Heavy vs. Light Cues...

[Scott Lee]

Dakota Cues...No disrespect to your cuemakers, but Newton's Laws of Motion come into play here quite easily. The cue (18-20oz) is appx. 3 times the weight of the OB (6oz), creating a perfect mechanism for propelling the stick through the ball, with whatever swing speed you desire (even a break). Consequently, swung perfectly, the cue does not "bounce off" the CB...but merely completes it original trajectory (after passing through the area the CB was in), going back and forth, until it stops naturally. Again, the weight of the cue, and perfect timing, is the most accurate and efficient way to use the cuestick. A heavier cue does not change this concept...so it really becomes a matter of personal preference.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[ShootingArts]

truly an illustration

Scott,

This is truly an illustration of one of your favorite sayings, "you don't know what you don't know." Until you put in the time to be able to control a cue consistently with your muscles instead of the cue's weight you don't know which is better. No question which is quicker to learn, which is best is known to only a few who have went both routes.

Hu

gregoryg...Your friend was right, but for the wrong reason. In reality you WANT to let the weight of the cue, and timing, create the strokespeed. So, in the end, you want to let the cue do the work...not muscle! :grin:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[Scott Lee]

Hu...That's for sure. It's always great to see how students who have always 'muscled' the CB, learn to use just the cue. They get so much more "action", with so much less effort, when they learn how to let the cue do the work! Truth is, you can see even pro players who 'force' the CB successfully around the table too...so sometimes it's hard to "see" the difference! Like you said, it takes knowing both ways...

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott,

This is truly an illustration of one of your favorite sayings, "you don't know what you don't know." Until you put in the time to be able to control a cue consistently with your muscles instead of the cue's weight you don't know which is better. No question which is quicker to learn, which is best is known to only a few who have went both routes.

Hu

 

[Dakota Cues]

Dakota Cues...No disrespect to your cuemakers, but Newton's Laws of Motion come into play here quite easily. The cue (18-20oz) is appx. 3 times the weight of the OB (6oz), creating a perfect mechanism for propelling the stick through the ball, with whatever swing speed you desire (even a break). Consequently, swung perfectly, the cue does not "bounce off" the CB...but merely completes it original trajectory (after passing through the area the CB was in), going back and forth, until it stops naturally. Again, the weight of the cue, and perfect timing, is the most accurate and efficient way to use the cuestick. A heavier cue does not change this concept...so it really becomes a matter of personal preference.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

No disrespect to you, either, but you're thinking of this in the wrong way. Yes any cue heavier than an object ball will move a cb along. A lighter cue does not have as much force behind it though, and therefore will slow down FAR faster than a heavier cue using the same stroke/speed/timing.

Let me make this a little easier to understand. Let's say that I throw a wiffle ball AND a 15 lb. bowling ball at you at EXACTLY the same speed. Which would you rather stand in front of? Now do you see where your theory is off? You are hit at exactly the same speed, so the only differnce in what happens to you (or in this case, how badly you get hurt) is the fact that one object is dramatically heavier than the other, and therefore, has more power behind it even if it is traveling at the same speed.

While that was an extreme example, it does show that, in relation to a relatively light (~6 oz. cue ball), a small difference in the weight of what's hitting it can make a big difference in what happens to it after it's hit.

 

[ShootingArts]

guess I'm a control freak

Hu...That's for sure. It's always great to see how students who have always 'muscled' the CB, learn to use just the cue. They get so much more "action", with so much less effort, when they learn how to let the cue do the work! Truth is, you can see even pro players who 'force' the CB successfully around the table too...so sometimes it's hard to "see" the difference! Like you said, it takes knowing both ways...

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott,

I guess I'm a control freak but I'll choose controlling the stick over letting it control me. The secret to over ten years of very successful hustling was that in that entire time there was only a handful of players that were positive rather I was good or lucky. Cue ball control was the secret of confusion to the enemy, um, other player!

Hu

 

[bobalouiecda]

I agree more with Scott Lee and find most of what Dakota Cues to be off base. Rather than compare a bowling ball and a wiffle ball, how about comparing a 19 pound bowling ball and a 17 pound bowling ball. First,I would not like to be hit by either thrown at the same speed, but whoever throws the lighter ball will impart as much force due to more velocity. Since I was not a Physics major, let me explain by my personal experience.

In my younger years I was tutored by a man that to this day, over 40 years later, could stroke whitey as well as any player I have seen in person and on video. One thing he imparted to me to help explain his shooting power and stroke was to shoot with a lighter and well balanced cue. He shot with a 17 oz cue. The cue tip was between 12 to 12.5 MM if I remember correctly and a very hard tip. He sold me his player and I learned how to stroke the ball.
Suffice to say I would have challenged anyone then to shoot more powerfully with a heavier cue and also my ball control was enhanced greatly with the lighter cue. The cue became like an extension of my body. The feedback was amazing.

Just my opinion. I appreciate reading others ideas.

 

[ShootingArts]

this is already proven

Scott, Dakota,

This is one there is no need to debate. I forget if the video is with Bob Jewett's stuff or Dr. Dave's but a little searching will turn up the slow motion video and graphs generated by test instrumentation.

Working from memory here but in no instance did anyone stroke smoothly through the cue ball. The Shooters were Bob Jewett(I believe) Dr Dave and another man named Dave. The speed of the stick was sharply reduced at impact. Interestingly, "Dave" had a substantially lesser reduction in speed. I'll defer to your opinion after you watch the video Scott but I think you will say he muscles the cue ball.

Hu

No disrespect to you, either, but you're thinking of this in the wrong way. Yes any cue heavier than an object ball will move a cb along. A lighter cue does not have as much force behind it though, and therefore will slow down FAR faster than a heavier cue using the same stroke/speed/timing.

Let me make this a little easier to understand. Let's say that I throw a wiffle ball AND a 15 lb. bowling ball at you at EXACTLY the same speed. Which would you rather stand in front of? Now do you see where your theory is off? You are hit at exactly the same speed, so the only differnce in what happens to you (or in this case, how badly you get hurt) is the fact that one object is dramatically heavier than the other, and therefore, has more power behind it even if it is traveling at the same speed.

While that was an extreme example, it does show that, in relation to a relatively light (~6 oz. cue ball), a small difference in the weight of what's hitting it can make a big difference in what happens to it after it's hit.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

I'm finding this discussion actually quite interesting. What I'm getting from it is that, assuming you are a decent player, it really is a matter of personal preference, much like whether one prefers a soft or hard tip. It has a lot to do with what feels good, and you can't get much more personal than that. It also might just be partly a function of style, much like it's said that a soft tip lends itself well to the player that uses a lot of spin while a harder tip is for the player that plays more of a control/finesse game. Neither is right or wrong, just personal preference. Then again, some guys who play a very controlled game use a soft tip, so what do I know.

It sounds like some of the talk in favor of a lighter cue is that because it does less of the work it is better at forcing or teaching the player to develop a proper stroke and maybe that is true, I don't know, but let's assume it's true. But if you are fairly proficient at the game I wouldn't think developing a stroke is an issue. That doesn't mean that if you have a good stroke you should use a heavier cue, it just means that you don't need the lighter cue to learn how to stroke the ball and therefore can go with whatever feels right for you. And if you learned the game with a lighter cue than it is perfectly reasonable that this is what you would prefer.

But the other major advantage I've read here about the lighter cue is that it is easier to control the cue ball than with a heavier stick. Perhaps that is true too, again I don't know. But assuming it is you could make much the same argument in favor of a heavier stick that is made for the light stick in the case of learning a proper stroke, mainly that since it is so much easier to control the cue ball with a lighter stick then one should use a heavier stick to truly learn cue ball control. I'm not saying that is right, but the argument can be made.

I personally use a heavier cue, 21 oz. I also prefer, in any weight, a butt bias to the balance point. I've tried all weights and balance points over the years, and can both spin and control the cue ball with most of them (with time to adjust), but I just prefer the feedback that feeling the weight of the cue in my stroke hand gives me. As I inferred from post (#25) Shooting Arts feels a heavier cue is controlling him rather than the other way around. I completely understand someone feeling that way but for me the sensation just so happens to be the opposite. I don't feel I have as much control with a lighter cue because I don't feel it as well. With a heavier or butt bias balanced stick I am better able to feel exactly where the stick is and what it is doing at all points in the stroke. Not right or wrong, just right or wrong for the individual.

Different strokes for different folks, so to speak. :thumbup:

DogsPlayingPool

 

["T"]

I was hoping to see a correlation in the type's of games lighter cue users played versus heavier cue users.

It doesn't make a lot of sense to play one pocket with a tree trunk.

 

[ShootingArts]

that would be a good poll

I was hoping to see a correlation in the type's of games lighter cue users played versus heavier cue users.

It doesn't make a lot of sense to play one pocket with a tree trunk.

My thought is that straight pool players would favor slightly lighter sticks and nine ball players would favor heavier sticks that make it easier to travel the cue ball but that is just my guess. Hard to say about one pocket players. Until it becomes an uptable game I would favor a very light stick for myself. A couple ounces heavier might make long banks easier.

Hu

 

[Dakota Cues]

I agree more with Scott Lee and find most of what Dakota Cues to be off base. Rather than compare a bowling ball and a wiffle ball, how about comparing a 19 pound bowling ball and a 17 pound bowling ball.

My example did that in an extreme way. By that I mean if there is a difference in force transmitted by 2 objects that are extremely different in weight (wiffle ball vs. bowling ball), then there is STILL a difference in force transmitted between 2 objects that are closer in weight. That difference is just smaller.

but whoever throws the lighter ball will impart as much force due to more velocity.

This is where you are off - In my example I said "At the same speed". In your example you are saying you can move a lighter object faster than a heavier one. This is true, but it is not what we're talking about here. We're talking about 2 objects (a heavy cue and a light cue) moving at EXACTLY THE SAME SPEED OR VELOCITY, but transmitting different amounts of force because of the weight behind it. This is also why break cues are lighter than playing cues. Mike Sigel called this generation of power "Club head speed" in one of his videos.

A faster object can impart a lot of force due to it's velocity. Think of a bullet leaving a gun. That's your example. What we're talking about here is THROWING a bullet or a bowling ball at a person at a much slower (but exactly the same) speed. Which is going to hurt more?


In other words, the slower the speed, the more an object's mass or weight comes into play in it's overall power.


The faster the speed, the more an object's velocity becomes part of the power generated.

In my younger years I was tutored by a man that to this day, over 40 years later, could stroke whitey as well as any player I have seen in person and on video. One thing he imparted to me to help explain his shooting power and stroke was to shoot with a lighter and well balanced cue.

Again, this is an example of being able to stroke a lighter cue harder/faster than a heavier cue. We are talking about stroking the cue at the same speed, and getting different results with a heavier cue vs. a lighter cue.

Make sense now?

 

[bobalouiecda]

My example did that in an extreme way. By that I mean if there is a difference in force transmitted by 2 objects that are extremely different in weight (wiffle ball vs. bowling ball), then there is STILL a difference in force transmitted between 2 objects that are closer in weight. That difference is just smaller.









Again, this is an example of being able to stroke a lighter cue harder/faster than a heavier cue. We are talking about stroking the cue at the same speed, and getting different results with a heavier cue vs. a lighter cue.

Make sense now?

Scott, In theory everything you say makes sense logically, but it is hard for me to understand that as a strong young man studying the martial arts, that one or two ounces of weight could slow the speed of my stroke at all. The difference of the speed would be so insignificant.
So assume with a super maximum stroke with a 17 oz cue and the exact same stroke and speed with a 19 oz cue, it would also make sense that the cue ball would respond more aggressively using the heavier cue. What I was saying was that it does not. Absolutely.

 

[skor]

18 to 18.7 for me

 

[tigerseye]

I met a guy who has a 28 oz. breaking cue... I asked him if it could be used as a bat also...lol=)

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

My Player weight between 18.4, and 19.0 OUNCES, and I have a Break Q that is 16.7 OUNCES. ..............That does a wonderful job.

 

[ShootingArts]

Still some around

I met a guy who has a 28 oz. breaking cue... I asked him if it could be used as a bat also...lol=)

Still some heavy break cues around and some people with monster breaks using them. A lot like the hard tip/soft tip debates, it may be that the two cues accomplish the same goals for different reasons.

There is no getting around "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction." Since bullets were talked about above, I'll point out that if we built a gun that weighed the same or even five times what a rifle bullet weighed and the stock was just a round rod the same size as a rifle bullet, we would drive it right through our shoulder when we shot. Since the rifle weighs many times what the bullet weighs both the speed and amount of the reaction is dampened.

It should be obvious that the same is true of pool cues. The heavier the pool cue the less it will slow down when hitting the cue ball and the more speed it will transfer to the cue ball. A 28 ounce cue with a similar tip and shaft moving at the same speed would make the cue ball go faster than a 17 ounce break cue that was otherwise identical. If we can create enough more speed for the light cue then that offsets the disadvantage of not transferring as much of it's speed to the cue ball. Since there is never 100% transfer cue weight is always a trade off.

Hu

 

[Dakota Cues]

So assume with a super maximum stroke with a 17 oz cue and the exact same stroke and speed with a 19 oz cue, it would also make sense that the cue ball would respond more aggressively using the heavier cue. What I was saying was that it does not. Absolutely.

And again, I've just shown you that it would... absolutely

 

[whitewolf]

i have had the pleasure of using a couple of different cues. i currently use a searing that is 18.7 oz. but has awesome balance. i think the balance point is what matters. my friend bill had a searing that was over 20oz. but truthfully couldnt tell the difference because the balance points seem to zero out the weight...JS

Ditto that.

Mike Capone just made me a 20oz forward weighted cue (20") and everyone thinks it is 17 or 18 ounces.

Personally, I think it is a myth that one can control the ball better with a lighter cue. Just look at Efren. I thought I read somewhere that his cue exceeds 20oz, but I am not sure.

 

[Shaft]

Respectfully, Hu and Dakota Cues are mistaken

Sorry guys, but the one constant here is the energy input from the arm muscles.

It is true that for two cues traveling at the same speed, a heavy cue has more energy, but that's not what is really happening when you ask for this comparison.

For the same force applied over the same distance (arm muscle energy input), a light cue will have a faster speed than a heavy cue, and they both will have the same kinetic energy. A lighter cue transfers a higher percentage of that energy to the CB. Mechanical engineers know this as the coefficient of restitution.

The closer in mass two colliding objects are, the more efficient the energy transfer is. You can see this on the table with a straight-in stop shot: the OB gets (nearly) 100% of the CB energy because they have the same mass.

 

[Dakota Cues]

For the same force applied over the same distance (arm muscle energy input), a light cue will have a faster speed than a heavy cue, and they both will have the same kinetic energy. A lighter cue transfers a higher percentage of that energy to the CB.

This is true, and this discussion has strayed a bit because I was trying to explain one subject that was related, but not on point.

What I was looking to discuss in this light cue vs. heavy cue discussion has more to do with what happens after the cue ball is hit, than what happens at the moment it is hit.

A lighter cue, while it may be transferring a higher percentage of energy, will still slow down dramatically faster than a heavier one. It has less energy available for follow through, and that effects certain things like english/draw/etc. I believe this is also what Dennis was talking about with his term "Bouncing off effect" - A lighter cue will transfer the energy so quickly to the cue ball (just like your stop shot example), that, after impact, it is going slower than the cue ball, and thus is no longer in contact with it. That's also why someone using a ligher cue needs a different grip/stroke to get the same action on the cue ball.


A heavier cue will have more momentum and "Follow through". Since it's not decelerating as much, it stays in contact with the cb longer. This also has an effect on english/draw/etc, and is why someone using a heavier cue can grip the cue lighter and have the cue's momentum aid the follow through of the stroke. Again, I'm not sure if I'm expaining this phenomenon correctly, but I hope you get my point.


I think what we're getting at here is what you said above. Both cues have the same kinetic energy. A heavier cue has more momentum though, and can transfer that through the cue ball instead of just stopping at the cue ball. Kind of like the wiffle ball vs. bowling ball theory. So what I've been saying (and obviously not doing a good job of it!) is that the momentum of a heavier cue is greater (with the same force), so a heavier cue does more work.

That is what I intended the discussion to be about. Sorry if it didn't come across that way though.

In other words, the difference in what happens to the cue ball, happens after the cue goes through it, not just hits it. That's probably also why players report it's easier to do things like draw the cue ball with a heavier cue, since follow through is a major factor in that.