hammer stroke

[CJ Wiley]

When you get the feeling of the "knife edge" going through the air creating a "slot"

Hi CJ,

As you may or may not know the dropping of the elbow & keeping the elbow fixed has been a topic of debate recently.

I do not & never have given one thought to my elbow in the many mnay years that I have played. I have just always focused on delivering the cue straight into & through the cue ball.

I had always used what would be called by most a loose grip where the cue sort of pivots as though there was a small rod that was running from the tops of my thumb & index finger through the butt of the cue.

When I went to using TOI my grip naturally firmed up with no real conscious thought by me. I have also not consciously used the hammer stroke but...again have been subconsciously stroking with a more compact stroke & hitting very many shots with just my wrist, hand, & fingers, with very little arm swing & the action has been that of your hammer action.

With a firm grip, if one swings the forearm with a fixed elbow or if one swings the whole arm from the shoulder & allows the elbow to drop, both methods would make the tip rise going through if some other movement is not made in conjunction with them.

Naturally, the hammer wrist action sends the tip down by it self with no other motion going along with it. So...the hammer wrist action & the arm swings with a frim grip want to send the tip in opposite directions but...the amount that is capable for both is not equal.

So..now to my question. Do you know what or do you have any thought as to anything else that offsets the greater amount of tip movement that would occur from the larger movement of the arm swings with a firm grip?

As I 'see' it, it is the extension of the forearm away from the upper arm as opposed to bringing them together. Am I correct, on the right track, or not? It that what your sword drill is about & if so would you care to elaborate on it?

As Always, Best Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick

First off, with exception to this forum I've NEVER heard a champion caliber players talk about the elbow.....it's simply not necessary to contemplate this action. What's more important is not moving the shoulder (although there's exceptions), it needs to stay out of the stroke and just add stability. The #1 objective is to extend the TIP through the cue ball on a track/groove/slot. This way the tip/cue can NOT deviate left or right on any shot.

The TIP should go as quickly and accurately through the cue ball as possible with a minimal effort......using a force similar to hammering a nail...it's not "centrifugal force," however, that may be the best way to think about it as a "swing thought".

I'm interested in how the cue and tip move - that's what the sword training does, it strengthens the movement of the sword's edge "like" a pool cue through the imaginary cue ball. When you get the feeling of the "knife edge" going through the air (creating a "slot/groove") with some resistance it is a very good way to experience "razor sharp" accuracy. Then it's just a matter of switching to a pool cue and feeling the same sensation.

If you don't have access to a sword you can use a yard stick or other flat "stick" as a substitute, the main objective is to feel the edge moving back and forth without moving your shoulder......let the elbow do what it wants, JUST concentrate on the blade's edge being precisely on a "track/groove/slot". 'The Game will be your Teacher'

 

[ENGLISH!]

First off, with exception to this forum I've NEVER heard a champion caliber players talk about the elbow.....it's simply not necessary to contemplate this action. What's more important is not moving the shoulder (although there's exceptions), it needs to stay out of the stroke and just add stability. The #1 objective is to extend the TIP through the cue ball on a track/groove/slot. This way the tip/cue can NOT deviate left or right on any shot.

The TIP should go as quickly and accurately through the cue ball as possible with a minimal effort......using a force similar to hammering a nail...it's not "centrifugal force," however, that may be the best way to think about it as a "swing thought".

I'm interested in how the cue and tip move - that's what the sword training does, it strengthens the movement of the sword's edge "like" a pool cue through the imaginary cue ball. When you get the feeling of the "knife edge" going through the air (creating a "slot/groove") with some resistance it is a very good way to experience "razor sharp" accuracy. Then it's just a matter of switching to a pool cue and feeling the same sensation.

If you don't have access to a sword you can use a yard stick or other flat "stick" as a substitute, the main objective is to feel the edge moving back and forth without moving your shoulder......let the elbow do what it wants, JUST concentrate on the blade's edge being precisely on a "track/groove/slot". 'The Game will be your Teacher'

Thanks CJ.

I especially agree with your first statement & I too have NEVER heard anyone talk about the elbow in regards to the stroke until coming on AZB either.

I may go pawn shop hopping to see if I can find a sword so the grip can be more true to form so to speak.

Thanks Again & Best Wishes,
Rick

 

[Randy9Ball]

First off, with exception to this forum I've NEVER heard a champion caliber players talk about the elbow.....it's simply not necessary to contemplate this action. What's more important is not moving the shoulder (although there's exceptions), it needs to stay out of the stroke and just add stability. The #1 objective is to extend the TIP through the cue ball on a track/groove/slot. This way the tip/cue can NOT deviate left or right on any shot.

The TIP should go as quickly and accurately through the cue ball as possible with a minimal effort......using a force similar to hammering a nail...it's not "centrifugal force," however, that may be the best way to think about it as a "swing thought".

I'm interested in how the cue and tip move - that's what the sword training does, it strengthens the movement of the sword's edge "like" a pool cue through the imaginary cue ball. When you get the feeling of the "knife edge" going through the air (creating a "slot/groove") with some resistance it is a very good way to experience "razor sharp" accuracy. Then it's just a matter of switching to a pool cue and feeling the same sensation.

If you don't have access to a sword you can use a yard stick or other flat "stick" as a substitute, the main objective is to feel the edge moving back and forth without moving your shoulder......let the elbow do what it wants, JUST concentrate on the blade's edge being precisely on a "track/groove/slot". 'The Game will be your Teacher'

CJ,

Any chance you could put up a quick video demonstration of this sword exercise you speak of?

Thanks,

Randy

 

[Tony_in_MD]

When you see Johnny ask him.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nmRfZV15h5A&feature=plpp#

Or Lori Jon.

In order to drop the elbow the shoulder joint must move. What you see is an elbow drop but it is not the cause just the effect.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Who is the "elbow expert"?

When you see Johnny ask him.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nmRfZV15h5A&feature=plpp#

Or Lori Jon.

In order to drop the elbow the shoulder joint must move. What you see is an elbow drop but it is not the cause just the effect.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.

Again, I've had countless conversations about pool with fellow "Road Players" and Champion Tournament Players and not once has the elbow been mentioned.

I've never given my elbow any thought, as long as my upper body angles are correct in my pre shot routine and I bring my hand back and return it EXACTLY where it was in my address {to the cue ball} everything is "Golden".....the key is finding the slot/groove/track of the stroke so the cue MUST go straight and can not veer off the "line of the shot/".

I'm not sure who the "elbow expert" is, but I'd sure like to play them some for "a chip or two". Thinking about the "pendulum" or "elbow movement" is a recipe for "paralysis by analysis." . imho Would a tennis player or golfer focus on their elbow, other than it's position before the swing?

I recommend concentrating on what the cue, hands, and tip are doing and let the elbow do whatever it chooses. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[Tony_in_MD]

I don't know anyone who thinks about this when they play. It is engrained in the the players form from sheer repetition.

Furthermore I am sure you would agree that many players really have no idea of what they do or if the did they have a hard time describing it. Only through careful introspection can one begin to detail whatv they do. Few make an effort to think about their game.

You stated you never heard of this prior to joining and I provided an instructional link showing it exists. Just cause you have not heard about does not make it untrue or invalid. If it did could i say the same about TOI or the hammer stoke ?

Again, I've had countless conversations about pool with fellow "Road Players" and Champion Tournament Players and not once has the elbow been mentioned.

I've never given my elbow any thought, as long as my upper body angles are correct in my pre shot routine and I bring my hand back and return it EXACTLY where it was in my address {to the cue ball} everything is "Golden".....the key is finding the slot/groove/track of the stroke so the cue MUST go straight and can not veer off the "line of the shot/".

I'm not sure who the "elbow expert" is, but I'd sure like to play them some for "a chip or two". Thinking about the "pendulum" or "elbow movement" is a recipe for "paralysis by analysis." . imho Would a tennis player or golfer focus on their elbow, other than it's position before the swing?

I recommend concentrating on what the cue, hands, and tip are doing and let the elbow do whatever it chooses. 'The Game is the Teacher'

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.

 

[CJ Wiley]

if I hit a nerve, my intent was for it to be the "funny bone".

I don't know anyone who thinks about this when they play. It is engrained in the the players form from sheer repetition.

Furthermore I am sure you would agree that many players really have no idea of what they do or if the did they have a hard time describing it. Only through careful introspection can one begin to detail whatv they do. Few make an effort to think about their game.

You stated you never heard of this prior to joining and I provided an instructional link showing it exists. Just cause you have not heard about does not make it untrue or invalid. If it did could i say the same about TOI or the hammer stoke ?

On the contrary, I have heard of the elbow ("it") and "real eyes" that it could "drop" at any time. I apologize if I hit a nerve, my intent was for it to be the "funny bone".

 

[Tony_in_MD]

You were not close to hitting a nerve with me and I am unsure if you were serious or not.

Usually if a person conveying emotion in there text you may use an emoticon

I know you know about them as you tend to use a lot of them. You did not this time.

Tell me if I said that the hammer stroke is a bunch of bunk only designed to create business do you think I am kidding?

On the contrary, I have heard of the elbow ("it") and "real eyes" that it could "drop" at any time. I apologize if I hit a nerve, my intent was for it to be the "funny bone".

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[CJ Wiley]

if it's done incorrectly the sword can do damage.

CJ,

Any chance you could put up a quick video demonstration of this sword exercise you speak of?

Thanks,

Randy

I don't think that would be wise, it would take more than a "quick video demonstration" to do it justice. Maybe someone that's done it will explain it in more detail. There are some serious positive effects, and there can also be some detrimental side effects if done incorrectly.

The most important thing is to do the stroke EXACTLY right and program the muscle memory. This is difficult to do by yourself without an educated eye watching - if it's done incorrectly the sword can do damage because of it's weight.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

With a firm grip, if one swings the forearm with a fixed elbow or if one swings the whole arm from the shoulder & allows the elbow to drop, both methods would make the tip rise going through if some other movement is not made in conjunction with them.

Still at it with the same completely erroneous concept after all this time, huh? What, the little stroke-path machine and the computer model wasn't proof enough for ya, eh?

You need to check this horse's pulse, 'cause he be looking dead, dead, dead.:deadhorse:

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

Just cause you have not heard about does not make it untrue or invalid. If it did could i say the same about TOI or the hammer stoke ?

Ah, c'mon, Tony. We never heard about the sword stroke training all the pros have been secretly using for decades, either. Ever stop to think maybe everything is true... somewhere?

FWIW I happen to have a few swords in my possession, so I gave the CJ stab-stroke method a try. He's right, you do need special one-on-one instruction for safety sake. I tore a two foot gash in my new Simonis, pierced a perfectly good measles ball, and nearly cut off my f*cking thumb!

If you really want to explore this avenue without the help of a certified specialist I suggest you substitute something else for the sword, like maybe a pool cue.

 

[sfleinen]

Still at it with the same completely erroneous concept after all this time, huh? What, the little stroke-path machine and the computer model wasn't proof enough for ya, eh?

You need to check this horse's pulse, 'cause he be looking dead, dead, dead.:deadhorse:

It's called the tertiary stage of tetanus. You know, where lockjaw sets in. It is obsessive-compulsive fixation at the "nth" degree, and has been shown, is incurable. Once those chompers clamp down on a topic, that poor topic can't be pried loose. Now imagine if the lockjaw sufferer also blames YOU for his condition -- i.e. "the devil makes me do this"?

Sad,
-Sean

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

It's called the tertiary stage of tetanus. You know, where lockjaw sets in. It is obsessive-compulsive fixation at the "nth" degree, and has been shown, is incurable. Once those chompers clamp down on a topic, that poor topic can't be pried loose. Now imagine if the lockjaw sufferer also blames YOU for his condition -- i.e. "the devil makes me do this"?

Sad,
-Sean

Yeah, I noticed. The devil made him post 30 times yesterday alone. Christ, I hope I haven't added more gasoline to his fire. lol

What do you think, Sean, should we all pitch in and get him a 60-day supply of some of this?

http://www.hellolife.net/compulsin/...|29701255342&gclid=CIeg5Y7MtLkCFdOj4Aod9DYA2w

 

[Tony_in_MD]

Nice to know I wasn't alone in this thought.

Put me in for a percentage.

Yeah, I noticed. The devil made him post 30 times yesterday alone. Christ, I hope I haven't added more gasoline to his fire. lol

What do you think, Sean, should we all pitch in and get him a 60-day supply of some of this?

http://www.hellolife.net/compulsin/...|29701255342&gclid=CIeg5Y7MtLkCFdOj4Aod9DYA2w

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Still at it with the same completely erroneous concept after all this time, huh? What, the little stroke-path machine and the computer model wasn't proof enough for ya, eh?

You need to check this horse's pulse, 'cause he be looking dead, dead, dead.:deadhorse:

I don't know why I am doing this.

The sentence that you have dissected & taken out from my complete post & then attached to to your post is extremely misleading.

But I have come to expect distortion & deception from a certain AZB faction.

I'll just leave it to those with reading comprehension that has not been damaged by drinking too much Kool Aide to judge for themselves.

 

[Tony_in_MD]

You do know there are different styles of swordplay based on the type of sword. I prefer broadsword stokes myself. Big swinging arcs designed to break arms or lop off heads. Have not been successful in relating that to my pool stoke though. Guess I need to wait for the next video by Cj. With commentary by Rick.

Oh, just my opinion and I could be wrong.

Come to think of it I like axes too. Must be the Viking in me.

Ah, c'mon, Tony. We never heard about the sword stroke training all the pros have been secretly using for decades, either. Ever stop to think maybe everything is true... somewhere?

FWIW I happen to have a few swords in my possession, so I gave the CJ stab-stroke method a try. He's right, you do need special one-on-one instruction for safety sake. I tore a two foot gash in my new Simonis, pierced a perfectly good measles ball, and nearly cut off my f*cking thumb!

If you really want to explore this avenue without the help of a certified specialist I suggest you substitute something else for the sword, like maybe a pool cue.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.

 

[sfleinen]

Yeah, I noticed. The devil made him post 30 times yesterday alone. Christ, I hope I haven't added more gasoline to his fire. lol

What do you think, Sean, should we all pitch in and get him a 60-day supply of some of this?

http://www.hellolife.net/compulsin/...|29701255342&gclid=CIeg5Y7MtLkCFdOj4Aod9DYA2w

Oh gawwwwd! <...thump!...> Fell backwards, LOLing. Does this stuff also address redirection/projection issues as well (i.e. "you made me do this!")?

Nice to know I wasn't alone in this thought.

Put me in for a percentage.

Yup, put me in for a percentage as well.

-Sean

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

I don't why I am doing this.

The sentence that you have dissected & taken out from my complete post & then attached to to your post is extremely misleading.

But I have come to expect distortion & deception from a certain AZB faction.

I'll just leave it to those with reading comprehension that has not been damaged by drinking too much Kool Aide to judge for themselves.

Now, what do you want me to do, quote the entirety of every 17,000 word post you make just to contest one sentence contain within? I for one hate it when folks are too lazy to delete the non-pertinent parts of posts that they quote. There is no distortion or deception meant on my part by doing it the way I do. I'm just trying to save the next reader a couple hours a day by not having to re-read all of your tripe.

And for the record, Mr. ENGLISH!, I ain't in anybody's "faction". I'm my own man and have no problem calling out Sean, Tony, Scott, Lou, Neil or any of your perceived enemies here if I feel it's warranted. Just that it rarely happens with them. I'll also agree with you and/or your buddy CJ when I feel you are correct, without fear of being ostracized by the "clique" you imagine is controlling the AZB boards.

This is the freaking Internet, for Christ's sake. When it comes right down to it, I don't personally know any of you and I could give a rat's ass what anyone here thinks of me. Only thing that matters to me is that I feel I behaved appropriately. Sadly, I have come to believe that, not only is this treatment of you here appropriate, it is really what you are seeking in some strange and masochistic way.

So get over your paranoia and be a good little contributor, K? No one is out to get you. Why would they be? Nobody really cares.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I always did like the 3 Stooges & their silly comedy.

They were such 'clowns'.

 

[Ralph Kramden]

It's the same wrist motion you'd use in hammering a nail, throwing a dart or, as Hank Haney (Tiger Woods past swing coach) demonstrates, stroking a golf ball. This is the opposite of what's commonly taught, but don't let that confuse you, what's "commonly taught" and what's most effective are often very different.

This is evident in sports, games, history, science and yes, even pocket billiards.....pool is not "the exception," it's the sample example. Controlling the TIP with the hand (through your cue) is mandatory for maximizing touch, feel and acceleration in YOUR GAME.

You can see this in all facets of life and the world. I'm only suggesting you try these type techniques with an open mind.....and let the game be your teacher.

I'm trying hard to imagine a cue in this guy's hand. I think the pictures shown are somewhat misleading, unless he was holding a hammer or fly swatter.
There's no way he could thrust a cue forward with that hand action. I understand the reasoning but the picture needs to show a downward arm position.