Head coming up after the "set"....a bad thing?
- Thread starter mattman
- Start date
shakes said:
shakes...Yes, I teach the same philosophy as Randy. We teach together frequently, and both learn new things from each other every time we do! Not sure if your comment about lessons was to Pinocchio, but he has not taken any lessons from me. I just know him from DCC. I do come through MS every now and then, and would be happy to work some with you the next time I'm in your area. PM with your name and phone #, so I can put you in my database, and contact when I know I'll definitely be there.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
mattman said:
Whitewolf: "and also due to your head pointed to much towards the cueball".
Now you know what to work on. See the pic of Alex - this is exactly what I was trying to convey.
And one more thing about Randy's pool school if this is true about him teaching a student to bob his head down and up, and then keeping it still for the finale...........This is completely absurd!!!!!!!!! Your inner ear has that balancing juice in it and if you are nodding you are upsetting the juice and your balance. I know Randy learns everything he can scientifically, and I really praise him for this, but I think it behoove Randy to study the inner ear. JMHO.
Think about it and the Quite Eye theory. How in the hell can your eye get a fix on something if your head has been bobbing up and down?!! Your head and eye postion should be set from the get go, not moving and shifting because of a bunch of irrational logic.
I'd like to comment on this if I may. I think its important to be comfortable and that may differ for different people.
With that said, I feel that far too many players take for granted just how ABSOLUTELY IMPERATIVE it is to 1. be sure your last practice stroke is dead accurate, and 2. have your actual stroke be IDENTICAL to your last practice stroke.
Words don't seem to be able to embed the importance of this into many players.
I have seen lots of players with a wonderfully smooth flowing strokes but that stroke differs from the last practice stroke.
If in fact the your last practice stroke is accurate and right on, then is naturally stands to reason than ANYTHING that differs from it, MUST lead to an unsure result.
When I had my poolroom, I always tried to have players who ask my help in pocketing balls to focus on only moving elbow and down, and emulate your last practice stroke.
If you need to power the shot, then your practice strokes need to be more powerful as well. You can't slowly and softly practice stroke a shot that needs to be powered, and then let loose a harder actual stroke.
I don't know if I'm explaining the well, but what I want to get across is if you are accurate with your last practice stroke, and if you duplicate it EXACTLY on your actual stroke, the ball has to go in.
If it doesn't go in, your last practice stroke is either off, or your actual stoke has differed from it.
As you gain confidence and experience it all becomes second nature.
With that said, I feel that far too many players take for granted just how ABSOLUTELY IMPERATIVE it is to 1. be sure your last practice stroke is dead accurate, and 2. have your actual stroke be IDENTICAL to your last practice stroke.
Words don't seem to be able to embed the importance of this into many players.
I have seen lots of players with a wonderfully smooth flowing strokes but that stroke differs from the last practice stroke.
If in fact the your last practice stroke is accurate and right on, then is naturally stands to reason than ANYTHING that differs from it, MUST lead to an unsure result.
When I had my poolroom, I always tried to have players who ask my help in pocketing balls to focus on only moving elbow and down, and emulate your last practice stroke.
If you need to power the shot, then your practice strokes need to be more powerful as well. You can't slowly and softly practice stroke a shot that needs to be powered, and then let loose a harder actual stroke.
I don't know if I'm explaining the well, but what I want to get across is if you are accurate with your last practice stroke, and if you duplicate it EXACTLY on your actual stroke, the ball has to go in.
If it doesn't go in, your last practice stroke is either off, or your actual stoke has differed from it.
As you gain confidence and experience it all becomes second nature.
mattman said:
I don't know why teachers want the pause in the first place...
To me a pool stroke isn't made up of individual motions. It is one fluid motion. I think of it like a pendulum, back stroke becomes forward stroke. The more segmented any motion is, the more complex it is. Think of a golf swing or tennis swing. The back swing is just as important as the follow through, but you never see a professional player in golf, tennis, or pool stopping their stroke half-way through. They may have a slower, deliberate back swing/stroke, but they never actually let the motion pause. It is all about tempo...this allows it to become repeatable easier, and takes away time for doubt before execution.
In my experience, if I doubt the shot, I'll rattle it. If I stroke it confidently, I'll sink it or miss it completely. But at least I know I either did it right or wrong. The issue was with my original decision, not with my change of execution at the last instance.
JMHO,
Dave
iasaxman said:
Once again...you just don't know what you don't know! There are three very significant reasons why the pause at the CB happens. ALL players pause at the end of the backswing (it's how LONG they pause, from momentary to defined)...good ones do it on purpose! NJMHO!
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee said:Once again...you just don't know what you don't know! There are three very significant reasons why the pause at the CB happens. ALL players pause at the end of the backswing (it's how LONG they pause, from momentary to defined)...good ones do it on purpose! NJMHO!
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
That is part of the problem with not understanding human physiology. Starting a motion from a static point decreases the amount of accuracy since the tendons and ligaments are stretched. In order to maximize accuracy, the before-mentions tendons and ligaments need to remain in motion. An earlier post hit it on the head about the last practice stroke needs to be identical to the final stroke, but if you stop motion between them, there is much less chance for duplication.
What would I know, I only studied in a college physiology lab for five years in college working on repetitive motion vs static motion within dynamic movement execution such as golf, tennis, and throwing motions where pin-point accuracy can make the difference between the desired result and failure. Don't believe me, check any advanced Anatomy and Physiology textbook used by any accredited college in the world.
Again...JMHO
Dave
iasaxman said:
But it can't be a smooth continuous motion when it changes from one direction to the other. The change in direction destroys the fluidity and by definition there is no continuity. The pause has to be there and like Scott says it's either a very minute or clearly defined pause.
I find my forward stroke to be much more straight if I've made a defined pause and a deliberate final forward stroke.
JimS said:
ding ding ding!...Tell him what's he's won Johnny!
I find it interesting to note that even famed billiard author Robert Byrne admitted that in his book, Byrne's Standard Book of Pool & Billiards, his description of the stroke as being "one continuous motion" was definitively flawed, and that it was, in fact, two separate motions...one backward and one forward! He said, however, that due to the fact that he had sold over 100K copies he couldn't change it!
Oh yeah, and one more thing...iasaxman, what does this have to do with this thread?
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Last edited:
Scott Lee said:
Scott,
It is obvious that backward motion MUST stop before forward motion can begin. It is also obvious that the pool stroke MUST be a combination of 2 "static motions" because the backswing is propelled by different muscles than the foreswing. Those foreswing muscles must start from a stretched static position whether you pause a long or a short time.
To me, the "one continuous motion" is a MENTAL concept (not a physical one). I convince myself that the swing is one motion; even though it is not (as you so correctly pointed out) - I think it helps to think that way; it makes for a nice smooth transition from backswing to foreswing; and it seems to reduce tension. That can't be all bad. My "pause" is at the cue ball; before the stroke begins.
I also find it interesting that under pressure; I can often find a definite pause creeping into my stroke at the end of the backswing - an old habit borne of the desire to "steer" the ball in crucial situations. I definitely prefer the "one fluid motion" thought.
randyg said:
Thanks for the physiology...not physics lesson guys.
Try to make a static change in a pool stroke. The individual tendons and muscles in the shoulder, elbow, and wrist will "fire" in rapid succession between the back-stroke and the followthrough(motion has to start somewhere). I'm guessing that your definition of pause and my definition of motion are very similar. The pause you refer to, if I may ask...does it mean relaxing all muscles and tendons in that static position, or do you still keep the arm slightly tense holding your desired form?
I didn't mean to highjack this thread, but you are all refering to a static pause which would mean that all motion (kinetic or potention energy is lost.) has ceased. If that is the case, then everyone you refer to has the most awkward shot I've ever witnessed. If you are keeping tension in your muscles (even slight tension as you ready to follow-through), you are in fact in motion within the muscles even if you don't realize it.
I am glad that the BCA instructors are here to offer their opinions, but however you respond to this is moot as I won't take part any further since the supposed professional instructors are argueing a point they obviously aren't versed in. Granted, it would take someone who has studied advanced Anatomy and then clinical Physiology to prove the point adequitely. Any others out there?
Nice forums, but too many know-it-alls for me.
Thanks for the time and attention everyone.
Dave
Randy's right, you need to take a physics lesson. You mention kinetic and "potention" energy (I assume you mean "potential") but I don't think you know the difference.iasaxman said:
There's good advice here from Scott and Randy. You have neither paid attention to it nor understood it. You don't seriously think that someone's definition of a pause is the same as someone's definition of motion, do you? The two are mutually exclusive.
You said in an earlier post, "The back swing is just as important as the follow through, but you never see a professional player in golf, tennis, or pool stopping their stroke half-way through." I think maybe you should watch these sports a little more closely.
-djb <-- wonders who the real know-it-all is....