Here It Is The SILVER GINACUE
- Thread starter kvinbrwr
- Start date
Here are some pics of what is arguably the most collectible cue ever made. The way I understand it, the trinity of holy grail cues is the Golden Babushka, the Last Gus and the Silver Gina. Ernie Gutierrez's 69th birthday was yesterday and he celebrated by working all day like he does every day except Sunday. Kam Daswani (Kam here at AZ) was there visiting Ernie's, as was my friend Joe Richland (junksecret here in AZ land). Ernie was kind enough to show the Silver Gina and Joe ran and got whatever camera he had and shot with the light available in Ernie's shop. I was a little surprised that Ernie allowed the pictures and very surprised when he gave me permission to post them on AZ. I consider this a rather rare treat and that's why I'm posting them here in the Main rather than in cue gallery. My thanks to Kam for inspiring Ernie, Joe for taking the best pics he could in those conditions, and of course, to Ernie for the permission (and for building this monster to begin with).
Ernie started the Silver Gina in 1965 and finished it and the hand made case in 1966. He built the cue as a display of his skills and would take it to tournaments and play with it as a way of drawing attention, showcasing his talents and gathering orders. As you can see, the cue has been used as all Ginas are intended to be used, as a pool playing instrument. The cue and case are constructed of silver, ivory, mother of pearl, maple and ebony. Ernie had been building cues for 3 years when he built this cue more than 40 yeas ago.
I deal in high-end collectibles and the Silver Gina is one of the few instances I can think of where a collectible of high value has been retained in the possession of the person who actually created it. Generally a historically collectible piece gets valued by what it sells or auctions for as it gets passed up the chain from collector to collector to gallery and museums. The Silver Gina is valued in a different way, as it has never been sold. It is valued by the offers Ernie has turned down. Starting in 1966 at turning down the unheard of at that time sum of $3,000 all the way up to modern times with him refusing a purported $350K.
Here it is:
I have seen this cue and case in person and there aren't any pictures in the world that can really capture it's power. Thank you for sharing these and reminding me how absolutely awesome it is.
Some things are more important to a man than money.
You know. It's really sad that Ernie hardly ever gets mentioned as influential on the cue making industry. I say this with utmost respect when I say that Ernie's sense of design in 1966 was DECADES above his peers. I have seen a lot of Balabushkas and Gus Szambotis that had me shaking my heads as to how anyone could have ever stuck sich dissimilar parts together. Granted they ALL surely played like gold but the aesthetics left a lot to be desired. I wish Ernie would be mentioned more often as to the incredible influence he had. Maybe it's because he quit for a while, maybe it's because he is a West Coast maker and the most pool was in the east and midwest. I don't know but Ernie sure as hell deserves more than an honorable mention whenever the history of cue making is brought up.
Back when Tad was doing the same type of Palmer/Bushka/Szam designs Ernie was doing incredible stuff that even cue makers of this era have yet to surpass.
Not really sure what you mean here John??
Maybe you just don't follow cues as much as you do cases but most everyone knows that Ernie is in the top 5 cuemakers of all time and is definitely credited with being the most innovative and influential.
Ernie changed the game in cue design and is most copied cuemaker on the planet.
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Actually everybody does NOT know this. And Gina is not the most copied maker.
That was my point. I'd bet you a case that if we did a true study of discussions on AZ Billiards about great cue makers who had an impact on the art then Ernie's name would come up FAR less in the discussions than it ought to have. Take the past ten years as an example and just compare mentions of Gus Szamboti, George Balabushka, Gina/Ernie Gutierrez (notice the brand name/real name there Joe?) and any two others you want and I bet Ernie comes in well behind the first two when he probably shouldn't in my opinion.
Didn't say everyone, I said most... as in most of the people that care enough about custom cues normally know of Ernie and his contribution to cue making.
I'm not going to get into it or make and hypothetical bets with you on a true study... how do you determine how often he should be mentioned anyway? That's ridiculous.
I'm just going to respectfully disagree with particular opinions you have that hint at Ernie being overlooked in certain aspects such as this:
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To say Ernie doesn't get mentioned enough as influential as he deserves or should is a nice thing to say. To say he hardly gets mentioned, well, I guess that would depend on who you are talking to.
If you are talking to cue makers, who the the 2 most influential or respected nowadays (not counting Ernie)? I think that Barry and Searing would be two pretty good contenders. I'm thinking if you ask Barry or Dennis to name the most influential cue makers of all time and allow them to list, say, four people, they both would include Ernie Gutierrez in their list. Why do I say this? From talking to them both. So like I said at the beginning, the "hardly mentioned" would certainly depend on who it is you are talking with.
Collectors? I don't know them all certainly, but I can't think of one off the top of my head that wouldn't mention Ernie in a conversation of the most influential as being at least in their top 3 or 4.
Dealers? Off the top of my head, the 4 biggest I think of are, Little Kenny, Big Kenny, Lucky and Bill Grassley (sorry for whomever I left out). I can't imagine any of those guys making a 4 most influential cue makers of all time list without Ernie on it. I might be wrong.
I'm sort of hard pressed to think of who was copied more than Ernie, maybe if you count all the Titlists as Rambow copies, maybe it was Rambow. If you count all the plain jane TADs as Martin copies, maybe it was Martin (although Tad himself laughs about copying Ernie and while on the subject of most influential, if you are having that conversation with Tad, he isn't going 2 names before mentioning Ernie).
Thanks
Kevin
If you are talking to cue makers, who the the 2 most influential or respected nowadays (not counting Ernie)? I think that Barry and Searing would be two pretty good contenders. I'm thinking if you ask Barry or Dennis to name the most influential cue makers of all time and allow them to list, say, four people, they both would include Ernie Gutierrez in their list. Why do I say this? From talking to them both. So like I said at the beginning, the "hardly mentioned" would certainly depend on who it is you are talking with.
Collectors? I don't know them all certainly, but I can't think of one off the top of my head that wouldn't mention Ernie in a conversation of the most influential as being at least in their top 3 or 4.
Dealers? Off the top of my head, the 4 biggest I think of are, Little Kenny, Big Kenny, Lucky and Bill Grassley (sorry for whomever I left out). I can't imagine any of those guys making a 4 most influential cue makers of all time list without Ernie on it. I might be wrong.
I'm sort of hard pressed to think of who was copied more than Ernie, maybe if you count all the Titlists as Rambow copies, maybe it was Rambow. If you count all the plain jane TADs as Martin copies, maybe it was Martin (although Tad himself laughs about copying Ernie and while on the subject of most influential, if you are having that conversation with Tad, he isn't going 2 names before mentioning Ernie).
Thanks
Kevin
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The difference is that Gina/Ernie same person. He doesn't have anyone working in his shop. So you KNOW who made the cue. Brand name / real name irrelevent to the other thread. As far as most influence, with the advent of the internet and the popularity of cues in the last 20 years, more people know more things.
I can tell you as fact, up until 1986 if you said Ginacue or Ernie G. in NJ/NY you would have gotten a very big WHOOOOO? Maybe and most likely because of his hiatus. I for one am glad he came back, I like his old stuff alot and his new stuff is very nice.
JV
Exactly. Furthermore...
Taken from:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=748786#post748786
JV
Its an East Coast/West Coast thing. You guys were all walking around in the snow and the darkness of clouds saying George/Gus while we out here in the sunshine of enlightenment were all reciting TAD/Ernie.
LOL
Kevin
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There are many ways to glean relevant data from a forum such as this. You are a little too close to the subject in my opinion. I, on the other hand, have been in the cue selling business for more than 20 years and am speaking of the vast majority of people out there who know a little about custom cue and makers but who aren't immersed in it fully. I understand your disagreement and where it comes from. I hope that you don't misunderstand my comments or my intent.
I think Gus has the same respect everywhere,
Ernie is a amazing cue maker and has been for many many years. He has influenced many many cue makers over the years. His contribution to American cue making cant be over stated. Ernie has been on the cutting edge and years ahead of many cue makers in his designs and artistic flair. I never heard anyone knock Ernie's work.
Ernie is a amazing cue maker and has been for many many years. He has influenced many many cue makers over the years. His contribution to American cue making cant be over stated. Ernie has been on the cutting edge and years ahead of many cue makers in his designs and artistic flair. I never heard anyone knock Ernie's work.
I saw this cue in 1986 or so
I got everyone I knew to make me ivory wrapped cues
Jerry Franklin made me 6
Tim Scruggs made 4 or so Paul Drexler about 4,Peterson,Schrager,McDaniel, Pdrgent,Shick,Mottey,and others
ThisGina was an inspiration to me then,and it still stands alone
if I were to make another one,Paul Drexler would be the choice again,he has such great taste ,proportion,designs,taste and workmanship
I got everyone I knew to make me ivory wrapped cues
Jerry Franklin made me 6
Tim Scruggs made 4 or so Paul Drexler about 4,Peterson,Schrager,McDaniel, Pdrgent,Shick,Mottey,and others
ThisGina was an inspiration to me then,and it still stands alone
if I were to make another one,Paul Drexler would be the choice again,he has such great taste ,proportion,designs,taste and workmanship
Hey Kev, been away for a minute. Thank you for reposting these for me.
The east coast / west coast comment was funny, and perhaps true to an extent. Look how long it took for Martin's name to get to the other side of the country...
Anyway, thanks for the eye candy. It truly is a thing of beauty!
The east coast / west coast comment was funny, and perhaps true to an extent. Look how long it took for Martin's name to get to the other side of the country...
Anyway, thanks for the eye candy. It truly is a thing of beauty!
Truly amazing...
Kevin, You mentioned this cue to me a couple years ago and man you weren't kidding. I don't think there's another cue maker who in there 3rd yr of business made there crowning achivement! Ernie has certainly made many amazing cues since then, but has he made any bigger cues than this?
Thanks for pushing to get this cue posted, it's an eye opener for sure...
Dan Z
Kevin, You mentioned this cue to me a couple years ago and man you weren't kidding. I don't think there's another cue maker who in there 3rd yr of business made there crowning achivement! Ernie has certainly made many amazing cues since then, but has he made any bigger cues than this?
Thanks for pushing to get this cue posted, it's an eye opener for sure...
Dan Z
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In 1993 at the World 9-ball Championship in Arlington Heights, Illinois, I had a booth right next to Ernie. When the tournament was going on, no one was looking at our cues, so the cuemakers played pool with each other on one of the two Diamond tables that we had setup.
Ernie actually plays with that cue. (or at least he did then then). He even broke with it. I asked him how it hit, and he handed it to me. I ran the last 5 or 6 balls of the rack. He then racked the balls, and I jokingly said "can I break with it?" He said sure, go ahead.
No way was I going to break with a 25-30 year old cue.
The cue is a little heavy for me. I think it was about 21 ounces, perhaps 22. A lot of people played with a heavy cue when that cue was made. I'm amazed it wasn't heavier, considering how much silver is in it.
--Jim Buss--
http://www.jimbuss.com
Ernie actually plays with that cue. (or at least he did then then). He even broke with it. I asked him how it hit, and he handed it to me. I ran the last 5 or 6 balls of the rack. He then racked the balls, and I jokingly said "can I break with it?" He said sure, go ahead.
No way was I going to break with a 25-30 year old cue.
The cue is a little heavy for me. I think it was about 21 ounces, perhaps 22. A lot of people played with a heavy cue when that cue was made. I'm amazed it wasn't heavier, considering how much silver is in it.
--Jim Buss--
http://www.jimbuss.com
Ernie has probably made bigger cues in terms of how much time he spent in building them. The Cathedral Cues he finished this year almost surely were more time consuming even with the help of CNC design. But the Silver Gina is probably his biggest cue in terms of value. Ernie has made some of the highest priced cues ever but he's probably turned down more money for this cue than any other cue he ever made has sold for. We know for sure of at least one offer for $300K, but who knows what other offers he's turned down. And I believe he was offered $250K something like 25 years ago. Not sure what the most expensive cue he ever sold went for though. Some of the really high end stuff is in the collections of very private individuals.
I found out after I offered the $300,000 he had turned down $400,000. This I know for a fact. Had I known this before I made the offer I wouldnt have made the offer. The guy who maded the $400,000 offer is real and has one heck of a collection. I'm glad Ernie didnt sell it.
Thats all I know about the big $$ on that cue, right now I'm not in the same spot I was and wouldnt spend $300K on a cue now. That cue is Ernie's claim to fame, he is the correct owner.
best
eric
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I now understand why he declines tons of money for the cue. A friend of mine gave me the history of the cue. Based on the story, I wouldn't sell it either.
Dave
I now understand why he declines tons of money for the cue. A friend of mine gave me the history of the cue. Based on the story, I wouldn't sell it either.
Dave
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