovered it? What does it mean for our game?

Here are also my pictures from two different approaches, coming from left and right.
I'm not sure this technique gives you the best information for your pool-playing "vision center." Try instead the technique at the 10:51 point in the "Top 10 Pool and Billiard Myths Busted and Debunked" video.

That should give you more accurate and consistent results. Let us know what you find.

Regards,
Dave
 

Mirza

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Where is your head when you approach from behind the line?
Are you left eye dominant?
My best guess is your left eye wants to be the boss slightly
So when you come from the right your left and right eye are equal
When You come from the right your left eye wants to be a little dominant
Also I can’t tell from you pics but is your nose pointed straight along the shot line
Or is your nose pointed off the line so that one eye is closer to the object ball giving you an “ angled” view?
Jmho

My head is always square to the mirror, as is my body, and then I lean to my left if I approach the line from the right, and vice versa.

I have no idea what eye is dominant, most standard tests give me right eye dominant, this test only gives me left eye dominant: https://youtu.be/qsw8ZhvYJBE?t=286

If it looks I'm angled that is because maybe I angled my phone a little when taking the picture.
 

Mirza

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I hope someone like Geno will chime in to help us a bit with this subject.
 

Mirza

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I forgot to write that I also had big problems while trying to aligne the edge of the taped card to its reflection, I start seeing to edges/lines of the card thats perpendicular to the mirror, anyone else had this problem with this experiment?
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Question: doesn't all this VC stuff depend on a 100% consistent stance/alignment position? I mean, does anybody stand to the shot EXACTLY the same every time? I'm right-eye dom. and all i do is try to position my right eye over my shot line, drop down and shoot. I've never done that straight-in test. I'll try it but i don't see any big surprises coming.
 

Hits 'em Hard

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Question: doesn't all this VC stuff depend on a 100% consistent stance/alignment position? I mean, does anybody stand to the shot EXACTLY the same every time? I'm right-eye dom. and all i do is try to position my right eye over my shot line, drop down and shoot. I've never done that straight-in test. I'll try it but i don't see any big surprises coming.

Take some time to check your cues alignment. You may have your vision centered, it the cue could be shifted. Do you feel you can get more side spin one way or the other? One can be aligned center ball, but still be shifted through the axis of the ball. Center ball and center tip is aligned, most people do not align for center tip, just center ball.
 

genomachino

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This is so mixed up. First of all the pointing and circle eye dominance tests flat out don't work. I'm sorry. Yes they do. 50% of the time. So you have a 50% chance of being right when you do this test. I got sick and tired of wasting my time when I first started teaching Perfect Aim by identifying the wrong eye as dominant. The way I do it now and it is almost fool proof is I show a player how to make the right eye dominant in the preshot and then the left. Once they understand this then I have them get down on the shot and do the same thing. They will usually be able to tell me which eye is dominant because it looks better than the other way. As far as this center ball stuff goes, if you are left eye dominant / right handed you usually have trouble being to the left of center on the cue ball naturally. I help a player fix this once they get the dominant eye in the most dominant position. If you are opposite eye dominant you need help with the eyes. If your same eye dominant you need help with the eyes. It's just easier. Knowing which eye is dominant does you absolutely no good if you don't know what to do with it. This is what I teach. Dr Dave really did myself and pool players an injustice by trying to explain Perfect aim without having a clue how it actually works. GGRRRRR. Once a player knows how this really works they know beyond a shadow of a doubt that this is the only wat it really is. it's just the way the eyes work. I didn't create something because I thought this is how it is and I didn't copy something I read. I did the roadwork around the country doing 15 to 25 lessons a week learning and learning and learning as I went. The more I taught the more I learned. Today when a player does the Perfect Aim lesson I am sharing 10 years of sweat and blood to figure this out for everyone. Many teachers try to discredit what I teach or should I say they did try but the proof is just too strong. I'm heading to Beloit to the HOF, Hall of Fame, and I will probably be stuck there for a week before I get out of town. All I have to do is a few lessons and the rest is history. I get about 5 to 10 players line up the next day or so because of what the ones that did the lessons told them. All I got to say is ,,,,If they only knew....???????
 

genomachino

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This picture in the mirror does nothing to help. You might be and you might not be. That's what it tells you.
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Dr Dave really did myself and pool players an injustice by trying to explain Perfect aim without having a clue how it actually works.
Gene,

The only information I have on my site concerning your system is here:

Perfect Aiming Sighting System

It mostly includes direct quotes from you, along with links to the posts from where they came.

It also includes an excerpt from a review of your DVD that Patrick Johnson posted. I have also watched your DVD, and I think Pat's description summarizes the main points of your DVD very well.

As I have always offered, if you want to provide a better description that accurately and concisely describes the gist of your system (and why PJ's description is incorrect), I would be happy to add it to the page.

Describing and posting your information in no way diminishes the value you offer to potential future students. If anything, the more people know about your approach, the more they might be willing to visit you for individualized help. Proper visual alignment is difficult to learn from a book or video, and it is much easier with the help of an instructor like you who has good understanding and a good eye to spot issues.

Also, if you have a website, Facebook page, or contact info you would like me to include on the page so people will know how to contact you for lessons and know where to purchase your DVD, please let me know and I'll add it.

Regards,
Dave
 
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dreamingsnooker

New member
I'm going to give you all a detailed guide on how you can easily find your vision center without being near a pool table. It's worked great for me, and so I can only assume it would work for others as well. So please, try it for yourselves if you are struggling in this area and let me know if you have any questions.

Material List:
  1. Strip of Paper - 4-5" (L) x 1/2" (W)
  2. Double Sided Tape (regular tape can be substituted)
  3. Bathroom Mirror


Set Up:
  1. Make an approximate 1/4" fold on either end of the paper, so that it looks like a "J" or "L"
  2. Stick a small piece of tape on the mirror, at around chin level.
  3. Stick the "hook" of the paper on the tape so the paper is sticking towards you.
  4. The paper facing you should be vertical.

All that's left to do is stand directly in line with the paper, and look up slightly at your eyes. Where ever the paper is lined up is your vision center. For me, it lines up around the inside corner of my left eye. I always knew I was left eye dominant, but this test has shown me that I don't need to have the cue directly under my left eye as I previously thought.

Feedback on this guide would be appreciated. I do not consider myself to be a guru on this subject.

Edit: It's probably best to use a thicker stock of paper. Something like a playing card or index card would be ideal.
thank you very much for this post, much appreciated
i have been having this vision problem for years now and cant fix it
i am confused how to build this ! can you share a picture please!
 
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