Helping a Friend learn 14.1

stevekur1

stevekur1

The "COMMISH"
Silver Member
I have a very good friend who i have been shooting with for quite some time now, and he wants to learn the ART of straight pool.

Where should i start?

He's a very good 9-ball and 10 Ball, but tends to overstroke every shot in straight pool.

i have had the liberty of playing alot of straight and watching alot of great ole time players play the game. and have recieved alot of thier advice on how to play the game!

Where do i start in getting him to control his stroke enough to play the game properly.

I Know he has it in him to play the game well, and dont want to see him get frustrated and quit playing the game.

I need a good sparing partner, and i think in time he could be one for me!

Thanks!

Steve
 
Well, honestly, you may want to sit him down with a video of a good 14.1 player like Sigel, Varner, Dallas West etc... and let him watch what they do. Get a feel for the game. Explain little subtleties to him. I find the commentary on Accu-Stats tapes to be top notch. They do a lot of off topic talking but they explain a lot of little things too. Watch a game with him and then hit the table. I find people learn a lot quicker by watching something and trying to imitate it than filling their heads with too much information.

Also, last thing *I* would do would be to judge their shot selection and give advice at the table. Not at the beginning at least. Put those things you want to say into memory and go over them when the game is finished. Next time around they may think a little more. Once they get used to playing, yeah, from time to time you may want to discuss certain shots with them while they're looking at the table. At first though, just let him get used to playing the game.
MULLY
 
The first thing you may want to look at are the length of his bridge/stroke. Today's 9 ball players tend to use a much longer bridge/stroke than the old time great Straight pool players. Most of the time, you move the cue ball shorter distances in Straight pool than in 9 ball, hence, the shorter bridge and stroke. In Mosconi's little red book, he suggests using a short stroke, not the Allan Hopkins type of punch stroke, but not as long as today's typical stroke for 9 ball.
 
Very good!

Ya know after you had said that about the shorter stroke, i realized that i already do that sub-consciously. i guess cause i have been playing straight pool alot longer than he has been.

Thanks Alot for your input!

Steve

i will keep you all in straight pool land about the progress we make
 
Talk to him about table analysis. ID Break balls, keyballs, early.

Play into the bottom corners alot, sides some, upper corners not as much. When you break a rack not many balls should be up past the side pockets (BlackJack)

Find your trouble such as clusters, plan for how to fix trouble. Do not hammer the cluster breakups, plan the shot.

On each rack, fix the trouble, clean out the rails, do not touch any ball you do not need to touch, do not pass near your break ball, find your triangle to finish up (ala John Schmidt)

Stop shots, short cue ball, plan sequences so you have natural cue ball direction not forced. Make the shot every shot.

This is from a player with a sub 40 hi run
 
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elvicash said:
Talk to him about table analysis. ID Break balls, keyballs, early.

Play into the bottom corners alot, sides some, upper corners not as much. When you break a rack not many balls should be up past the side pockets (BlackJack)

Find your trouble such as clusters, plan for how to fix trouble. Do not hammer the cluster breakups, plan the shot.

On each rack, fix the trouble, clean out the rails, do not touch any ball you do not need to touch, do not pass near your break ball, find your triangle to finish up (ala John Schmidt)

Stop shots, short cue ball, plan sequences so you have natural cue ball direction not forced. Make the shot every shot.

This is from a player with a sub 40 hi run
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All very good advice but this is exactly what I meant by not cluttering his head up at the start with a lot of stuff. Get all that swirling around in there and he probably won't even be able to sink a ball sitting in front of the pocket. I think advice like this should come in pieces after the match or if he asks in a certain situation give him that specific piece he's looking for. Just let him get settled into playing the game before giving him a ton of things to think about. If I was playing him every day I'd probably go 2 or 3 weeks without giving him too much advice. If he's a decent shooter he'll pick up on things watching what you do. Once he gets comfortable with the game though and he seems like he could run more balls if he knew some little things then I'd start in on giving more in depth advice.
MULLY
But again, all of this is great advice. I'm not knocking your post at all.
 
Learn well the rules. Fine points of strategy often involve knowing how to use the rules to one's situational advantage.
 
I agree with Mully. Show this person the videos of the best players doing it. Especially the instructional ones, like Schmidt's or Rempe's or the player reviews. As long as there are pro commentators there is a ton to learn from those tapes. I had absolutely no idea why I couldn't run more than 10 balls until I saw my first tape, Mike Sigel's Run Out straight pool about 15 years ago. Things started falling into place, and they continue to.
Actually, this forum has significantly helped my progress as well. I'm improving faster than I ever did. I've become a pretty confident 14.1 player after learning a few key things here.
 
The best advice I can give to anybody is to learn how to identify your end patterns.

It never ceases to amaze me when I see beginners just pocketing every ball that is available with no strategy Usually they pay for it when they get down to the last 5-6 balls.

I suggest starting with 3-4 balls on the table - one ball set up as your break ball, another as your key ball, and another as your set up. You can set up the box pattern, or different variations of the triangle end pattern.

Practice getting perfect on your set up ball, then your key ball, and then your break ball.

As you progress, you can add more balls to the drill.
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end_sequence_example.jpg

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boxpattern.jpg

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trainglepattern.jpg

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trainglepattern2.jpg
 
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Wow all the knowledge being passed around is awesome I myself printed the layouts and diagrams and have studied them while looking at my own racks while i play trying to pick out the key balls.

My biggest problem is break shots i think. I can get out of a rack most times if i focus and play smooth and dont overstroke the balls but once i get to that break ball its like i lose the edge. Maybe its because i worked so hard to get there that once i did i lose that ferocity and that focus and i ease off.
 
ForumGhost516 said:
Wow all the knowledge being passed around is awesome I myself printed the layouts and diagrams and have studied them while looking at my own racks while i play trying to pick out the key balls.

My biggest problem is break shots i think. I can get out of a rack most times if i focus and play smooth and dont overstroke the balls but once i get to that break ball its like i lose the edge. Maybe its because i worked so hard to get there that once i did i lose that ferocity and that focus and i ease off.
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I have posted a lot of information about break shots in the past. Here is some advice I have to pass on that I learned straight from Cisero Murphy.

I was taught to always remain in my comfort zone when it came to break shots. I watched people that were able to pocket the break ball at insane cut angles that would rocket the cue ball into the rack. I tried to do the same thing, but I did not have any control of the cue ball, so I would either scratch, miss the shot, or both.

So keep it simple.

As long as the object ball is within proximity of the stack and the cue ball has a natural angle to go into the stack, you're good to go. The Straight Pool Gods look down upon those who try to force things to happen. Remember that.

Neat in - neat out. This means that when I pocket the break ball, my cue ball will hit one ball in the stack, and then get out of the way. I want my cue ball to touch the break ball and then one ball within the stack. I go up and look at where my cue ball will contact the stack EXACTLY. I recommend that everybody do the same thing.

Don't shoot the break ball so hard. There s no reason to smash the hell out of it. I know that some of the great champions such as Thorsten Hohmann crack the stack to shreds, but they also have the gift of phenomenal accuracy and control.

As a side note, earlier this year I ran 118 balls during practice. During that run, I never pocketed a break ball with ore than a medium speed stroke (on fairly new Simonis). I have found that most of my higher runs come when I go into the balls off the break ball - nudge most of the balls out, and then use a secondary break shot to separate any other clusters.

I find that when I smash into the stack on the break shot, that sometimes the balls go all over the place and I usually have to settle for a less than ideal break ball, a consequence of smashing the balls to hell and back.

I would also recommend practicing different break shots, from the side of the stack - high and low - as well as the back of the stack - and then as you progress, try some that are slightly above the stack - along with some side pocket break shots.

Here is a diagram with more tips - from my 14.1 book, which is almost finished (yes - it really is almost finished!)

Managing_The_Zone.gif
 
First I'm impressed how generous the members of this sight are with information. Between coaching, this site, and over 1,000 hours of practice during the last 9 months, I have gained more information and knowledge then in the first 20 years I played. Taking 25 years off didn't help my game and everything was a secret back then. My favorite posts have been, "Finding end Patterns", "No Somewhere in Straight pool." and Blackjack's reply on this thread. Not to be left out bluepepper's, "Run This" posts. Aside from all the good advice above have your friend play other willing to teach straight pool players. Then take a step back and wait to be asked for advice rather then overwhelm him with yours. I'm echoing mullyman's advice, "Also, last thing *I* would do would be to judge their shot selection and give advice at the table." I speak from experience as I made that mistake and I have been on both sides of this one.
 
Blackjack said:
Here is a diagram with more tips - from my 14.1 book, which is almost finished (yes - it really is almost finished!)
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Makes me want to read more. Be sure to let everybody know when your book will be out. When will that be, by the way?
 
Dan White said:
Makes me want to read more. Be sure to let everybody know when your book will be out. When will that be, by the way?
Click to expand...

I've recently moved into a new place and still sorting things out. Shouldn't be long - plenty of diagrams and knowledge - plus a forward by Steve Lipsky.
 
Coming up in the northeast I got to watch tons of great players play the game. They all had different strokes, bridge length, speed of play, etc, so my advise would be the opposite of some posts here.

Don't ask a good player to change his style to fit any certain game! I think thats a mistake. If Allen Hopkins can be world champ, and Thorsten, Niels, Engert....all guys with longer flowing strokes can be world champ, then it tells me it is NOT your stroke, it's how you get around the balls.

I was lucky IMO (like Joe T said) to learn 9ball first. I learned to put the cue ball anywhere I wanted to on the table, and that fact developed my strong stroke. I then learned the world of 14.1.....yea, I shoot some shots that "old skool'rs" might not, but it's nice to have that option. It will be tough for your friend at first coming from "area" position in 9B......then having to be much tighter, but he will learn like I did.

I would suggest, as others have, for him to watch players he can associate with. If he is like me, that would be guys like Dallas West, Mike Sigel, Thorsten, Niels, Thomas Engert.....etc. Watching these guys and their pace of play helps my game.

There is nothing wrong with playing tight short position 14.1, but don't be surprised if your friend is more comfortable moving the ball a little more in the begining...he will learn what it takes for him to run balls.

I guess what I'm saying is that there is no one perfect cookie cutter way to play for everyone, but there are a handful of very important things that EVERY great 14.1'r does, and many of those things are already posted here in the 14.1 section!:D

You guys who are learning the game right now are very lucky! I had to beg, plead, lose money, pay table time, and do free plumbing work to learn a lot of this stuff!!:o

G.
 
elvicash said:
find your triangle to finish up (ala John Schmidt)
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Elvi: When I first read this I thought "... and a la Johnny Holiday, too", but I bit my tongue.

The other day when Bobby Hunter was at the Billiard Club we asked him where he learned straight pool. On one of the tapes one of the commentators said he learned from Harold Worst. He said Harold had passed away a few years before he started playing pool.

He learned from a clinic that Tom Kollins gave on straight pool and also from a little book by Johnny Holiday, the little one with the red border. That would make it "Position Play for Hi-Runs". He said that book had everything in there you needed for 14.1 , that nobody else was talking about.

Looks like I have another book to reread.

:D
 
dmgwalsh said:
He learned from a clinic that Tom Kollins gave on straight pool and also from a little book by Johnny Holiday, the little one with the red border. That would make it "Position Play for Hi-Runs". He said that book had everything in there you needed for 14.1 , that nobody else was talking about.

Looks like I have another book to reread.

:D
Click to expand...

Thanks Dennis for the heads up. I just ordered it. How I missed this book over the years I don't know.
 
bluepepper said:
Thanks Dennis for the heads up. I just ordered it. How I missed this book over the years I don't know.
Click to expand...

Hey, do me a favor and let us know what you thought of the book.

Thanks,
 
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