Hardtimes, Swannee, Chris and Greg controversy

PoolCueSickness

PoolCueSickness

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This situation that happened at the Swannee tournament at hardtimes having to do with Chris and Greg is extremely unfortunate.
A lot of people had some horrible things to say about a 16-year-old kid, A kid that is only 2 months into being 16, a kid that all he
wants to do is play pool and be good at it. Sure he didn’t make the most sportsmanlike decision, BUT, he was told to take the win
by 2 grown men, adults that have been playing pool for longer than he has been alive, he took their advice and they told him
That it was Greg’s responsibility to mark his own score and that he should take the win. He took their advice and it came back to bite
him In the ASS….. So let me ask all of you something, if you were a 16-year-old kid and A professional pool player and tournament
Director told you that the win was yours, would you have made A different decision???? Keeping in mind that the 16-year-old
kid was under a lot of stress at that point, he didn’t know Which end was up, he was getting advice from to many people, so he
Followed the advice of a professional pool player.

My name is Brett and I work at Stiix billiards, The pool room that Chris plays out of, let me tell you about the the Chris that I
and all the regulars players at Stiix know.

I have known Chris since he was 13 years old, his uncle brought into the pool room to teach him the game, unable to even make a bridge
When he first started, he kept coming back day after day after day, All summer long, he really has a love and fascination for the game.
He started playing with many of the regular players and getting better in Leaps and bounds as everybody tried to help him. He is
A very good kid, well mannered, very polite, good student and a very good athlete, he hopes to attend college on pool scholarship.
He works very hard at his game and puts in the practice time, I see him in the pool room 5 or 6 days a week usually, he is always
Looking to play the best players that are available to him at the time he is in there. And though this incident has him a little down and
bummed out (and rightfully so) he still wants to play at hardtimes as much as he can. So please don’t judge him on this one incident,
When you see him at hardtimes feel free to say hi, shake his hand and get to know him and hopefully you will come to think
Very highly of him as we do here in Ventura. I am sure he will take this whole experience and learn from it, grow from it and become
a better person Because of it….. He is not perfect, he is just 16. Thank you for taking the time to read this and a big thanks and props
to Greg Herada for being understanding and a class act, pool needs more people like you with.
 
I read some of the original thread about the situation but not all of the pages and responses so this might be a duplicate. It's a tough situation but ultimately the responsibility lies with the the player not marking up his score. It reminds me of when your opponent is shooting the wrong ball. Is it the responsibility of their opponent to tell them? Also, even though the score was 6 - 6 and technically the match should have been over, with the dynamics of tournament play, we will never know for sure if the game had been marked when won, what effect that would have had on the match at that point.

It's not the kid's fault that the game wasn't marked nor his responsibility. If he had known at the time, it might have been considered good sportsmanship to say something but after the fact the decision of the tournament director should be headed because the dynamic of the match was changed when the score wasn't put up and the outcome still might have been the same.
 
Great post PCS.
Both Chris and Greg are young and comparatively new to the game and have a lot to learn if they want to be the best that they can be or to do what is necessary to win trophies or make money.
 
I agree that Greg should have marked the game. Mistakes happen.

Didn't he play the last game knowing that Greg had already gotten to 7.

Personally once it was over and he got the 7th game I dont think he should have forfeited but if he knew before he got to 7 then I think the correct thing to do was concede.

2 things stand out to me that would upset me if I were the kid.

A- greg is a good player that has put in time.. taking this win takes a lot away from him even though he forgot the game
B-I would not feel like I won... even the last shot before the combo its easy to see that Greg was a bit on tilt.

Tough situation that both will overcome and hopefully there wont be any grudges.
 
whoever is responsible for making up the shoddy rule is to blame 100%, the only other game that is scored similarly is high school tennis and of the 1000's of matches i was around as a player and a coach i cannot think of 1 instance of any argument or any controversy over a score not bein marked up, parents would notice the score and it would be agreed upon and adjusted then or during the next change over, pool is an absolute joke and this is just more proof
 
in a tournament it is a game of rules that cover most every situation. you follow the rules or are penalized. that is called a tournament. if a player misses out and doesnt follow a rule he loses that decision.
it has nothing to do with who should have won. it is all about who won according to the rules of the tournament. simple as that.
 
Before I start down this road I want to reiterate something.

maha said:
in a tournament it is a game of rules that cover most every situation. you follow the rules or are penalized. that is called a tournament. if a player misses out and doesnt follow a rule he loses that decision.
it has nothing to do with who should have won. it is all about who won according to the rules of the tournament. simple as that.
Click to expand...

I do not have any ill feelings towards Chris and I do NOT blame him for this.

So if any of the people saying that people are saying all this bad stuff about Chris are thinking in my direction, you need to stop right now.

That being said, this is NOT a rules issue. There is NOT a rule that covers this situation. The only RULE in relation to this issue is the rule that the tournament director has the final say and in this case that final say was that they would play it out.

There shouldn't have been an issue that required the tournament director to arbitrate in the first place, as soon as it was discovered that the requisite games had been won, it should have been over. That is the ethical decision to make.

I have MANY harsh, bad, insert whatever pejorative you wish here, things to say about the people who advised him to not allow the tournament director to award him the unscored game or to play out a final decisioner game. THAT is horrible advice.

I'm going to make a concerted effort to go to Stix and talk to Chris to make sure he understands that I do not blame him for the situation or decision he made regarding it and I will offer him some advice for the rest of his serious endeavors into the world of pool...I'll also offer to play with him some and give him some free lessons.

The people in pool to look up to are Oscar Dominguez, Ernesto Dominguez, Max Eberle, Dave Hemmah. Look at what they do in situations like this and emulate them. Ask THEIR advice and see what they say.

Now one could say that Dave is the one who made the decision, so why would you name him?

One Dave was put in an untenable situation, and two, how Dave would handle it as a player involved and as a TD are two different animals.

Jaden
 
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I think Chris was advised well in this case by sportsmen that know the nature of competition. His opponent failed in their responsibility (since there was no referee or scorekeeper), so he learned a lesson about paying attention to detail.

I think it is rather poignant that this happened to newer, less experienced players so that they understand the importance of awareness. This will aid them in life... because we all know how sportsman-like and fair life can be at all times. Well done Chris... sure its a cheap stupid win... but it was not your fault that you were not oblivious.

Whoever is giving Chris grief needs to jerk a knot in it and start skipping their weekly meeting at the "There but for the grace of God" Society.... It had better be more for the sake of hearing their own voice and feeling like their opinion matters, because this is PLAINLY no fault of Chris in any fashion.

/Rant

Lesh
 
If it was discovered early on then he can mark his game ( if he was playing me) but 4-5 games down the road then that's your mistake.
 
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Chris is in the right here. Going to sleep in the middle of a match occurs in many forms, and it has consequences, just as it should.
 
Gosh, I have read about all of this, and I'm really surprised that anyone would say anything negative about Chris. I don't know Greg or Chris.

I have tried to stay out of this, but I can't stand it any more.

I learned early in my "pool career" that if you don't mark a game, and you don't say something immediately (within the next rack (or even right after the break)), you don't get to go back and change it.

When players are keeping score for themselves, which is nearly all the time in the pool world, I think this should be a written rule (but I know it isn't yet).

Personally, I absolutely play a different style of aggression/defense depending on how the score is.

If this information would have come up immediately, and Chris still wouldn't give Greg the game, then yes, that would be wrong. But that's not what happened.

If I'm playing a match with you and you suddenly tell me that four or five games ago, you forgot to mark a score, then I'm sorry for your loss, but that's just too bad. It's too late for a correction. The dynamics of the game have changed by that point.

It was a tough situation, for sure. A tragedy, even. But that's where the story ends.

It was very unfortunate, but Greg (like any of us that have made that same mistake) will know next time to mark his own score and double check it before each new game.

When I play, I have learned to mark my score as soon as I win each game. Before I rack, before I fetch balls, before I grab my break cue. I mark my score immediately. I also watch the score when my opponent wins. If he or she doesn't mark the score immediately, I wait until they do. And if they forget, I tell them then and there to mark their score.

Jaden, I can understand where you're coming from, but a missed score affects all of the games after it, especially if either player gets to the hill.

Here's what we should learn from this:

MARK YOUR SCORE.

If you forget to mark your score, notify the opponent immediately. If you didn't notice immediately, then it's just too late.

Honestly and truthfully, if I had made the same mistake, I would have just let it go. I would never have even bothered to go to the TD.

Players must pay attention to the score, just as much as they pay attention to each game played and each ball hit.

I sincerely hope that the rules are amended to clarify that both players are responsible for keeping score. If there is a disagreement, it should be handled BEFORE the next rack.

-Blake
 
If memory serves me correctly, the same thing happened at the U.S. Open 9-Ball Championship last October. I think it was between Van-Van Corteza and Niels Feijen. Van-Van forgot to score a game and had not realized it.

According to the rules at the Open, if Van-Van doesn't score the game himself by moving the bead on his side, he doesn't get credit for it. And poor Van-Van forgot to move the bead.

It was a tight race to the end. Even though Van-Van had already won, if only he had scored the game.

As it turned out, Van-Van won the match, but it could have easily gone the other way in to Niels' favor. If that had happened, Van-Van would have been sick to learn after the fact that he had already won the match but didn't add the score to his side.
 
This is getting tiresome...

This is getting tiresome so it will be my last post on the matter, whoever wants to get the last word in, go ahead.

This whole, you snooze you lose, attitude is pathetic and shows the content of any of those who hold this view's character.

If you lose, you lose. How is that determined? By the first person to get to the requisite number of games. That some of you think that you should take advantage of someone's misfortune is a showcase of how degenerative pool and society has become.

"But rules are rules..." I say, but right is right. If you're not the first person to get the requisite number of games, then concede that you lost the match.

Not to even mention that there is no rule to govern this situation.

We can argue till we're blue in the face, but one side is virtuous and one side is selfish. That's the final truth of the matter.

I will always encourage others to be as virtuous as they can bring themselves to be, you go ahead and encourage them to take advantage of people at every turn. When they listen to you, we can all smile as our sport gets flushed down the toilet further than it already has.

After all looking out for number one has done so much for the sport up till now, so why encourage change.

Jaden
 
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Jaden said:
This is getting tiresome so it will be my last post on the matter, whoever wants to get the last word in, go ahead.

This whole, you snooze you lose, attitude is pathetic and shows the content of any of those who hold this view's character.

If you lose, you lose. How is that determined? By the first person to get to the requisite number of games. That some of you think that you should take advantage of someone's misfortune is a showcase of how degenerative pool and society has become.

"But rules are rules..." I say, but right is right. If you're not the first person to get the requisite number of games, then concede that you lost the match.

Not to even mention that there is no rule to govern this situation.

We can argue till we're blue in the face, but one side is virtuous and one side is selfish. That's the final truth of the matter.

I will always encourage others to be as virtuous as they can bring themselves to be, you go ahead and encourage them to take advantage of people at every turn. When they listen to you, we can all smile as our sport gets flushed down the toilet further than it already has.

After all looking out for number one has done so much for the sport up till now, so why encourage change.

Jaden
Click to expand...

I guess us lowlife cheaters should hail to your opinion. This isn't like other sports where others score for you, and if the crowd hadn't offered there opinion which isn't allowed in other sports during play this wouldn't even be discussed. I'm gona go back to the action room cause I'm not intelligent enough to be in the main forum.

Oh and by the way in golf if a player is 11 under and wins the tournament, but turns in a scorecard that shows 10 under guess what. His mommy doesn't get to tell him he's 11 under he gets disqualified for turning in a scorecard that helped his opponent. So case in point when playing a keep your own score sport you better keep the right one.
 
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Jaden said:
This is getting tiresome so it will be my last post on the matter, whoever wants to get the last word in, go ahead.

This whole, you snooze you lose, attitude is pathetic and shows the content of any of those who hold this view's character.

If you lose, you lose. How is that determined? By the first person to get to the requisite number of games. That some of you think that you should take advantage of someone's misfortune is a showcase of how degenerative pool and society has become.

"But rules are rules..." I say, but right is right. If you're not the first person to get the requisite number of games, then concede that you lost the match.

Not to even mention that there is no rule to govern this situation.

We can argue till we're blue in the face, but one side is virtuous and one side is selfish. That's the final truth of the matter.

I will always encourage others to be as virtuous as they can bring themselves to be, you go ahead and encourage them to take advantage of people at every turn. When they listen to you, we can all smile as our sport gets flushed down the toilet further than it already has.

After all looking out for number one has done so much for the sport up till now, so why encourage change.

Jaden
Click to expand...

It's not just our sport, this kind of thing happens in every sport, players saying they caught the ball, they were in bounds, etc.
I agree with you 100% about right is right, and there is no way I could take the win at ANY age if I knew FOR SURE a game was missed.
This was an unfortunate situation, but I don't think it warrants the attention it's getting, we've all made many mistakes in our lives and we learn from them. Sounds like both these guys learned a lesson and will learn from it.
The lesson learned from doing the right thing is much more valuable than the lesson learned from forgetting to mark a game, at least that's the way I see it.
Jason
 
I think what the kid really learned was a valuable lesson about the game of pool and some of its "fans"...
 
from another thread...


Apology re post 20 - Today, 08:20 AM

After receiving criticism from some people I respect, I went back and reread my comment where I called Chris a POS. I was wrong for doing so and I apologize to Chris.

I was overly harsh and regardless of how strongly I feel about the issue my choice of words were inappropriate.

Joel
 
Unethical for Chris to accept the win??? IMO, no ...

PoolCueSickness said:
Director told you that the win was yours, would you have made A different decision???? Keeping in mind that the 16-year-old
kid was under a lot of stress at that point, he didn’t know Which end was up, he was getting advice from to many people, so he
Followed the advice of a professional pool player.
Click to expand...

I could see myself getting tripped up on what to do in a similar situation. The TD doesn't allow my opponents' earlier win, but I say to mark it up anyway and take the loss? Maybe I would but it's a tough call, even for an old worn out pool veteran like myself. For a 16 year old, an even tougher call.

Ethical teatment in this situation has been mentioned a lot. In this case, conceding the victory to Greg would've been a nice gesture, but I don't think Chris accepting the win is unethical.
 
Don't have a dog in the fight; don't know either one. I did watch it on the stream though. I was always taught that whatever you do, do it with class. If there was no doubt that the person had won I would have given it up to him. In this instance I think the grownups that gave the kid advice might have got lost in the gotta win mentality. Young good people such as this should be taught there is a way to way and a way to win with class. I don't think bad about either these guys; mistakes happen. Its what you do when you realize the mistake has happened that will determine what kind of person you will eventually become. I wish both of them good luck in anything they do.
 
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