Help buying first cue

Sunchaser

Belgian Malinois
Silver Member
I hear all good things about Jackpot cues. Best of all they are worth about 200 dollars.
 

Enigma86

Registered
The other positive if you went with a Pechauer, if you ever decide to upgrade to a higher priced low deflection or carbon fiber shaft, you could stick with you Pechauer butt and just upgrade your shaft.

This is certainly something I'm considering.

The facebook link earlier never popped up for me so I don't know how to find the listing from Michael Littman.

Right now my main considerations are either this listing on craigslist... I've messaged him for shaft diameter, weight, and tip because it doesn't seem to have it. Only negative really is that it doesn't have a wrap and I'd prefer one. You can't have an unwrapped stick wrapped can you?

https://denver.craigslist.org/spo/d/greeley-mcdermott-g230-core-and-case/7200621685.html

Or I really just like this Pechauer's design and the upside is like said above, I could keep this butt and upgrade shafts only when/if I get to that point...

https://www.seyberts.com/pechauer-jp06q-pool-cue

Theres also these on ebay but they have zero information about diameter or shaft at all...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pool-Cue-by-J-Pechauer-Custom-Cues-JP-USA-Green/273821118124?hash=item3fc102aeac%3Ag%3AEJQAAOSwGzBdq0qE&LH_BIN=1

Or just sticking with my original plan for substantially less since this cue comes exactly how I'd like to start out. Downside is that the whole stick would need replacing when I decide to upgrade. I also just would rather a color stain over stickers.

https://www.amazon.com/Players-Technology-HXT15-Two-Piece-Pool/dp/B07CMFDWHP

I'm still looking at the schmelke sticks as well. So far I haven't found any that I like that will keep me enough under the pechauer to not just go for the pechauer. And I'm also going through the for sell section but most of that is way above my limit.



And as far as the break cue goes. I'm not "worried" about velocity exactly, more just wanting to find a good balance for me to maximize energy if I want to power break. I didn't know if there was a good rule of thumb out there for figuring out what the max weight you'd want to use is.

Thanks so much everybody. I'm learning a whole lot as I go through all this.
 

couldnthinkof01

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
He can do a search and find probably a hundred threads with people's opinions on tips (and all the misinformation he can handle) so I won't spend a lot of time on it but I see the above quite a bit differently. A good LePro and a Triangle are actually pretty close in how they feel and play. The biggest difference is that Triangles are pretty consistent from one to the next and all play good. LePro's are wildly inconsistent and range from real mushy and almost fall apart during tip maintenance to hard as a rock and won't hold chalk and only about one third of them are any good, but the third that are good are good (ie they are a lot like Triangles).

A LePro and Triangle user is generally the same guy. One of them has just never tried Triangles before and so he has every two out of his three LePro tips cut off and replaced right away until he finds one of the good ones, and the other guy has switched to Triangles and they all play good so he doesn't have that hassle.

I have heard a couple of people on here over the years say they think Triangles are inconsistent but I haven't seen that at all, whereas it seems like every box of LePro's is almost like a grab bag mix of every tip type ever made and it is a lottery on what you are going to get with each tip in the box.

Elkmaster is indeed a great choice for those who like a tip on the softer side.

I agree with everything you have said here.

I don't think a newbie is going to put on his
own tips so because of that a "decent" installer
will weed out the bad lepros.

Triangle and lepro are very similar.

https://www.pooldawg.com/article/pooldawg-library/the-ultimate-pool-cue-tip-guide

I just didn't want the guy believing that he needs a
$25 tip.
 
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gregnice37

Bar Banger, Cue Collector
Silver Member
This is certainly something I'm considering.

The facebook link earlier never popped up for me so I don't know how to find the listing from Michael Littman.

Right now my main considerations are either this listing on craigslist... I've messaged him for shaft diameter, weight, and tip because it doesn't seem to have it. Only negative really is that it doesn't have a wrap and I'd prefer one. You can't have an unwrapped stick wrapped can you?

https://denver.craigslist.org/spo/d/greeley-mcdermott-g230-core-and-case/7200621685.html

Or I really just like this Pechauer's design and the upside is like said above, I could keep this butt and upgrade shafts only when/if I get to that point...

https://www.seyberts.com/pechauer-jp06q-pool-cue

Theres also these on ebay but they have zero information about diameter or shaft at all...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pool-Cue-by-J-Pechauer-Custom-Cues-JP-USA-Green/273821118124?hash=item3fc102aeac%3Ag%3AEJQAAOSwGzBdq0qE&LH_BIN=1

Or just sticking with my original plan for substantially less since this cue comes exactly how I'd like to start out. Downside is that the whole stick would need replacing when I decide to upgrade. I also just would rather a color stain over stickers.

https://www.amazon.com/Players-Technology-HXT15-Two-Piece-Pool/dp/B07CMFDWHP

I'm still looking at the schmelke sticks as well. So far I haven't found any that I like that will keep me enough under the pechauer to not just go for the pechauer. And I'm also going through the for sell section but most of that is way above my limit.



And as far as the break cue goes. I'm not "worried" about velocity exactly, more just wanting to find a good balance for me to maximize energy if I want to power break. I didn't know if there was a good rule of thumb out there for figuring out what the max weight you'd want to use is.

Thanks so much everybody. I'm learning a whole lot as I go through all this.

I'm personally a fan of seyberts because they give you seyberts dollars to use on your next purchase, like 5% but hey it's something. I'm pretty sure that all the Pechauer shafts are 13mm so the ebay one if new would be 13mm. I believe you can get different diameters from Seyberts for a small fee and choose whichever tip you want. Plus they have the cheap players break and a few cheap cases.

On a side note, I guess it's good you are taking your time to consider a lot of options. I would've bought like 6 by now lol.
 

Enigma86

Registered
On a side note, I guess it's good you are taking your time to consider a lot of options. I would've bought like 6 by now lol.

Haha. Yeah thats not my style. The main reason I'm getting the idea to maybe spend just a little more on one is because my style is just to have one stick that I learn and know inside and out.

I also saw the options on Seyberts. I do like that route cause I can get it exactly how I want it which comes out right at 300 bucks for the one I linked to. It looks like a decent deal but I've also heard some people say that the Pechauer JP line isn't their favorite. So I'm just really kinda torn at the moment. I have a habit of taking purchases a too seriously lol. I get attached to my things.
 

megatron69

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
He can do a search and find probably a hundred threads with people's opinions on tips (and all the misinformation he can handle) so I won't spend a lot of time on it but I see the above quite a bit differently. A good LePro and a Triangle are actually pretty close in how they feel and play. The biggest difference is that Triangles are pretty consistent from one to the next and all play good. LePro's are wildly inconsistent and range from real mushy and almost fall apart during tip maintenance to hard as a rock and won't hold chalk and only about one third of them are any good, but the third that are good are good (ie they are a lot like Triangles).

A LePro and Triangle user is generally the same guy. One of them has just never tried Triangles before and so he has every two out of his three LePro tips cut off and replaced right away until he finds one of the good ones, and the other guy has switched to Triangles and they all play good so he doesn't have that hassle.

I have heard a couple of people on here over the years say they think Triangles are inconsistent but I haven't seen that at all, whereas it seems like every box of LePro's is almost like a grab bag mix of every tip type ever made and it is a lottery on what you are going to get with each tip in the box.

Elkmaster is indeed a great choice for those who like a tip on the softer side.

I did not know that about LePros. I had one on a stick for a couple years, and never had a problem with it, but put a Triangle on another and decided I liked that one better for whatever reason. Good to know. Thanks.
 

measureman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Haha. Yeah thats not my style. The main reason I'm getting the idea to maybe spend just a little more on one is because my style is just to have one stick that I learn and know inside and out.

I also saw the options on Seyberts. I do like that route cause I can get it exactly how I want it which comes out right at 300 bucks for the one I linked to. It looks like a decent deal but I've also heard some people say that the Pechauer JP line isn't their favorite. So I'm just really kinda torn at the moment. I have a habit of taking purchases a too seriously lol. I get attached to my things.

You linked a Denver Craig's list.
Are you in Colorado?
 

NathanDetroit

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
OP, please tell us about your abilities.

No insult, but I practice vs a couple of guys who can cut, bank and kick better than this APA 5, but have no idea where whitey is going.

If you are beating the other 5s with an old Minnesota Fats cue, putting a new tip on it sounds like all you need.. Many here say it is the archer not the arrow, so make sure your arrow head is sharp.

When your team is going to the Tri-cup, then you might want to upgrade.. Until then, work on technique. Not having your draw work is not always equipment. I shutout a 5 Tuesday when the draw shot went one inch instead of one diamond.
 

7stud

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This is certainly something I'm considering.

The facebook link earlier never popped up for me so I don't know how to find the listing from Michael Littman.
Go here:

https://www.facebook.com/commerce/listing/627783927881076/?ref=share_attachment

The cues are simple Pechauer cues with no inlays, they have linen wraps, and they are stained different colors (there's a blue one!). Price is $230, which includes shipping and fees, and you get to choose butt weight and tip size. It sounds like the seller is a Pechauer dealer, so you would also get a lifetime warranty against warpage, however I would talk to Pechauer first to confirm that he is an authorized dealer.

Or I really just like this Pechauer's design and the upside is like said above, I could keep this butt and upgrade shafts only when/if I get to that point...

https://www.seyberts.com/pechauer-jp06q-pool-cue
That's a pretty nice cue if you like blue--which you seem to. :)


Or just sticking with my original plan for substantially less since this cue comes exactly how I'd like to start out. Downside is that the whole stick would need replacing when I decide to upgrade. I also just would rather a color stain over stickers.

https://www.amazon.com/Players-Technology-HXT15-Two-Piece-Pool/dp/B07CMFDWHP
Yep, stickers look cheap.

And I'm also going through the for sell section but most of that is way above my limit.
I've never seen a cue offered for under $300 in the for sale section.

As for break cues, I've seen a couple of good players using a $100 Rage break cue:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rage-HEAVY...b714e3c34:g:znoAAOSwe4heJz8G&var=513067643120

They come in different bright colors, so that you can easily tell them apart from your playing cue in a dark pool hall. Here's the deal though, phenolic tips can put little smiley face cracks all over a cue ball because phenolic tips are so hard. For that reason, I decided against a phenolic tip, which led me to the Billiard Warehouse jump/break cue. And, if I had bought the Billiard Warehouse jump break cue first, I wouldn't have bought a playing cue because the BW j/b cue was sooo much nicer than the house cues I had been using. Yeah, it's supposed to have a hard tip, but I could still get whatever spin I wanted on the cue ball much easier than I could with a house cue. I think just having a decently shaped tip and a slippery shaft makes all the difference in the world.

Good luck! .
 
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Poolplaya9

Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
This is certainly something I'm considering.

The facebook link earlier never popped up for me so I don't know how to find the listing from Michael Littman.

Right now my main considerations are either this listing on craigslist... I've messaged him for shaft diameter, weight, and tip because it doesn't seem to have it. Only negative really is that it doesn't have a wrap and I'd prefer one. You can't have an unwrapped stick wrapped can you?

https://denver.craigslist.org/spo/d/greeley-mcdermott-g230-core-and-case/7200621685.html

Or I really just like this Pechauer's design and the upside is like said above, I could keep this butt and upgrade shafts only when/if I get to that point...

https://www.seyberts.com/pechauer-jp06q-pool-cue

Theres also these on ebay but they have zero information about diameter or shaft at all...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pool-Cue-by-J-Pechauer-Custom-Cues-JP-USA-Green/273821118124?hash=item3fc102aeac%3Ag%3AEJQAAOSwGzBdq0qE&LH_BIN=1

Or just sticking with my original plan for substantially less since this cue comes exactly how I'd like to start out. Downside is that the whole stick would need replacing when I decide to upgrade. I also just would rather a color stain over stickers.

https://www.amazon.com/Players-Technology-HXT15-Two-Piece-Pool/dp/B07CMFDWHP

I'm still looking at the schmelke sticks as well. So far I haven't found any that I like that will keep me enough under the pechauer to not just go for the pechauer. And I'm also going through the for sell section but most of that is way above my limit.



And as far as the break cue goes. I'm not "worried" about velocity exactly, more just wanting to find a good balance for me to maximize energy if I want to power break. I didn't know if there was a good rule of thumb out there for figuring out what the max weight you'd want to use is.

Thanks so much everybody. I'm learning a whole lot as I go through all this.

If you end up getting any "this cue hits or plays great and this one doesn't play good" comments you can more or less ignore them. With the exception of some really crappily built $30 cues made of Ramin wood and the like, if they have the hit and shaft taper and specs that fit your preferences then world class pool can be played with them. In other words it is a lot like which food tastes best, it is all personal preference and the best pool that can humanly be played can be played with all of them in the hands of the guy that has the skills to do it and where the cue is the right fit for his preferences.

All of the cues you linked to are pretty good values and decent quality or better and not just waste of money type junk and would be a decent starting cue. If you want to start with low deflection from the get go out of what you linked to, obviously you would have to go with the Player's cue or McDermott as they have the only low deflection shafts that I noticed, but I don't know enough about either of those particular shafts to know which is lower deflection. If you want the slightly better build quality, it is a toss up between Pechauer or McDermott although it is not like Player's won't last last quite a few years if cared for. If the prestige (or lack thereof) in the name is important to you, out of those none of them are going to impress "cue snobs" but the Pechauer and McDermott are seen as being at least fairly respectable makes by most people, but the Player's is looked a bit more down on by a few even if not completely justified especially considering the price point. If you want the best warranty, as I recall the McDermott and Pechauer warranties are significantly better although I don't recall the exact details of either one, or if they would transfer to the second owner if you buy one that was pre-owned, so look their warranties up if that is important to you.

Keep in mind that you may end up wanting to change the butt out down the road too as you learn your preferences and/or they change so I wouldn't necessarily get too stuck on thinking you are only likely to change shafts later as it may or may not be the case, although having the option to only change shafts if that is all that is needed certainly isn't a bad one. With cue butts their balance points differ, their weights differ, their diameters differ, their wraps differ, their joints differ, their aesthetic designs differ, the prestige of the brands differ, and you may develop distinct preferences on those or several other things and want to change butts as a result at some point. To be on the safe side I would buy your cue with the knowledge that it is possible you may end up wanting to replace the whole thing at some point and not just the shaft, although it probably wouldn't be within a year, and it is also possible you never replace any of it at any point.

To answer some of your break cue questions, within reason your arm speed is much more responsible for the cue ball speed/break power than the weight of the cue is, but if I remember right there was some testing done that showed that most people get the most pure break speed from using about an 18 ounce cue as it is right in the sweet spot for swing speed/cue weight. Remember that speed of the break isn't everything though and within reason the accuracy of your break is more important and as a result most people don't even break at full power, just the most power they can break accurately with so good chance you won't even use quite all the break speed you are capable of and the weight you can be most accurate with may play a bigger role.

Most people prefer a break cue that is somewhere between one ounce lighter to the same weight as their playing cue, and most people's break cues tend to be in the 18-19 oz range. There is some argument that for those people who are real outliers and just can't generate much arm speed while breaking, they may break slightly better with a slightly heavier break cue than that as long as they can move it at the same speed (or they would tend to be on the end of the range with their playing cue weight instead of going lighter anyway). Same might hold true for a very few who just can't swing a lighter cue accurately and may get their fastest accurate break with a slightly heavier than normal break cue, but chances are somewhere around 18-19 ounces will be the right break cue weight for you. Most important is you want the fastest accurate break possible and no more, not fastest pure speed possible, and time and experimentation will tell you exactly where that is with what cue weight and with just what percentage of your power you are giving it. For a newer player there might be a decent argument to be made for just starting with the break cue being the same weight as your playing cue rather than dealing with something that feels different for the breaks, and many experienced players also choose that route for just that reason. I definitely wouldn't go outside of that "one ounce less to same weight as your playing cue" bracket to start off with in any case.

While not necessary, it probably isn't an awful idea to have a combination jump/break cue (it will have two joints instead of just one) instead of a plain break cue (particularly if you are trying to save on money and the number of cues you buy/carry with you) so that you can also use it as a shorter jump cue when those shots become necessary and you learn how to do them well.

As several others have mentioned, the J&J break cues are decent break cue and a great value for the money. I have tried a couple of their break/jump combos that didn't jump real well for some reason but they always break pretty well, but I am not sure if they typically don't jump as well as they break, or if that was just an anomaly in a couple I ran into.
 
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Island Drive

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hello everybody. First I'd like to say I'm sorry if this post is in the wrong spot. I looked around and couldn't find anything exactly related to noob questions about cues. I'm 33 and have been playing since I was a kid. Several tables in the family. I never played a league until now where a buddy of mine invited me to play in an APA league.

I haven't played in 5 years but I love the game. Went almost immediately to a 6 and got beat back down to a 5. None of my teammates have their own cue so we've been using house cues that you can't even draw with and tonight it finally cost me two games.

I want to get something that's quality, but I'm still new and not sure how serious I'll get. However, a good pool cue is something I know that I can take care of and use for a long time. Went and talked to a shop today and realized I'm in over my head.

What i think I'd like is a 19 or 19.5oz and leaning towards a 12.75mm tip. I think I'd also like something with a soft/soft medium tip which I know can be changed but it would be a plus if it came that way. I don't know brands what so ever though. Can somebody point me in some kind of direction where I can get quality but not spend a ton? Would like to stay well under 200, though i usually find myself the type to spend the extra 25-50 bucks if it means a pretty good feature or something I see as good value. One that I've wondered about is the players hxt15. Anybody know anything about it?

Thank you very much in advance.

Your perspective is good. Why buy a BMW for your first car, when a chevy or ford will do.
Personally I'd buy a cue that can be resold for about what you paid for it. A $200 cue might not bring but 1/2 that with resale. I'd look in the $4-$500 dollar range, and not get one with two shaft$, but get one with a warranty of some type. Go with a company in good standing with the billiard community, Mueller I highly recommend, I've know Rory for years, stand up man.

Hope you enjoy your league in your area, they are sooo different from city to city.
 

Enigma86

Registered
OP, please tell us about your abilities.

No insult, but I practice vs a couple of guys who can cut, bank and kick better than this APA 5, but have no idea where whitey is going.

If you are beating the other 5s with an old Minnesota Fats cue, putting a new tip on it sounds like all you need.. Many here say it is the archer not the arrow, so make sure your arrow head is sharp.

When your team is going to the Tri-cup, then you might want to upgrade.. Until then, work on technique. Not having your draw work is not always equipment. I shutout a 5 Tuesday when the draw shot went one inch instead of one diamond.

Understood. Hey I know ego is the enemy of improvement so I usually try to keep that in check.

I don't know how to best describe my abilities. TBH I actually shoot better than the 5's and 6's that I've seen so far in the terms of raw shooting (except I'm still getting my eye back for banks)... or at least on par with some of the 6's. My biggest problem is where I leave the cue right now, it didn't used to be. I can't figure out how much of it right now is me or how much is the cue since it doesn't matter if I hit high or low, the cue ball basically does the same thing with how bad these cues we use are. I do know that I've misread it a couple of times, however. In the not terribly distant past, put me on a regulation sized table, let me break, and you have about a 65% chance of getting a shot.

I'm not here thinking that a cue stick is going to make me a better player. The reason I finally jumped on it though was because I finally had matches where I KNOW I lost because I couldn't even get the cue ball to stick on a draw shot, it flew forward as if I had followed through. Nobody on the team has ANY cue at all. And I love to play and always wanted my own anyways. I also kinda hate the idea of ever spending ANY money on something I'm just going to get rid of or not like.

If I get the right cue I'll keep it my entire life and that will always be my cue. That's just how I am. But I'm not planning on being a major hot shot and playing in large tournaments or anything either, so it doesn't have to be some top of the line thing. Just something I like and I know isn't limiting me.
 

Poolplaya9

Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
Personally I'd buy a cue that can be resold for about what you paid for it. A $200 cue might not bring but 1/2 that with resale. I'd look in the $4-$500 dollar range...

I was going to mention that it might be a good idea to buy used for a newer player as well, since a newer player is more likely to switch cues several times as they develop and learn their cue preferences and you take less of a hit when you sell the cue to try the next one (sometimes none or even a little profit if you bought it used at a good price).

But unless it is just one of a very few cuemakers and you are spending in the thousands, I don't know any cues you can buy new and not take a bit hit when you sell them including those in the $200 range or $500 range. Some brands will take a bigger hit than others depending on how big the used market demand is for a particular brand, but all the hits will still be pretty big if you bought new anywhere in those general price ranges unless there are some exceptions I am just not aware of. Buying used however allows you to take little or any hit in most cases if you didn't overpay to begin with though (which means having to know or research fair used values obviously).
 

gregnice37

Bar Banger, Cue Collector
Silver Member
Haha. Yeah thats not my style. The main reason I'm getting the idea to maybe spend just a little more on one is because my style is just to have one stick that I learn and know inside and out.

I also saw the options on Seyberts. I do like that route cause I can get it exactly how I want it which comes out right at 300 bucks for the one I linked to. It looks like a decent deal but I've also heard some people say that the Pechauer JP line isn't their favorite. So I'm just really kinda torn at the moment. I have a habit of taking purchases a too seriously lol. I get attached to my things.

I just recently bought my 1st Pechauer last October because I wanted to try their CF shaft out. I haven't hit with it yet because of back issues, then covid but in hand the cue looks and feels amazing. Of course it was over 2k so I'm sure there's some difference.
 

SSDiver2112

2b || !2b t^ ?
I really enjoy playing with my Pechauers I got the wrap-less JP first and really liked it, but I found that a preferred the linen wrap so I converted the JP into my break cue by adding the Black Ice shaft and got a P10-G. Besides the wrap, the only obvious difference is the pro has a stainless steel piloted joint. Your playing well with a house cue so you should be happy with the JP.

30d1f1ed35e18ca957948c7dbdec9be1.jpg


a541a28b21118e154caf30ff76ab5860.jpg



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Hello everybody. First I'd like to say I'm sorry if this post is in the wrong spot. I looked around and couldn't find anything exactly related to noob questions about cues. I'm 33 and have been playing since I was a kid. Several tables in the family. I never played a league until now where a buddy of mine invited me to play in an APA league.

I haven't played in 5 years but I love the game. Went almost immediately to a 6 and got beat back down to a 5. None of my teammates have their own cue so we've been using house cues that you can't even draw with and tonight it finally cost me two games.

I want to get something that's quality, but I'm still new and not sure how serious I'll get. However, a good pool cue is something I know that I can take care of and use for a long time. Went and talked to a shop today and realized I'm in over my head.

What i think I'd like is a 19 or 19.5oz and leaning towards a 12.75mm tip. I think I'd also like something with a soft/soft medium tip which I know can be changed but it would be a plus if it came that way. I don't know brands what so ever though. Can somebody point me in some kind of direction where I can get quality but not spend a ton? Would like to stay well under 200, though i usually find myself the type to spend the extra 25-50 bucks if it means a pretty good feature or something I see as good value. One that I've wondered about is the players hxt15. Anybody know anything about it?

Thank you very much in advance.

You said that you would be willing to go up to $50 over, if it is a great cue.

Well, for $240, you can get this Joss, and I guarantee you will love it.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Joss-Sneak...137857?hash=item41c5f67601:g:hZIAAOSw7ehXRQKw

That cue will last you a lifetime, if well cared for, and Dan Janes of Joss cues has been making high quality cues for over 40 years.

So, for around $200, I think that is the best quality cue you are going to find. Hard to beat a Joss, when it comes to quality, unless you could add a couple hundred more for a Schon.

Or, for around $200, you could get a Lucasi, which are made in China, but very high quality Production cues.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lucasi-Cue...sh=item2644d8bc20:g:r~YAAOSwMHpfTnys&LH_BIN=1

I could go on and on, but I will stop there.

Good luck finding something you really enjoy shooting with, but a Joss or a Lucasi are 2 great options that are in the $200 range.
 
If you do not mind buying a used cue, and you appreciate good quality vintage cues, then here is a super nice Helmstetter for a little over $200, after the shipping costs.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Adam-Helms...sh=item5b7b008614:g:2rsAAOSw2dlfM43p&LH_BIN=1

Seller is located in Japan, where the cue was originally made, and it might take awhile to get delivered to you, but it would be very well worth it, in my opinion.

These cues are pretty rare, and very good quality, in my opinion. Very nice hitting cues. These vintage Helmstetter cues were made in Japan, and that is one of the most rare, with his full signature in the forearm, not just his last name.

Anyone who has ever played with a Helmstetter will probably tell you that they are very good cues.
 
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