Hal Houle

[av84fun]

Jim, I understand the system. I like the system. I learned the system from Hal face to face. Forget about throw and sqwerve for a moment. I know they are relevant to all systems, but please put them aside for this discussion. They don't have to be taken into consideration here.

Shuffet's technique, if for different shot angles and different CB-to-OB distances, changes the distance from center CB to the side that you place the stick before pivoting, or if it changes the orientation of the stick before pivoting may work without other adjustment. Hal's requires adjustment whether it's subconscious or conscious.

With respect, I don't agree. In giving the system the "acid test" I place the CB on the foot spot and began to shoot balls from slightly off the rail at the first diamond beyond the side pockets...moving the OB in 1 ball width increments for each shot.

I approached the shots EXACTLY as taught in every instance...no adjustments. I did use sort of a Allen Hopkins mini stroke...with a slow to medium pace so as to reduce stroking errors as much as possible and found that the only times I missed was when I DID make adjustments because (mostly) certain shots looked too thick...but I would over cut them.

IMHO, those who dismiss the method as voodoo (many of whom do not even understand the system or are blending it with some other system) and who say the system is "inconsistent" are actually committing stroke errors and miss because of that.

I certainly make errors when shooting with a "normal stroke" as has every pool player who has ever lived.

I guess this debate will rage until the end of the world unless someone uses a stroke machine to test it out.

Finally, it is true that Stan Shuffett has made some modifications to the system that he now calls Pro One and all of my comments are related to THAT system and no other system so the fact that you learned what Hal was teaching at the time you trained with him (which may or may not be the same system...exactly...that he teaches now) is beside the point.

Regards,

Jim

Regards,
Jim

 

[dr_dave]

fractional ball aiming

Dave...your above link points here in reference to Hal's center to edge system....http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#fractional

But that is a post from some anonymous poster and it IS NOT the center to edge system but rather one of his older FRACTIONAL sytems.

Center to Edge IS NOT A FRACTIONAL SYSTEM....PERIOD.

After reading all of the descriptions of SAM and Hal's system, they sure sound like they are based on fractional-ball aiming to me. Maybe I don't totally understand how the cue shifting and pivoting works, but isn't the system still based on fractional ball aiming (e.g., center to edge, center to 1/4, etc.)? I guess I need to look at Colin's thread again to see if this made clear there.

Furthermore, you say in your article that you don't use any aiming method but shoot by "feel" which...with GREAT respect...is a total myth.

I think you have misquoted me in your paraphrase. Here is the direct quote:

I personally use a combination of straight intuition (just "seeing the angle"), ghost ball aiming (see NV 3.1, NV 3.2), and contact point visualization (see NV B.3). Bottom line: I just visualize the aim without using any kind of fractional on fixed-reference compensation system.

Now, I do adjust my aim "by feel" for squirt, swerve, and throw based on knowledge of all of the factors described here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#compensation​

Regards,
Dave

 

[av84fun]

YOU NAILED IT! Personally, I ADMIRE your directness because I KNOW it comes from a good place. NO ONE should take offense.

But I too will exit these threads now aloong with you because, as usual, given all the misunderstandings and half truths, they end up being a Journey to the Center of the Earth!

(-:

Jim

The only guy on that list who had the capability to admit anything was Efren and he sent out a lemon for the readers. Dr. Dave, if you believe what he was quoted as saying, you have a mouth full of Sour Patch Kids... no offense, brother I'm here trying to shed some light into a dark, dark place.

I'll leave this thread with this thought. Watch this (or any) video of Bustamante and explain why he pivots left-right.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBez5X7HpXI

19:50 3 Ball: center-to-left-edge bank, outside pivoting to CB center (center-hole-joel)

20:50 7 Ball: center-to-left edge, outside pivot to CB center (center-hole-joel). Next 8-Ball: Busty pivots from the LEFT side of the CB, even though it's a bottom right shot.

24:05 5 Ball. if you can't see it here, you never will ladies. Perfect perspective. pay very close attention to where the tip of his cue STARTS and where it ends up before he pulls the trigger.

As a matter of fact, watch everything he shoots--- he does the same thing on every single shot (with VERY few exceptions). This man is "locked" to the center-to-edge line on everything --- his tip gives it away like a joke.

You can talk about what "pros" do and then you can talk about what top Filipinos pros who spot the quoted pros the 7 ball do.

I'm not downing anyone's info or what they teach or what they post. You have SUPER good info posted. I'm trying to show you in a sincere way that doesn't hurt your Ph.D. ego that your aiming information is very "incomplete" and not used at the highest level of the game.

I'll stick my head out and say that unlike a few others who might be shy. Invest some moolah and take a university sabbatical to Manila and re-learn what you think you know. There's a WHOOOOLE 'nother world out there brother

Dave

 

[BRKNRUN]

Where is that information?

Dead in a box I suppose....

Hal mentioned it to me when I talked to him. I have read others that have said the same thing.

Hal actually told me that He and Ralph developed the system while they were on the road, but gave much credit to Ralph.

I wouldn't think he would have any reason to lie about it since he is not charging any money for the information, but I suppose he could be.

On a side note...I have read Johnny Archer denying any relation to the aiming system he uses being any form of a HH system. I wouldn't think he would have any reason to lie about it...but I suppose he could be.

I suspect that even if they don't give specific credit to the systems or Hal....many pros probably know about the systems..and may have even experimented with them.

I guess since you are destined to win the US open 14:1 championship in the near future...You would be able to say that the current 14:1 champion has at least experimented with at least 1 of his systems.....:wink:

 

[dr_dave]

Francisco's cue lift during final stroke

The only guy on that list who had the capability to admit anything was Efren and he sent out a lemon for the readers. Dr. Dave, if you believe what he was quoted as saying, you have a mouth full of Sour Patch Kids... no offense, brother I'm here trying to shed some light into a dark, dark place.

I didn't write that article, and I didn't say I believe everything in it. I just thought it was interesting, and I thought people would want to see it. The link is actually to Bob Jewett's website ... but he didn't write the article either. The article was written by Shari Stauch.

I'll leave this thread with this thought. Watch this (or any) video of Bustamante and explain why he pivots left-right.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBez5X7HpXI

19:50 3 Ball: center-to-left-edge bank, outside pivoting to CB center (center-hole-joel)

20:50 7 Ball: center-to-left edge, outside pivot to CB center (center-hole-joel). Next 8-Ball: Busty pivots from the LEFT side of the CB, even though it's a bottom right shot.

24:05 5 Ball. if you can't see it here, you never will ladies. Perfect perspective. pay very close attention to where the tip of his cue STARTS and where it ends up before he pulls the trigger.

As a matter of fact, watch everything he shoots--- he does the same thing on every single shot (with VERY few exceptions). This man is "locked" to the center-to-edge line on everything --- his tip gives it away like a joke.

What I saw is: during his practice strokes, he is aiming at the bottom of the ball, or even below the bottom of the ball, and then on his final stroke he somehow brings the tip up to the desired contact point on the cue ball. I certainly would not want to try this. He does it well, but I seriously doubt I could. I think the camera angle makes it look like he is pivoting the cue during the final stroke, but I think this is a perspective thing ... the cue is coming up and the camera angle makes it look like the cue is also pivoting, but I don't think it is (but I'm not sure). I always thought he aimed low so he could more easily align his cue with the centerline of the cue ball, by sighting over the top of the tip to the resting point of the ball on the cloth, but that's just a guess.

You can talk about what "pros" do and then you can talk about what top Filipinos pros who spot the quoted pros the 7 ball do.

I'm not downing anyone's info or what they teach or what they post. You have SUPER good info posted. I'm trying to show you in a sincere way that doesn't hurt your Ph.D. ego that your aiming information is very "incomplete" and not used at the highest level of the game.

I'll stick my head out and say that unlike a few others who might be shy. Invest some moolah and take a university sabbatical to Manila and re-learn what you think you know. There's a WHOOOOLE 'nother world out there brother

I would love to do a sabbatical in Manila studying the world's greatest pool players, but I don't think I can sell that one to my boss. If anybody out there would like to fund such a trip, let me know and maybe I can convince my boss the trip has scientific merit.

Regards,
Dave

 

[JoeyA]

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one my friend. There is nothing wrong in a free market society for people to advertise and market their products/services on public forums.

There are those of us who are willing to share some of what we know on these forums and that is fine.

There are others who MAKE A LIVING from providing their instructional services who would be pure fools to just give it away...just like my doctor/lawyer analogy.

Stan Shuffett in particular, has made relatively few posts in total and fewer still for the purpose of acquiring students. I have probably recommended him more often in the past month than he has EVER recommended himself.

Personally, I am very glad that instructors identify themselves on the forums. Otherwise, I would not have known about Scott Lee who I have learned a great deal from.

And while I have met Stan on a few occasions in the past, until fairly recently, I had no idea he is a BCA instructor. I thougt he was "just" Landon's Dad!

I think it is unrealistic to place a duty on professional instructors to share any substantial amount of their knowledge for free on the forums. We should not impose upon people a duty to put themselves out of business by their own generosity.

Doing so would be JUST LIKE cuemakers offering to build cues for the cost of the materials or, in the case of professional service providers, having CPAs offer to provide crucial tax advice for free.

In addition, there are very few active pros who post here and virtually none that have gotten into any lengthly detail about their techniques.


And yet the members of this and other forums directly provide income to those pros in the form of buying tickets to the events...playing in the opens that we know we are only "donating to" and being a part of the TV audience without which there would be even LESS prize money for them.

So if any group OWES anything to the members here, it is the pros and not the instructors who don't profit a dime except from members, like me, who become their students.

We have tended to agree on most things and I RESPECT everything you post. But we do have an honest difference of opinion on this matter.

Regards,
Jim

You had to go and post that perspective about the pros, didn't ya? That's two things in one day that we don't agree on. Things are really heading downhill between you and I.

As you mentioned, the pros don't get on this forum hawking their products and services, especially not on a regular basis. The pros don't owe the members of this forum anything.

I'm a business man first and a philanthopist second. :smile: I enjoy the process of obtaining & providing a needed product, adding value to it and then selling it for a profit. I just feel like if this forum is going to be your hunting grounds, you ought to have to pay to hunt.

Payment can be made in trade or cash.

The professional pool players can't get enough money together to play in a pool tournament and you want them to pay? BESIDES, they aren't hunting for customers in this forum; the instructors are.

(Every once in a while, we'll get some joker to come on the forum and ask for some gambling action. Looking for some gambling action on this forum is like looking in the desert for some ice cubes.)

FTR, I don't see Stan Shuffett getting on this forum and regularly soliciting customers.

Stan is highly respected for his honesty, the value that he brings to his pool clinics, how he conducts himself in private and public as well as the manner in which he has brought his son along in this sport. That's why professionals and amateurs alike seek him out. Stan Shuffett is a professional and a fair dinkum kind of guy but most importantly as far as pool is concerned he is a talented teacher.

Now go tell the next pro you see to send us free tickets to the U.S. Open 9 Ball Championship and to make sure they are good seats.

JoeyA

 

[softshot]

You can't find the contact point, although you can estimate where it is pretty closely. It's about the size of a sharpened pencil tip (let's just say it's really small). You can find the visual edge of the OB. You don't find a line from the CB to the contact point-- you'd undercut every shot. The problem with that method is you're dealing with depth perception since the OB is round. What makes Hal's system "strong" is that it removes depth perception from aiming--- and eliminates the need to "see" a contact point.

by that rational you can run a table perfectly while wearing a patch over one eye..
can you? I can't..

depth perception is critical to this game. I'd like to see a list of the best one eyed players.. I doubt very much that there are any..

and speaking of contact points..you are correct it is very tiny if one were playing with 2.25" pockets, but luckily the pockets are twice that size maybe more. so the number of effective contact points creates a line along the equator of the OB that can be as large as a half an inch for some shots. but IME is usually 1/8 to 1/4" long.

Aiming is easy.. its the execution that takes work.

 

[JoeyInCali]

by that rational you can run a table perfectly while wearing a patch over one eye..
can you? I can't..

depth perception is critical to this game. I'd like to see a list of the best one eyed players.. I doubt very much that there are any..

and speaking of contact points..you are correct it is very tiny if one were playing with 2.25" pockets, but luckily the pockets are twice that size maybe more. so the number of effective contact points creates a line along the equator of the OB that can be as large as a half an inch for some shots. but IME is usually 1/8 to 1/4" long.

Aiming is easy.. its the execution that takes work.

What if you imagine balls as discs 1 1/8th thick and 2 1/4 round?

 

[SpiderWebComm]

What I saw is: during his practice strokes, he is aiming at the bottom of the ball, or even below the bottom of the ball, and then on his final stroke he somehow brings the tip up to the desired contact point on the cue ball. I certainly would not want to try this. He does it well, but I seriously doubt I could. I think the camera angle makes it look like he is pivoting the cue during the final stroke, but I think this is a perspective thing ... the cue is coming up and the camera angle makes it look like the cue is also pivoting, but I don't think it is (but I'm not sure). I always thought he aimed low so he could more easily align his cue with the centerline of the cue ball, by sighting over the top of the tip to the resting point of the ball on the cloth, but that's just a guess.

I would love to do a sabbatical in Manila studying the world's greatest pool players, but I don't think I can sell that one to my boss. If anybody out there would like to fund such a trip, let me know and maybe I can convince my boss the trip has scientific merit.

Regards,
Dave

While you're saying you guess and that you're not sure... I'm telling you 'I know.'

 

[BRKNRUN]

by that rational you can run a table perfectly while wearing a patch over one eye..
can you? I can't..

depth perception is critical to this game. I'd like to see a list of the best one eyed players.. I doubt very much that there are any..
and speaking of contact points..you are correct it is very tiny if one were playing with 2.25" pockets, but luckily the pockets are twice that size maybe more. so the number of effective contact points creates a line along the equator of the OB that can be as large as a half an inch for some shots. but IME is usually 1/8 to 1/4" long.

Aiming is easy.. its the execution that takes work.

I thought Ike Runnels had a glass eye???

I know of a local player that does not play anymore (got distracted by poker) but when he was at his peak played pro caliber pool...Beat Buddy Hall for the finals in a LA Tournament back in the 90s....He had an eye ailment of some kind. He would close one eye before every shot.

 

[JoeyInCali]

I thought Ike Runnels had a glass eye???

I know of a local player that does not play anymore (got distracted by poker) but when he was at his peak played pro caliber pool...Beat Buddy Hall for the finals in a LA Tournament back in the 90s....He had an eye ailment of some kind. He would close one eye before every shot.

Sergio ???

 

[eze]

What is a 1/2 ball hit to you - center of the CB to the left or right outer edge of the OB resulting in a asprrox 30 degree angle cut?

I think so ,am i wrong?

 

[miha]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2908763166792036851&hl=en

This thread made me focus on Efren's preshot rutine a bit more and a pivoting action can definitely be seen on the clip.

He missed, too!

 

[av84fun]

You Misunderstood

You had to go and post that perspective about the pros, didn't ya? That's two things in one day that we don't agree on. Things are really heading downhill between you and I.

As you mentioned, the pros don't get on this forum hawking their products and services, especially not on a regular basis. The pros don't owe the members of this forum anything.

I'm a business man first and a philanthopist second. :smile: I enjoy the process of obtaining & providing a needed product, adding value to it and then selling it for a profit. I just feel like if this forum is going to be your hunting grounds, you ought to have to pay to hunt.

Payment can be made in trade or cash.

The professional pool players can't get enough money together to play in a pool tournament and you want them to pay? BESIDES, they aren't hunting for customers in this forum; the instructors are.

(Every once in a while, we'll get some joker to come on the forum and ask for some gambling action. Looking for some gambling action on this forum is like looking in the desert for some ice cubes.)

FTR, I don't see Stan Shuffett getting on this forum and regularly soliciting customers.

Stan is highly respected for his honesty, the value that he brings to his pool clinics, how he conducts himself in private and public as well as the manner in which he has brought his son along in this sport. That's why professionals and amateurs alike seek him out. Stan Shuffett is a professional and a fair dinkum kind of guy but most importantly as far as pool is concerned he is a talented teacher.

Now go tell the next pro you see to send us free tickets to the U.S. Open 9 Ball Championship and to make sure they are good seats.

JoeyA

In no particular order, it was I who stated that Stan almost never posts here to solicit customers...so we AGREE on that.

Yes the pros DO "owe" the members of this forum, all forums and members of the general public for what livlihood they have left...at least from organized tournaments and sponsorship deals. It is the PUBLIC that funds all such enterprises one way or the other.

The issue is that there are VERY, VERY few pros who understand how much more money they could earn outside of the tournament if they WORKED HARD for it. Jeannette Lee makes TONS and TONS of money outside the small amount of tournament income she has made and she has worked HARD AND SMART for all of it.

Reba McEntire used to stay to sign authgraphs for every single one of her fan club members...for free. The regional clubs got so large that SHE rented motel conference space AT HER EXPENSE and would go there after her concerts to "meet and greet" and sign authgraphs if it took until the sun came up....for free.

ONE of the many reasons that pro pool so lacks widespread popularity is that so few pros really bust their humps to market themselves.

You stated that the pros don't post here for the purpose of hawking their products or services but John Schmidt has done so very recently...inviting people into his home for lessons.

Mike G. also trumpted instruction sessions he was helping Earl to engage in and Charlie Williams is ALL OVER the forums touring his events...as well he should!!

Hopefully, we are just proving that reasonable men can disagree.
(-:

Jim

 

[dr_dave]

FB aims low, and video perspective can be deceiving

What I saw is: during his practice strokes, he is aiming at the bottom of the ball, or even below the bottom of the ball, and then on his final stroke he somehow brings the tip up to the desired contact point on the cue ball. I certainly would not want to try this. He does it well, but I seriously doubt I could. I think the camera angle makes it look like he is pivoting the cue during the final stroke, but I think this is a perspective thing ... the cue is coming up and the camera angle makes it look like the cue is also pivoting, but I don't think it is (but I'm not sure). I always thought he aimed low so he could more easily align his cue with the centerline of the cue ball, by sighting over the top of the tip to the resting point of the ball on the cloth, but that's just a guess.

While you're saying you guess and that you're not sure... I'm telling you 'I know.'

I added the "I think" and "but I'm not sure" phrases because it is very difficult to tell from the video you referenced. Based on me watching Francisco in many matches, I can say for sure that he aims low (sometimes with his tip on the cloth well in front of the cue ball!). He brings his tip up on the final stroke (on most shots). These are facts. He might also swoop his tip sideways (as he is brings it up) when he uses English, but I'm not sure I've seen him do this consistently. I certainly pay more attention the next time I see him play.

I also know from direct experience with video that perspective can be deceiving. If the camera is not looking straight down the aiming line or if it is not directly overhead, the tip may appear to move sideways when it is actually just moving up. This is also a fact.

Having said all of that, I don't claim you are wrong in what you know. However, it does seem that your tone towards me has been very confrontational lately, and I don't know why. Please let me know (by private message or email if you prefer) if I have written something to offend you.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Patrick Johnson]

While you're saying you guess and that you're not sure... I'm telling you 'I know.'

Maybe you do, but I don't think you can "know" anything from clips like those - like Dave says, they're just not clear enough. Even when some backhand movement is clear (it's only really clear in the last clip), it's impossible to tell what its purpose is, and on that particular shot it looked more like the purpose was BHE than an aiming technique (some sidespin was needed).

pj
chgo

 

[SJDinPHX]

I'll Pass on aiming systems.

Aiming systems are just that, systems. If you have a "system" for craps or roulette, any Vegas casino will send a limo for you. No aiming system is foolproof, or even close to it. If you've been practicing for 5-10 years, and you don't know where to hit the ball to make it go in the pocket, well I'm sorry to say, you probably never will. There are just too many variables, squirt, cloth speed, english applied etc. So you've got a system that works for you to pocket a ball. Unless it's the last one on the table, you'd better know where whitey's going after that.

Dick

 

[CueAndMe]

With respect, I don't agree. In giving the system the "acid test" I place the CB on the foot spot and began to shoot balls from slightly off the rail at the first diamond beyond the side pockets...moving the OB in 1 ball width increments for each shot.

I approached the shots EXACTLY as taught in every instance...no adjustments. I did use sort of a Allen Hopkins mini stroke...with a slow to medium pace so as to reduce stroking errors as much as possible and found that the only times I missed was when I DID make adjustments because (mostly) certain shots looked too thick...but I would over cut them.

IMHO, those who dismiss the method as voodoo (many of whom do not even understand the system or are blending it with some other system) and who say the system is "inconsistent" are actually committing stroke errors and miss because of that.

I certainly make errors when shooting with a "normal stroke" as has every pool player who has ever lived.

I guess this debate will rage until the end of the world unless someone uses a stroke machine to test it out.

Finally, it is true that Stan Shuffett has made some modifications to the system that he now calls Pro One and all of my comments are related to THAT system and no other system so the fact that you learned what Hal was teaching at the time you trained with him (which may or may not be the same system...exactly...that he teaches now) is beside the point.

Regards,

Jim

Regards,
Jim

Jim, if you hang around a little longer maybe we can all sort this out. I'm open to you proving me wrong. Maybe, if you're open to it, I can prove that I'm right. Regardless, it's an interesting system and one that should be tested. We have just what we need. Two diametrically opposed groups. And I think some from each group would be willing to go through some experiments. Please stick around, even if just to debate the points I make. I think a conclusion can be reached here. There's no doubt in my mind that the system works. It's the how that I feel is worth exploring.
I know you'll agree that we've all been so sure that something works a certain way only to be proven incorrect. Am I right?

 

[Scott Lee]

Wow Joey...Now you're making snide remarks that I don't understand at all. Since I'm one of the few instructors who post here regularly (frequently offering help on any number of questions and topics, related to understanding and learning to play pool better), and appear to be who you are singling out in this particular post...exactly how am I "hunting for customers" here? When have I EVER solicited lessons here? What I have done, is make the readers aware when a pool school may be coming to their area. That is not solicitation...it is awareness. It is still the readers choice whether to participate or not. The 'reviews' posted by others, whether from pool school, or private lessons, have been 99.9% highly positive. IMO, that's a contribution to the forum, and NEVER something we instructors request our students do (any testimonials are completely unsolicited). I have, on a few occasions, made mention of my travel schedule here (due to others requests for such). I suppose that could be construed as 'soliciting'. However, I have also done free clinics at major national tournaments, and the DCC, for anyone who cared to attend them. Speaking of "paying to hunt", however inappropriate, I am a paying member of this forum, while you are not. How come you don't "support" AzBilliards, by becoming a member? The cost is very small, compared to the cost of running this site.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

You had to go and post that perspective about the pros, didn't ya? That's two things in one day that we don't agree on. Things are really heading downhill between you and I.

As you mentioned, the pros don't get on this forum hawking their products and services, especially not on a regular basis. The pros don't owe the members of this forum anything.

I'm a business man first and a philanthopist second. :smile: I enjoy the process of obtaining & providing a needed product, adding value to it and then selling it for a profit. I just feel like if this forum is going to be your hunting grounds, you ought to have to pay to hunt.

Payment can be made in trade or cash.

The professional pool players can't get enough money together to play in a pool tournament and you want them to pay? BESIDES, they aren't hunting for customers in this forum; the instructors are.

FTR, I don't see Stan Shuffett getting on this forum and regularly soliciting customers.

Stan is highly respected for his honesty, the value that he brings to his pool clinics, how he conducts himself in private and public as well as the manner in which he has brought his son along in this sport. That's why professionals and amateurs alike seek him out. Stan Shuffett is a professional and a fair dinkum kind of guy but most importantly as far as pool is concerned he is a talented teacher.

Now go tell the next pro you see to send us free tickets to the U.S. Open 9 Ball Championship and to make sure they are good seats.

JoeyA

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Wow Joey...Now you're making snide remarks that I don't understand at all. Since I'm one of the few instructors who post here regularly (frequently offering help on any number of questions and topics, related to understanding and learning to play pool better), and appear to be who you are singling out in this particular post...exactly how am I "hunting for customers" here? When have I EVER solicited lessons here? What I have done, is make the readers aware when a pool school may be coming to their area. That is not solicitation...it is awareness. It is still the readers choice whether to participate or not. The 'reviews' posted by others, whether from pool school, or private lessons, have been 99.9% highly positive. IMO, that's a contribution to the forum, and NEVER something we instructors request our students do (any testimonials are completely unsolicited). I have, on a few occasions, made mention of my travel schedule here (due to others requests for such). I suppose that could be construed as 'soliciting'. However, I have also done free clinics at major national tournaments, and the DCC, for anyone who cared to attend them. Speaking of "paying to hunt", however inappropriate, I am a paying member of this forum, while you are not. How come you don't "support" AzBilliards, by becoming a member? The cost is very small, compared to the cost of running this site.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I'd be surprised if Joey meant anything personal by his comments, Scott, and I think keeping us informed of your (and the Pool School's) travels and availability is a service to us that we all appreciate and want you to profit from.

Now will you teach us SAM?

pj
chgo