Hardships of Professional Pool as a Career

[BasementDweller]

This player is not a 740 because they don't get to run with the big dogs, if anything his rating could be slightly inflated because he's not running with them.

This thread has been overwhelmingly constructive but yet JAM still laments our collective stating of the obvious -- this player is not good enough to be competitive in international fields.

The actual players I feel sorry for are the players in the 770-790 range. These players are so close to world class but yet their tourney winnings are dwindling by the year. There are former World Champions in this position.

 

[336Robin]

Here is a few snippets from a post I read earlier today: I dedicated my life to pool achieving significant results and often representing my country abroad ... a “name” in the world of billiards. Along this journey I've faced several really tough obstacles to overcome and somehow I've always made it. Today is different though. Today the difficulties seem more cruel than yesterday and the obstacles insurmountable. I don't know if it's me who changed. Asking myself unanswered questions today.

I wonder if it's fair for a player with my history to refrain from competing because the economies won't allow him to. I wonder if it's normal for said player to constantly receive invitations from many parts of the world and is forced, for the same reason, to always reply with a "no thanks" (and God knows if I would want to go and prove what I've got). I wonder if it makes any sense to continue all this in a country that seems to have forgotten (if it ever fully understood) the meaning of the term "sport billiard."

I can't keep deceiving myself. I don't want to. If no one believes anymore, then I give up. With no drama or regrets.


I almost hesitate to post this thread, but I empathize with the plight of those who have devoted their lives to professional pool. As the saying goes, only the strong survive, but in pool, this has a broader meaning. Unless you're in the top 5 percent of professional-caliber players, I do not think it's possible to make ends meet, unless you have a sponsor, stakehorse, or rich spouse. It's not possible to hold down a 9-to-5 job if you're traveling around the world to compete on the tournament trail, and then there's the time that's needed to devote to practice to keep your skills up.

I recently read this post from a pro player I really do admire and like. Unlike some who think pro pool players are "looking for handouts," there are those who truly do want to give it their all and rise to the top. This is not possible without funding in today's pool world. I've heard and read all the swipes written by those who have a disdain for professional pool players, saying they're bums, substance abusers, and need to get a job. But let it be known that there are some pro-caliber players, aspiring and seasoned, who do want to work hard and give it their all.

I'm not sure what the answer is today to help aspiring and veteran players stay in the sport. Matchroom and Predator are doing a lot with their tour stops, providing a lot of opportunities for pro players to follow their dreams and develop their professional career. However, without funding, it is not possible in 2023 to attend all of these great, great pool competitions.

I am looking forward to seeing how 2023 unfolds for professional pool. There is hope with the multitude of competitions up ahead, but one cannot compete if they do not have the means or funding. I'm hoping 2023 will be the year that pool makes headway and brings in new blood as well as keep the existing lot of professional players in the sport.

At this point Pool doesn't get the views needed to support itself commercially.

Enjoying the Pool we have now and not over-extending the program seems the right thing to do.

 

[JAM]

This player is not a 740 because they don't get to run with the big dogs, if anything his rating could be slightly inflated because he's not running with them.

This thread has been overwhelmingly constructive but yet JAM still laments our collective stating of the obvious -- this player is not good enough to be competitive in international fields.

The actual players I feel sorry for are the players in the 770-790 range. These players are so close to world class but yet their tourney winnings are dwindling by the year. There are former World Champions in this position.

And while you and others are lamenting that this player is not "good enough," I will continue to state the obvious. It is a hardship for any professional pool player to shoot pool full-time on today's professional pool tournament trail to raise their rank if they have no money to support themselves going to two, three, and four tournaments every month around the world. The person just might rank in the 800s if only afforded the opportunity, but due to money problems, they cannot attend the events to raise their rank. What is so hard to understand about this?

If this player is not "good enough," as you state, why is he being invited to attend world championship events in 2022 to represent his country?

That is my story, and I am sticking with it. It's the truth.

 

[BasementDweller]

And while you and others are lamenting that this player is not "good enough," I will continue to state the obvious. It is a hardship for any professional pool player to shoot pool full-time on today's professional pool tournament trail to raise their rank if they have no money to support themselves going to two, three, and four tournaments every month around the world. The person just might rank in the 800s if only afforded the opportunity, but due to money problems, they cannot attend the events to raise their rank. What is so hard to understand about this?

If this player is not "good enough," as you state, why is he being invited to attend world championship events in 2022 to represent his country?

That is my story, and I am sticking with it. It's the truth.

What you don't understand is you don't have to be a globe-trotting professional to raise your Fargo Rating. 99% of the players in the system aren't professionals and they can all work on raising their score if they so desire. Just to be clear -- a 740 is a great player. Just nowhere near top 100.

You've brought up an interesting topic and it's a conversation more players are going to be faced with having as FargoRate becomes more and more accepted.

 

[JAM]

What you don't understand is you don't have to be a globe-trotting professional to raise your Fargo Rating. 99% of the players in the system aren't professionals and they can all work on raising their score if they so desire. Just to be clear -- a 740 is a great player. Just nowhere near top 100.

You've brought up an interesting topic and it's a conversation more players are going to be faced with having as FargoRating become more and more accepted.

Well, I guess I'll retire from this thread and watch the Cazoo Snooker Masters. First place pays $305,775 (250,000 pounds) and second place pays $122,130 (100,000 pounds).

If a pool player won one of these events, it would sustain him/her—and don't get me started on the discrimination of payouts for female pros—the rest of the year and give him/her the financial means to compete in other snooker events. Winning $30,000 for first place is great, but it does not afford a globe-trotting professional to stay active on the professional pool tournament trail; thus, the reason for this thread.

 

[dendweller]

This player is not a 740 because they don't get to run with the big dogs, if anything his rating could be slightly inflated because he's not running with them.

This thread has been overwhelmingly constructive but yet JAM still laments our collective stating of the obvious -- this player is not good enough to be competitive in international fields.

The actual players I feel sorry for are the players in the 770-790 range. These players are so close to world class but yet their tourney winnings are dwindling by the year. There are former World Champions in this position.

I agree, I haven't seen anything in the thread that was bashing pros, I've been trying to figure out where that view comes from.

 

[JAM]

I agree, I haven't seen anything in the thread that was bashing pros, I've been trying to figure out where that view comes from.

Maybe "bashing" was not a good choice of words. How about "ridiculing" or "mocking"? If you look through the thread, you'll see a few posts that fit this wording.

 

[dendweller]

Maybe "bashing" was not a good choice of words. How about "ridiculing" or "mocking"? If you look through the thread, you'll see a few posts that fit this wording.

Guess you'd have to point it out, pretty sure I read the entire thread

 

[JAM]

Guess you'd have to point it out, pretty sure I read the entire thread

I see you're a fairly new member to AzBilliards. This forum is a better place with members like you providing their contributions to the topic of pool. That's a good thing for sure.

If I point it out, this thread might take a turn for the worst, so I chose to ignore it and did not reply.

 

[CanadianGuy]

governments in first world nations can help here,

I would like to see some money funded by government towards athlete and coaching stipends,
we have this in Canada

also, there should be income tax breaks and exceptions as almost all tournaments have entry fees which make winnings.....well....
winnings....as in from from pooled monies and not earnings.....this is an important distinction

we pay nothing here in taxes on any winnings from lottery, casino gambling, pools, etc......governments who do this are financially assaulting people

 

[justnum]

Pro pool players are comparable to professional distance runners.

Marathon runners have a few big events and the cost to travel to events are high.

Sponsorship deals exist but most runners have to promote gear and live lean. If one injury happens they could be out as little as one race or multiple years.

Pro pool players and pool room owners are in the same boat. How can that relationship can evolve over time is unclear?

At this point in time funneling traffic to pro players or certain pool rooms.

As for Jam's individual, making a living is challenging in many countries. In countries where poverty is much higher the only way out is academic/sports scholarships or military service.

The pool industry is evolving, which evolutions help it become self sustaining are not clear. When many people try to solve a problem there is a chance something new will happen.

 

[SEB]

Then, in my view, he is no longer a competitive tournament player. That would get him #40 in the US, and it's well out of the top 100 in the world.

If he cannot find a way to continue to make a living being involved with the game, and he cannot afford to retire, he needs to find a job outside the game. But you've already mentioned pool-related ways he makes money. Maybe he would be better off upping his game there. I hear that Matchroom is looking for a tournament director. YouTube videos can be lucrative -- some of them pay over $2 per thousand views. If that's the range Sharivari is getting, he's made a total of over $100,000 off his videos, he hasn't been around that long, and each video continues to get views.

Let’s just take it easy here. The guy (whoever it is) is probably the 200-250th best player in the world. He isn’t going to take down majors but he needs to get industrious. Move to Vegas and hangout at Griffs…play regional events. Play local events. Use a fake name and gamble. There are all kinds of opportunities for a player of his caliber. Hell, i make a couple hundred a week playing in my spare time and I’m half the player this guy is.

 

[336Robin]

Well, I guess I'll retire from this thread and watch the Cazoo Snooker Masters. First place pays $305,775 (250,000 pounds) and second place pays $122,130 (100,000 pounds).

If a pool player won one of these events, it would sustain him/her—and don't get me started on the discrimination of payouts for female pros—the rest of the year and give him/her the financial means to compete in other snooker events. Winning $30,000 for first place is great, but it does not afford a globe-trotting professional to stay active on the professional pool tournament trail; thus, the reason for this thread.

Jam,
Another thing a lot of these folks aren't taking into consideration is the number of events and the amount of sponsorship it takes to go to all of them because players are also in a race to collect ranking points which you only get if you play them.

I think I saw 30 tournaments eligible for ranking points on Matchrooms schedule.

With them mostly in Europe that is a lot extra added pressure.

If it takes 3000 to enter, travel and hope to place at each event that is 90k dollars per year.

Unless you can get your 3000 back (after taxes) plus some from each event you have a lot more chances of going broke than not.

5000- (30%taxes"1500") =3500. Making 500 dollars a week is ok if your nut is covered, but it can't happen all of the time.

The level of sponsorship needed is immense.

I wonder if European countries sponsor their players more so than the US? Anyone know anything about this?

 

[MattPoland]

And there it is. Pool players should know better than to get into the professional pool is how some who aren't involved in professional pool think.

We all have a job and work 9 to 5 and have insurance and benefits and savings. "The pool players are stupid with their choices in life. Why feel sorry for them?" is how some people view this thread. Meanwhile, this line of thinking and those who think this way, as expressed by some on this thread, are the first ones standing in line for a photo opp and an autograph of the pool player they belittle because of the pool player's choices in life to be a professional pool player. "By golly, why feel sorry for them. They deserve it. They made the choice," again, is how some people think about the professional pool player who has devoted their entire life to pool.

The ridiculing videos and memes have already started to creep in the thread by the usual pro pool player bashers. Welcome to the pool forum where the railbirds and those who do not shoot professional pool know much more than all others.

Regardless of judgment, we all need to face the facts. There’s no victims here, just choices and consequences. Each pro pool player is responsible for their own journey through the minefield. It’s not bashing them, it’s a reality check.

 

[Rocket354]

And while you and others are lamenting that this player is not "good enough," I will continue to state the obvious. It is a hardship for any professional pool player to shoot pool full-time on today's professional pool tournament trail to raise their rank if they have no money to support themselves going to two, three, and four tournaments every month around the world. The person just might rank in the 800s if only afforded the opportunity, but due to money problems, they cannot attend the events to raise their rank. What is so hard to understand about this?

If this player is not "good enough," as you state, why is he being invited to attend world championship events in 2022 to represent his country?

That is my story, and I am sticking with it. It's the truth.

JAM, we've never interacted much, although I've learned to greatly respect your opinions and experiences reading your posts through the years. I also agree with the main theme of this thread, which is that professional pool is a very difficult road to navigate, and outside of a select few, most people do not do well financially, not even enough to call themselves middle-class.

That said, I suspect you might have a misunderstanding of how Fargo rating works. It is not a ranking/points system based on events. Fargo rating is like a chess rating where a person's score goes up or down based on whether they win or lose games and the rating of their opponent. That's why many amateurs have Fargo ratings. This is different from the ratings you might see from, say, Matchroom which just uses tournament results.

If a player has a lot of games under his/her belt and is at a 740 Fargo then it is clear where that player ranks. If you take any of the tippy-top players (Filler, Gorst, SVB, FSR, etc) and did not allow them to play in the major tournaments, but let them play in smaller tournaments they would still have tippy-top Fargo ratings because they'd be winning handily against the players in those smaller tournaments...very likely including your mystery Mr. 744.

 

[jalapus logan]

Well, I guess I'll retire from this thread and watch the Cazoo Snooker Masters. First place pays $305,775 (250,000 pounds) and second place pays $122,130 (100,000 pounds).

If a pool player won one of these events, it would sustain him/her—and don't get me started on the discrimination of payouts for female pros—the rest of the year and give him/her the financial means to compete in other snooker events. Winning $30,000 for first place is great, but it does not afford a globe-trotting professional to stay active on the professional pool tournament trail; thus, the reason for this thread.

I don't know much, but I do know that anonymity is no way to make money if your an athlete or other entertainer. Whomever this 744 player is should be as high profile as possible and let the haters hate, but there's not much to really hate on imo.

 

[JAM]

JAM, we've never interacted much, although I've learned to greatly respect your opinions and experiences reading your posts through the years. I also agree with the main theme of this thread, which is that professional pool is a very difficult road to navigate, and outside of a select few, most people do not do well financially, not even enough to call themselves middle-class.

That said, I suspect you might have a misunderstanding of how Fargo rating works. It is not a ranking/points system based on events. Fargo rating is like a chess rating where a person's score goes up or down based on whether they win or lose games and the rating of their opponent. That's why many amateurs have Fargo ratings. This is different from the ratings you might see from, say, Matchroom which just uses tournament results.

If a player has a lot of games under his/her belt and is at a 740 Fargo then it is clear where that player ranks. If you take any of the tippy-top players (Filler, Gorst, SVB, FSR, etc) and did not allow them to play in the major tournaments, but let them play in smaller tournaments they would still have tippy-top Fargo ratings because they'd be winning handily against the players in those smaller tournaments...very likely including your mystery Mr. 744.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I guess it's kind of like the chicken-and-the egg.

If the well-known pro who gets invited to compete in world championships cannot afford to attend, they also cannot afford to compete in other events around the world as well. Therefore, their Fargo ranking cannot move upwards as do the players who do compete more often and can afford to go to Poland, England, USA, Puerto Rico, China, Philippines, Germany, et cetera.

I know many folks put a lot of credibility into the ranking systems for pool, and for the most part, they can be used as a measuring stick. The hardship, which is the subject of this thread, is for that pool player who is world renown in the pool community, he can't do a damn thing about raising his ranking or attending the world championship that he was invited to if he does not have the funds.

It's not about getting a job, either, just to put that to rest. The pool player is making ends meet at home. It's about having the funds to shoot pool competitively on an international scale. I appreciate Matchroom and Predator and all the other great pool competitions, but for some, the juice ain't worth the squeeze. And so the pro player who has devoted his/her life to pool can continue to give lessons, put on exhibitions, work at a 9-to-5 job and be on the outside looking in.

I maintain my stance that shooting pool professionally on a global scale for the majority of professional pool players presents a hardship due to finances, unless, of course, they have a sponsor, government support, stakehorse, or rich family/spouse.

 

[MitchAlsup]

governments in first world nations can help here,

I would like to see some money funded by government towards athlete and coaching stipends,
we have this in Canada

Oh God, more entitlements...

Are you willing to have your taxes go up to pay for this?--because there would be no way to limit it to pool it would have to cover any amateur playing any kind of sport (maybe even tidily winks).

 

[dendweller]

Oh God, more entitlements...

Are you willing to have your taxes go up to pay for this?--because there would be no way to limit it to pool it would have to cover any amateur playing any kind of sport (maybe even tidily winks).

Have to agree, an activity needs to be able to support itself.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... If the well-known pro who gets invited to compete in world championships cannot afford to attend, they also cannot afford to compete in other events around the world as well. Therefore, their Fargo ranking cannot move upwards as do the players who do compete more often and can afford to go to Poland, England, USA, Puerto Rico, China, Philippines, Germany, et cetera...

The are two systems that are important for rating or ranking pool players.

One is the Matchroom rankings. Those rankings are based on how much money a player has won recently in Matchroom-recognized events. This ranking is based on both quality of performance and frequency of participation, but the latter is only important because you can't win money if you don't play. Participation alone won't get you very far by itself, because a bunch of 17-32 finishes will not be a lot of total cash. You have to keep active to not drop off the rankings.

The second system is FargoRate ratings. It does not care about which events you play in. It only looks at your win/loss record against each person you have played and calculates your strength from those games and how high those players are rated. It doesn't even look at match wins, just rack-by-rack. This is the best way known to compare the strengths of players. Almost 300,000 players have FargoRate ratings.

A player's FargoRate does not change much if they stop playing. Because their match/game history is not being added to, their data is not changing. Their rating may change a little as their opponents' ratings move around with new matches. Their old opponents on average may get stronger or weaker and that will affect the inactive player's rating by a few points.

A very good example of an inactive player's rating not changing much is Mike Dechaine. He has rarely played in the last two or three years -- or maybe longer -- and he is rated at 801.

There are probably many good examples in the Philippines of players who have never played in Matchroom events because they don't leave the Philippines but have achieved FargoRate ratings in the high 700s (e.g. Baseth "Kingpin" Mocaibat). And there are many Chinese players who have been unable to play in Matchroom events during Covid and their ratings have not changed. Their rankings -- the Matchroom list -- are zero, of course.

For the player in question, his Matchroom ranking has dropped because he found it too expensive to play in Matchroom-recognized events. His FargoRate rating has dropped because of losses in whatever matches he has played. His reason for playing poorly may be that he has been unable to get "battle hardened" in the premier events, but the direct cause of his rating decline is the decline in his performance.