Hal Houle

[dr_dave]

let's get to the heart of the matter ... finally!

Patrick,

Excellent question and diagram! Hopefully, after the hundreds of postings (and rantings), we can now get to the heart of the matter.

Stan, thank you very much for deciding to participate.

Regards,
Dave

Stan, I've removed all but the first and last balls for clarity, so I could ask a question.

CueTable Help

The cue ball has the same center-to-edge alignment with the 1 ball and with the 6 ball, but the aim line to make both shots is clearly different (as shown by the two black arrows going from the cue ball through the ghost balls). Is the difference in aim from the 1 ball to the 6 ball accomplished by a strict adjustment "formula" given by the system, or is it an adjustment that must be learned over time with practice and experience (presumably aided by the system)?

pj
chgo

 

[stan shuffett]

Patrick, Go ahead! Possibly, I can answer a question.

Thanks for the welcome, Dr. Dave.

Stan

 

[cigjonser]

Post removed. If the author of the Pro-One system is going to answer questions I'm not going to clutter things up with my ramblings.

 

[stan shuffett]

Patrick, Landon's waiting for a 14.1 to 125 and a race to 11 in 10-ball.

I am anticipating your question. So here goes.

In phase 1--The first ball. Outside pivot. Body to left of CTE line or general shot line,tilt head to the right to see CTE, then a proper pivot to center CB and shoot to pocket the ball as a near straight-in.

In Phase 1--The second ball. Outside pivot makes the ball cross corner. Inside pivot creates a possible 3 in the side bank. Pivot additionally for about a mm of left spin to help the 3 railer.

In PRO ONE or level 3 of the system....the second ball cuts in very easily......In PRO ONE you've come full circle. Adjustments are made. Very specific adjustments.

 

[av84fun]

Stan, I've removed all but the first and last balls for clarity, so I could ask a question.

CueTable Help

The cue ball has the same center-to-edge alignment with the 1 ball and with the 6 ball, but the aim line to make both shots is clearly different (as shown by the two black arrows going from the cue ball through the ghost balls). Is the difference in aim from the 1 ball to the 6 ball accomplished by a strict adjustment "formula" given by the system, or is it an adjustment that must be learned over time with practice and experience (presumably aided by the system)?

pj
chgo

I would not presume to answer a question for Stan but I will comment on your premise.

The emphasised text above poses an incorrect premise. The CTE lines in the depicted shots are entirely different.

The CTE line for these shots extends from the center of the CB to the LEFT edge of the OB.

If you draw lines as described above, you will see that they point in two different directions which is why both shots go.

Jim

 

[SpiderWebComm]

i've honestly never seen a good diagram with this system. I wish I had a good program so I could make one. Maybe I can do it in PhotoShop?

What Stan said about positioning your body is mega, mega crucial. You do not step into the shot traditionally. I failed to mention this in previous posts.

If you recall, I mentioned perception is the reason many miss early on. When one first starts the system, you almost have to cock/tilt your head to ensure you're seeing that line properly.

If you are right-eye dominant, that eye has a different perspective to where that line is compared to the left eye.

I know many of you want me to chime in, but I really don't know the answers. I just "do" and the ball just "goes." That's all I know. If there are slight adjustments, I believe this system puts you as close to perfect, repeatedly, than any other way to aim (RonV's - same way).

I hope you guys figure it out, I really do. In the meantime, I'll try to make a good diagram. The pivot isn't being diagrammed properly, for sure. Not once.

Dave

P.S. Hal told me nearly 6 months ago that you must proof this in 3D.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I would not presume to answer a question for Stan but I will comment on your premise.

The emphasised text above poses an incorrect premise. The CTE lines in the depicted shots are entirely different.

The CTE line for these shots extends from the center of the CB to the LEFT edge of the OB.

If you draw lines as described above, you will see that they point in two different directions which is why both shots go.

Jim

I have no idea what you're trying to say.

I think the diagram and the question is clear. Dave seems to think it's clear. If Stan doesn't think so he can say that. How about we just let him answer?

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Dave, Go ahead! Possibly, I can answer a question.

Thanks for the welcome,

Stan

Stan, I think Dave is referring to the question I asked. In case it isn't clear, here's a little more detail:

The diagram assumes the left edges of the two object balls (1 ball and 6 ball) are both in line with the CB's center. Cue ball "A" and cue ball "B" are ghost balls set up to show the necessary aim to make both shots into the corner pocket. The black arrows from the unmarked cue ball pass through the ghost cue balls to show the difference in the aim necessary to make both balls.

The point of the diagram is to show that, even with the same center-to-edge alignment, two object balls at different distances must be aimed differently to be pocketed. The question is how (in general terms) does the system make the adjustment - by "rote system formula" or by "learned instinct" (or by a combination of the two)?

Hope I didn't make that less clear!

Good luck against that little giant killer!

pj
chgo

 

[av84fun]

i've honestly never seen a good diagram with this system. I wish I had a good program so I could make one. Maybe I can do it in PhotoShop?

What Stan said about positioning your body is mega, mega crucial. You do not step into the shot traditionally. I failed to mention this in previous posts.If you recall, I mentioned perception is the reason many miss early on. When one first starts the system, you almost have to cock/tilt your head to ensure you're seeing that line properly.

If you are right-eye dominant, that eye has a different perspective to where that line is compared to the left eye.

I know many of you want me to chime in, but I really don't know the answers. I just "do" and the ball just "goes." That's all I know. If there are slight adjustments, I believe this system puts you as close to perfect, repeatedly, than any other way to aim (RonV's - same way).

I hope you guys figure it out, I really do. In the meantime, I'll try to make a good diagram. The pivot isn't being diagrammed properly, for sure. Not once.

Dave

P.S. Hal told me nearly 6 months ago that you must proof this in 3D.

Me too..or maybe I did in a post or a PM...but to reiterate, when I first SAW Stan shoot during my BCA Instructor training with him...he literally STALKED into the shot....like he was sneaking up on it.

At first, I just thought it was a stylistic thing. But it is not. There are several reasons for that sort of body position...including that it is easier/better to acquire the CTE line with a low head position...just like it is better to use a rifle sight from as level a plane as possible.

That is ONE important reason why it is NOT...repeat NOT easy to describe this system textually. It is FAR, FAR better to be SHOWN the system and to have your adaptation to it critiqued by a competent teacher.

Another case in point is the point at which, in Level 1, a left to right pivot doesn't work. So, you do a right to left pivot...BUT...there is a certain body/head move that you MUST do that I have no even going to begin to try to describe...but which I could demonstrate in 5 seconds.

When you graduate to Pro One (I suppose because I have not done so myself) it is apparently true that you learn to just fall onto the shot correctly like you learn to hit keyboard or piano keys correctly.

Regards,
Jim

 

[stan shuffett]

Patrick, The eyes see CTE. The head makes an adjustment to the right on the way down for the 2nd ball. The eyes see the left edge of the CB. The cue is pivoted to the exact center of the CB. The ball goes. Phase 1 and 2 are necessary training for level 3 or PRO ONE.

I trained a student today in PRO ONE. He learned all 3 phases in 5 hours. This particular student can play immediately in PRO ONE with regular brief reviews of Phase 1 and 2 over the next few weeks.
To all the good folks at AZ.... I appreciate your support.
Stan

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Patrick, The eyes see CTE. The head makes an adjustment to the right on the way down for the 2nd ball. The eyes see the left edge of the CB. The cue is pivoted to the exact center of the CB. The ball goes. Phase 1 and 2 are necessary training for level 3 or PRO ONE.

AZ has been good to me that I wanted to at least share some aspects of the system.

I trained a student today in PRO ONE. He learned all 3 phases in 5 hours. This particular student can play immediately in PRO ONE with regular brief reviews of Phase 1 and 2 over the next few weeks.
Thanks again to all the good folks at AZ. I appreciate your support.
Stan

Phase 3 is the way I'll play pool for the rest of my life. If someone likes ghostball, I wish them the best.... seriously. Thanks, Stan.

 

[stan shuffett]

Dave, you're quite welcome.
Stan

 

[av84fun]

I have no idea what you're trying to say.

I think the diagram and the question is clear. Dave seems to think it's clear. If Stan doesn't think so he can say that. How about we just let him answer?

pj
chgo

You WOULD have an idea of what I am trying to say if you would read my posts more carefully and without the cement brain you typically manifest when dialoging with me.

And if you had read my post correctly (fat chance) you would note that I REFRAINED from answering you question.

What I did was to point out the fallacy in the question which I will do AGAIN in terms that a 4th grader will easily grasp.

You posed the following comment..

The cue ball has the same center-to-edge alignment with the 1 ball and with the 6 ball.

That is INCORRECT and demonstrates that in spite of CLEAR descriptions you STILL don't even understand the most basic rudiment of the system.

The "center to edge line" is a specific term and here is its definition.

CTE Line

A line running from the center of the CB to the OUTSIDE EDGE of the object ball.

In your graph, your line runs from the center of the CG to the left or outside edge of the OB and is therefore correct.

But THAT LINE extends to the RIGHT...INSIDE edge of the 6 ball and therefore is NOT on the CTE Line as correctly defined.

Therefore, to pocket the 6 Ball a NEW line must extend from the center of the CB to the LEFT edge of the OB. NONE of your lines do so.

And by the way, your diagram is otherwise incorrect because your ghost ball contact positions show the OB tracking along the line of centers which, as I have tried repeatedly to instruct you...is WRONG on center ball hits due to CIT.

Stan will answer your QUESTION of he chooses but as I have CLEARLY stated above, your emphasized statement above is wrong because it does not conform to the definition of "center to edge" because you are referring to the WRONG EDGES.

GET IT?

Dave will.

Jim

PS: Your question is completely disingenuous because you have already declined to discuss this subject with an EXPERT on the basis that you don't believe in systems...unless you assert that Dave is lying about that.

Is Dave a liar Patrick?

If not, then all you are doing is what Patrick does...which is to present ENDLESS, often nonsensical commentary for the mere purpose of blowing smoke on any thesis with which you do not agree.

 

[av84fun]

Phase 3 is the way I'll play pool for the rest of my life. If someone likes ghostball, I wish them the best.... seriously. Thanks, Stan.

But WHY Dave??? It can't possibly work!

wink, wink.

(-:

Jim

 

[stan shuffett]

Yes, the diagram shows the CTE line incorrectly postioned for the 2nd ball. It should cross the left edge. My prior description of the shot for the 2nd ball does not change. WHen I referred to the diagram I looked at ball positioning and did not focus on line placement.

 

[mbvl]

You WOULD have an idea of what I am trying to say if you would read my posts more carefully and without the cement brain you typically manifest when dialoging with me.

And if you had read my post correctly (fat chance) you would note that I REFRAINED from answering you question.

What I did was to point out the fallacy in the question which I will do AGAIN in terms that a 4th grader will easily grasp.

You posed the following comment..

The cue ball has the same center-to-edge alignment with the 1 ball and with the 6 ball.

That is INCORRECT and demonstrates that in spite of CLEAR descriptions you STILL don't even understand the most basic rudiment of the system.

The "center to edge line" is a specific term and here is its definition.

CTE Line

A line running from the center of the CB to the OUTSIDE EDGE of the object ball.

In your graph, your line runs from the center of the CG to the left or outside edge of the OB and is therefore correct.

But THAT LINE extends to the RIGHT...INSIDE edge of the 6 ball and therefore is NOT on the CTE Line as correctly defined.

Therefore, to pocket the 6 Ball a NEW line must extend from the center of the CB to the LEFT edge of the OB. NONE of your lines do so.

And by the way, your diagram is otherwise incorrect because your ghost ball contact positions show the OB tracking along the line of centers which, as I have tried repeatedly to instruct you...is WRONG on center ball hits due to CIT.

Stan will answer your QUESTION of he chooses but as I have CLEARLY stated above, your emphasized statement above is wrong because it does not conform to the definition of "center to edge" because you are referring to the WRONG EDGES.

GET IT?

Dave will.

Jim

PS: Your question is completely disingenuous because you have already declined to discuss this subject with an EXPERT on the basis that you don't believe in systems...unless you assert that Dave is lying about that.

Is Dave a liar Patrick?

If not, then all you are doing is what Patrick does...which is to present ENDLESS, often nonsensical commentary for the mere purpose of blowing smoke on any thesis with which you do not agree.

As usual you are completely wrong. The CTE line does not appear at all in Patrick's diagram. The two lines drawn are the lines of aim required to make the two balls. If you were to draw the CTE lines, you would see that they coincide.

Mark

 

[Colin Colenso]

Colin, first, Dave and I are not "friends". I've never met him. And in the past, we have had some frank differences of opinion. But, I RESPECT him and have SEEN him on video making shots and banks from all over the place and I believe he is a no nonsense guy who would be the FIRST to debunk fairly tale methods.

As for your diagram, you need to define what you mean by "bridge position" in reference to the red dot. The bridge hand spans several inches so what PART of the bridge does the red dot represent?

In fact, when the pivot is completed, it APPEARS to me that the shaft is slightly INSIDE the CTE line on cuts to the left and slightly OUTSIDE the line on cuts to the right, so if your red dot is supposed to represent the shaft, you have it on the wrong side of the CTE line.

As for overhead video and manufacturing grid lines and posting that video to the internet I have NO CLUE how do to that...and am not interested in getting a clue.

All I can say is that, following the specific procedures I have posted...which involve the consistent placement of the bridge hand relative to the CTE line, the vast majority of shots go...DEAD CENTER and certainly the 20-40 degree cuts that you describe.

Regards,

Jim

Jim,
I meant both you and Dave are MY friends. Don't assume everything is about 2 camps of Us v Them

In my diagram, bridge position is the fulcrum position of the cue. The center of the cue above the effective V of the bridge, not necessarily where the bottom of the V in your hand is positioned, which as you say may be slightly offset.

The challenge is open to anyone.

Point is, I think most have accepted that there needs to be different offsets from the CTE line for different angle cuts, even when the CB and OB are at the same distances apart, though you disagree?

Please go try the two shots I diagramed, marking the position of the balls. Then line up to both shots and mark a specific position of your bridge hand. Lets say the point directly under the tip of the thumb.

Then look at the CTE line precisely and see at what distance it passes those bridge reference points.

Colin

 

[Colin Colenso]

But WHY Dave??? It can't possibly work!

wink, wink.

(-:

Jim

I can't recall anyone saying that Dave's method can't work. It obviously works very well.

The question is exactly how it works, and even Dave isn't sure about that.

If a player tells me they aim the cue through CB center to OB contact point every shot, then I would say that it can't work that way. I would say that they reference the contact point and have an intuitive adjustment in their aim or stroke to make their reference system work. In fact, many of the best potters in the world claim to use contact point as their aim, so it also works. Just not the way they claim.

All we're trying to clarify is HOW CTE methods work, and to describe them in a language and via geometry that is the usual way of presenting aiming systems, so others can learn to use them effectively and without confusion.

I think that is advancing the cause of CTE systems. If that requires critiquing some explanations by some CTE system proponents then so be it. That is done, not with the intent to debunk the systems, but to improve the understanding of the systems.

Colin

 

[CueAndMe]

Hello Stan. Thanks for subjecting yourself to this microsurgery.
If you could, please take a look at the 2 pages of the cuetable layouts below:

The first page shows 4 object balls positioned so that their outside edges all connect via the same line to the cueball center. It also shows where the ghost ball would be to pocket all shots in the upper left corner pocket. Please excuse the cuetable anomalies. Sometimes when you save a layout, the circles on the lines move slightly.

The second page shows the same solidified system of balls and lines, but tilted slightly counterclockwise. The angles that the object balls release off of the blue center-to-edge line are the same as on page one. In this case, of course, the balls don't go into the upper left corner pocket. So whatever bridge placement and pivot was used to sink the balls on page one, couldn't be used to sink the balls into the same pocket on page two.

You mentioned that adjustments are necessary in the Pro One system. Can you describe the sort of adjustments you would make to pocket all 8 shots?
Thanks for taking the time.

CueTable Help

 

[av84fun]

As usual you are completely wrong. The CTE line does not appear at all in Patrick's diagram. The two lines drawn are the lines of aim required to make the two balls. If you were to draw the CTE lines, you would see that they coincide.

Mark

I don't know who rattled your cage but you need to brush up on your reading skills.

This is what PATRICK posted...

The cue ball has the same center-to-edge alignment with the 1 ball and with the 6 ball.

It FLAT DOES NOT and Stan POSTED that it DOES NOT...Is he usually wrong too in your opinion?


LOL