Has the level of play peaked?

[JB Cases]

IMO it depends on which game your speaking of.Kinda of hard to dominate a game that's filled with a lot of lucky rolls.John B.

True but this then is what makes a record that much more impressive. For example the time Nick Varner won all or almost all the pro events in the USA one year.

Or the runs that Archer has had or Strickland has had in 9 ball. Winning big events as often and consistently as they did once upon a time exemplifies dominance doesn't it? In a game with so much luck they somehow outran the luck and managed to win much more than the other players.

 

[King T]

Good point, but?

Good point, you could make a argument for many guys when it comes to any one game, Nick in 8 Ball, ok..., Earl or Archer in 9 Ball, ok, But if the question is ALL AROUND BEST..., well there one guy and he still winning.

 

[Neil]

All the greatest players in history at their peak probably played about on the same level.
Will there ever be a player that will raise the bar to the next level. A player who will be considered to play above everyone that came before. Or has the game been played as good as it can?
And I bring this up after reading many threads on who was the best and there never seems to be a single player that gets all the votes. Maybe in straight pool it was Mosconi but so many played very close to his speed that he is even open for debate.
I'm talking about a player still to come that plays so far above the standard of great that everyone will agree that this is the best ever.

If things stay like they are in pool, I think that the level of play will remain about the same. If big money ever makes it into pool to where it is worth the effort, then I think that you will start to see real pool training from a young age, and then I think the level of play will increase. The knowledge "out there" today can shave many years off training, and make training much more valuable.

There's just no real incentive for the masses to spend the amount of time necessary to become the best. So you only get a small portion of the people out there even trying to be the best.

 

[CreeDo]

I've heard it argued that when certain guys in the last generation were just dominating everyone in sight, it wasn't because they had special skills that today's players don't. It's because the rest of the field was just weaker.

Now the overall level of play is higher, possibly because knowledge spreads so much more easily... so one player will never dominate again like greenleaf or earl or whoever.

Not sure if that's true. But I've never seen a video of the legends doing stuff that makes me think "huh, players today can't/don't do that." If anything, it's the other way around.

I think if we ever see a player rise above the rest, it will be in some way related to figuring out the equipment. Around the same time as the magic rack's rise in popularity, we're seeing players with a deep understanding of the rack and the break, and exploiting that knowledge to beat other guys who shoot just as straight (e.g. SVB and his recent US Open win).

If we ever reach a point where everyone is shooting on, say, a diamond 9ft with simonis and consistent rails and consistent pocket size... maybe we'll see guys kicking balls straight in the hole or making full table banks routinely. When the equipment becomes consistent and predictable, so do those shots that currently would be considered flyers.

 

[Mitchxout]

If things stay like they are in pool, I think that the level of play will remain about the same. If big money ever makes it into pool to where it is worth the effort, then I think that you will start to see real pool training from a young age, and then I think the level of play will increase. The knowledge "out there" today can shave many years off training, and make training much more valuable.

There's just no real incentive for the masses to spend the amount of time necessary to become the best. So you only get a small portion of the people out there even trying to be the best.

This is the sad truth about pool in the US. It's safe to say the level of pool in the US has declined.

 

[porper-sig]

I have a different take on it. I dont think anyone has ever domiated pool like Efren. All the champions have had there day, but no one has EVER COME CLOSE TO Eferns total dominance of all disciplines.

He has a Campionship in every game but banks! Not one Championship, but multiple, No one else can say that. 8 Ball, 9 Ball, 10 Ball, One Pocket. 14.1, Rotation, Balk Line and has played all over the world, not just in the USA.

Hands down, he's the best all around player ever!

Appleton's resume is still in progress. He may get there me thinks..

 

[Ratta]

All the greatest players in history at their peak probably played about on the same level.
Will there ever be a player that will raise the bar to the next level. A player who will be considered to play above everyone that came before. Or has the game been played as good as it can?
And I bring this up after reading many threads on who was the best and there never seems to be a single player that gets all the votes. Maybe in straight pool it was Mosconi but so many played very close to his speed that he is even open for debate.
I'm talking about a player still to come that plays so far above the standard of great that everyone will agree that this is the best ever.

Well,
good question-- i am here with Earl s opinion. To make the game for the professionals more difficult. So that the REALLY better player can benefit from his better technique and stroke. 10 ft tables with tough pockets are a great way. The quality of the material was great.

Then i am sure, there would be again some guy, who are a bit better than the others.
nowadays it s too easy- it cannot be, that an A Player on a good day can beat a worldchampion.

Furthermore the raced must be longer. And a player who worked like an idiot on his break-and is here better than another guy, should also be able to benefit from it.


just my 2 cts.

lg
Ingo

 

[measureman]

this has turned somewhat into a who was the best thread.
Let me restate my question. If all the best players in history were 1950 Fords going down a highway at about the same speed would some day 2012 Corvette pass them by at 150 MPH and then create a giant leap in skill level? Someone who would play at a level never seen or imagined before? Or is it just going to be a small increase in ability over time like most sports or games.

 

[Celtic]

Will there ever be a player that will raise the bar to the next level. A player who will be considered to play above everyone that came before. Or has the game been played as good as it can?

It cannot happen with todays equipment and rotation pool. Rotation pool has for the most part has seen it's peak level of play reached by quite afew top pros. SVB, Earl, Efren, Ralph, Orcullo, Yang, Wu, Alex, Appleton, Mika, ect... there are alot of guys that at times in their lives were about as good as one can be at rotation pool. On any given dayu with them playing each other it is not skill that sets things apart but the slight rolls of the game, success on the break, not having the cueball kicked into a pocket, having a shot on the 1-ball after the break, the little things like that tend to decide the winner and noone can rise above the pack when luck becomes that key factor on a win and not skill.

The 10-foot tables would have helped, pool "should" have shifted to them IMO. Instead they were used for a couple events, a majority of the pros liked them, they made the game harder and things started to become clear, a lot of the fans had interest in them and then they were simply dropped from the radar.

Tighter pockets on the 10-foots would have helped as well, 4 1/8th inch pockets on them would have helped alot in creating seperation between the various world class pros, seeing who the real top end guys are when it comes to ability to pot balls and play shape.

I also think that 8-ball, being a less "luck" infused game then rotational pool would have helped. Luck does not factor in as much off the break in open off the break 8-ball as it does in rotational pool, it gives players more options and that is where the difficulty of a tight cut 10-foot table would create the true environment where skill would prevail instead of rolls.

You spend a couple years playing 8-ball on 10-foots with 4 inch pockets or so and you will know who the best player in the world is after that 2 year stretch, there will be no question as to whether it is SVB or Orcullo or Chang or Li or Appleton or... You will know. You will also have pool in a position such that if a "Tiger Woods" of pool ever DOES appear they will be able to climb the ranks and become the #1 player in the world without a doubt and be an honest favorite to beat anyone in the world in any given match, instead of today where we have 5 or 10 guys who are in effect coin flips against each other in every match they play.

Noone can ever dominate the World Coin Flipping Championships.

 

[the kidd]

Parden me for butting in with my 2 cents.

There will always bee the element of luck but the only way to "Overcome" is to require more games to win. The longer the contest the less luck enters into the match. The 10' tables (which I played on most of the time) actually give one more breathing room to negotiate. Of course the long shots can be longer. The larger pockets equalize the table size. Thanks for the time.

It cannot happen with todays equipment and rotation pool. Rotation pool has for the most part has seen it's peak level of play reached by quite afew top pros. SVB, Earl, Efren, Ralph, Orcullo, Yang, Wu, Alex, Appleton, Mika, ect... there are alot of guys that at times in their lives were about as good as one can be at rotation pool. On any given dayu with them playing each other it is not skill that sets things apart but the slight rolls of the game, success on the break, not having the cueball kicked into a pocket, having a shot on the 1-ball after the break, the little things like that tend to decide the winner and noone can rise above the pack when luck becomes that key factor on a win and not skill.

The 10-foot tables would have helped, pool "should" have shifted to them IMO. Instead they were used for a couple events, a majority of the pros liked them, they made the game harder and things started to become clear, a lot of the fans had interest in them and then they were simply dropped from the radar.

Tighter pockets on the 10-foots would have helped as well, 4 1/8th inch pockets on them would have helped alot in creating seperation between the various world class pros, seeing who the real top end guys are when it comes to ability to pot balls and play shape.

I also think that 8-ball, being a less "luck" infused game then rotational pool would have helped. Luck does not factor in as much off the break in open off the break 8-ball as it does in rotational pool, it gives players more options and that is where the difficulty of a tight cut 10-foot table would create the true environment where skill would prevail instead of rolls.

 

[Celtic]

There will always bee the element of luck but the only way to "Overcome" is to require more games to win. The longer the contest the less luck enters into the match.

That is not the only way. Tougher tables are also a good way to eliminate the luck factor.

There are alot of people that have a chance to beat a top ranked pro in a race to 5 playing 8-ball on a Valley Bar Box. There are very few players in the world that would beat a top ranked pro playing a race to 5 in 8-ball on a 6x12 Riley snooker table. As the table gets tougher the number of games that need to be played to make the luck become less of a factor is reduced.

You need to have a race to 30 to kill the luck factor on a loose valley barbox with SVB playing some decent shortstop because the decent shortstop if they break well can string a 7-pack on that table. SVB playing that same shortstop on the TAR 9-foot in 8-ball only needs a race to 13 to pretty much assure victory because the shortstop can no longer play well enough to run multiple racks and keep SVB in his seat, both players now get to the table more and with the added innings that each player gets the higher level of skill begins to prevail.

This is with 8-ball though, on a tough table in rotational pool the tight table can sometimes mess up the results because of misses late in the games where the weaker opponent gets easy backdoor wins. With a tight enough table in 8-ball no matter what the guy still has to shoot his 7 balls down and cannot bunt in a jawed 9-ball.

 

[jay helfert]

I for one do not think the elvel of play has peaked by any means. As much as I admire the all time greats like Lassiter, Worst, Balsis and Crane, I think today's players may be superior to them. Probably the best all around player from that era was Eddie Kelly. He would still (in his prime) be a formidable opponent for anyone playing today in an all around format.

The first player I saw who absolutely raised the bar was Efren. When he showed up in Houston he was playing a game that we were unfamiliar with. He was maybe two speeds above all the best American players. But we quickly caught up, within a year it became difficult for Efren to win a 9-Ball tourney.

Then Parica showed up and he just walloped everyone he played, clearly a superior money player at 9-Ball or Ten Ball. In the meantime Earl was playing one speed above the world in 9-Ball tournaments. Then Efren learned to play One Pocket and once again he demonstrated a clear superiority to anyone else at this game.

At Banks, Taylor and then Bugs played in another league then anyone else, and there were always many good bankers, like Truman, Donny Anderson, Tony Fargo, Fusco, Youngblood and Varner.

Presently Shane has once again raised the bar in 9-Ball and Ten Ball, at his best a speed above the pack. So in conclusion it can and does happen that a player comes along and raises the bar. Players like Shane and Dennis O. still work hard on their games, always looking to improve. Landon could be next! He has shown a composure that is rare even in veteran players. How far he will progress is anyone's guess. That is kind of up to him and his motivation.

 

[measureman]

I for one do not think the elvel of play has peaked by any means. As much as I admire the all time greats like Lassiter, Worst, Balsis and Crane, I think today's players may be superior to them. Probably the best all around player from that era was Eddie Kelly. He would still (in his prime) be a formidable opponent for anyone playing today in an all around format.

The first player I saw who absolutely raised the bar was Efren. When he showed up in Houston he was playing a game that we were unfamiliar with. He was maybe two speeds above all the best American players. But we quickly caught up, within a year it became difficult for Efren to win a 9-Ball tourney.

Then Parica showed up and he just walloped everyone he played, clearly a superior money player at 9-Ball or Ten Ball. In the meantime Earl was playing one speed above the world in 9-Ball tournaments. Then Efren learned to play One Pocket and once again he demonstrated a clear superiority to anyone else at this game.

At Banks, Taylor and then Bugs played in another league then anyone else, and there were always many good bankers, like Truman, Donny Anderson, Tony Fargo, Fusco, Youngblood and Varner.

Presently Shane has once again raised the bar in 9-Ball and Ten Ball, at his best a speed above the pack. So in conclusion it can and does happen that a player comes along and raises the bar. Players like Shane and Dennis O. still work hard on their games, always looking to improve. Landon could be next! He has shown a composure that is rare even in veteran players. How far he will progress is anyone's guess. That is kind of up to him and his motivation.

Jay understood my question and explained it using existing players.
But can someone come along that is twice as good as anyone that ever lived? Someone that just can't be beat because they play so much better then anyone? I don't think so but it was a question that justed came to me.
For the golfers it would be a player that shoots every round in the 50s. Just light speeds above everyone else.

 

[CreeDo]

Jay understood my question and explained it using existing players.
But can someone come along that is twice as good as anyone that ever lived? Someone that just can't be beat because they play so much better then anyone? I don't think so but it was a question that justed came to me.
For the golfers it would be a player that shoots every round in the 50s. Just light speeds above everyone else.

just thinking out loud...

We've had players who play "a speed or two above", roughly speaking, in probably every popular sport/game/athletic competition. Golf, pool, football, swimming, biking, etc.

But "twice as good", has that ever happened in any sport, anywhere?

Maybe in games that don't rely on physical abilities... Garry Kasparov was #1 chess player in the world for 255 months, right up to the day he retired. But in a game like that, where there's little luck, you don't need to play 100% better than the rest of the field. 10% better might be enough.

It seems to me that in a game where one guy doesn't even get to play frequently, and luck is a real factor, you by definition can't have someone play twice as good as the rest. Which is what Celtic was getting at, I think.

What would that look like, a guy who shoots 5 speeds above the current champions? I guess the simple answer is, he never misses. He'll try thin cuts and banks where anyone else would just duck... and he makes the shot, every time, on any equipment. You literally can't let him see a ball.

 

[Neil]

Jay understood my question and explained it using existing players.
But can someone come along that is twice as good as anyone that ever lived? Someone that just can't be beat because they play so much better then anyone? I don't think so but it was a question that justed came to me.
For the golfers it would be a player that shoots every round in the 50s. Just light speeds above everyone else.

I alluded to it earlier, but essesentially, right now, the pros are batting around the upper 8's to low 9's on accu-stat ratings to be playing really great. There is a little improvement to make there in consistency, which equates to a larger skill difference than one thinks. Hence, domination.

Add into that, look how often todays players "duck". Even on makeable shots. That can get cut down, banking can improve, kicking can improve, SVB, CD and DM showed breaking can improve. So, you end up with several areas that can be improved upon.

If one were to spend more time in those areas, perfecting them, instead of playing golf or riding cycles, or just gambling, they would improve and then dominate.

I think it was John that stated an A player should not be able to beat a world champion at any time. I disagree with that. An A player can do anything a world champ can. They just aren't as consistent, and will make more mistakes. Those few mistakes can easily equate to domination. But, if the A player is "on" on a particular day, he will make less mistakes, and then he is very competitive with anyone.

Many say that Efren dominated. Why is that? It's simply because he studied the game, and then practiced what he saw others do until he could do the same thing reliably. Others call them crazy shots, or sucker shots. They are only crazy or sucker shots to those that haven't practiced them enough to be reliable in shooting them.

Not often you see the pros run out a set. Yet, they should be doing it much more often than they currently are. So, there is room for improvement.

 

[sjm]

Jay understood my question and explained it using existing players.
But can someone come along that is twice as good as anyone that ever lived? Someone that just can't be beat because they play so much better then anyone? I don't think so but it was a question that justed came to me.
For the golfers it would be a player that shoots every round in the 50s. Just light speeds above everyone else.

No, there won't be a Wayne Gretzky in pool. For the sports historians, the greatest ever scoring total in HHL history when Gretzky entered the National Hockey League hockey was 152, accomplished by Phil Esposito of the Boston Bruins. Gretzky exceeded this scoring total in seven of his first eight seasons, and his scoring records are going to last a long, long time.

Still, in pool, the bar can be raised by somebody who is just a little better than his predecessors, and this seems highly likely to occur down the road. A pool player twice as good as all who came before him? Not anytime soon, but down the road, it's at least possible.