High English Thoughts

[Banks]

Maybe Dr. Dave can verify this, if I even remember it correctly from physics..

When hitting a ball high, the force of the momentum is carried higher above the center. While this may not be the "overspin" that you are looking for(or trying to disprove), this is what is caused by the hit. Even in a masse, the ball briefly overspins, but the thing causing it to repeatedly hit a cushion is caused by the energy of the spin. Try some hits with side and watch the curve that takes effect as the friction begins to work on the spin, kind of like the curve from a multi-rail bank.

Or, for another example.. like the break that was mentioned earlier..

You can power a break with top, only to see it bounce back a little before regaining it's grip on the cloth and spinning forward. Usually, at that time the energy wears off from the spin and it is transfered into movement as the friction takes hold. While the ball may not be spinning faster than it's movement along the cloth, the energy of the spin does not wear off until it is used up in a collision or elsewhere.

Hopefully I got that right(if not, I'd like to hear more). It's the same principle of hitting a railed bank shot with top/angle to spin-kill the cue ball right at the rail or how people will try to use top on certain cut shots only to see the cue ball die right away instead of coming down-table.

Somebody asked earlier how you can tell what you're getting with a 70-degree hit or whatever. Well, how do you know to do a stop-shot, or an inch of draw, or knock a ball 3 feet into a hole?

Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong.. I just keep hittin em til I get it the way I expect.

 

[Bob Jewett]

He's not. Side would never bend the cueball like that. That shot behaves as if struck with straight top, lots of it. There must be rotation of the cueball about its vertical axis to cause it to bend like that. Side alone will only change the path off the rail, NOT bend that path.

KMRUNOUT

I think the shooter had a little right side spin on the cue ball to keep it away from the blocker balls. You don't need much off the tip due to the effective multiplication at impact with the object ball.

 

[steev]

I have a question about high english

Mark Wilson has mentioned to me in the past that there is value at hitting the cue ball very high with a level cue he calls this pro grade high and the cue ball seems to be more empowered loaded up so to say.

If it is not possible to over spin the cue ball and perfectly rolling is the best that is actually accomplished why do the pro players who shot so straight and control the cue ball direction so well after hitting the object, they seem to pick exactly how high to hit the cue ball as if it really matters.

Not all great players understand the physics behind what they do. You don't have to be a banger to have misconceptions.

Here's a possible reason for said misconceptions:

Hitting very high on the ball can reduce the speed (power) of the shot, allowing for a softer hit with the same stroke. Follow responds better after the OB contact on a softer hit. This would lead many to believe that cueing higher with the same stroke gives more follow.

Observable, yes. True, no.

-s

 

[Tony_in_MD]

I am fairly sure it was not done with Kamui Chalk either.

Hola,

i m just a bit amused, that some guys now really could think, that this shot could be done better with a kamui- this shot can be done with every leather tip on this planet-not matter if it s elkmaster, milk-dud, LePro and, and etc...

 

[risky biz]

It looks like he's hitting it with extreme left at mid-level. As the cue ball comes off the cushion it flips over somewhat and the spin gets traction on the felt and arcs.

As to the Kamui shot I cannot believe the guy is hitting that with pure side english but I will watch it some more.

I watched it some more and although he initially lines up with extreme left at mid-level he actually hits it with extreme left and closer to draw english. The CB pops off the rail and lands slightly rotated with the draw now becoming force follow and getting traction.

He's not. Side would never bend the cueball like that. That shot behaves as if struck with straight top, lots of it. There must be rotation of the cueball about its vertical axis to cause it to bend like that. Side alone will only change the path off the rail, NOT bend that path.

KMRUNOUT

I think the shooter had a little right side spin on the cue ball to keep it away from the blocker balls. You don't need much off the tip due to the effective multiplication at impact with the object ball.

There is no follow or right side spin imparted in that stroke. The key is that the CB gets airborne after contact with the cushion. The direction of spin is then determined by the axis of spin relative to the part of the CB that contacts the cloth when landing.

 

[naji]

I have a question about high english

If with high english it is not possible to significantly overspin the cue ball with high english what is the use of ever hitting the cue ball higher than 2/5 above center (70% of cue ball height) according to physics this is where a perfect level collision of tip to CB is assured to give a rolling cue ball. On the other hand the teaching pro Mark Wilson has mentioned to me in the past that there is value at hitting the cue ball very high with a level cue he calls this pro grade high and the cue ball seems to be more empowered loaded up so to say.

Is that a good stroke or just well hit at the right speed (maybe that is the same thing).

in few posts before the question was asked where do you look last when you fire; this is one example where looking at CB exact tip contact point helps get the english you want. But if you look at OB, sometimes the arm back/forward swing tend to bring tip a bit down, that is why in my opinion we miss cue on draw shot, and not develop the follow we need, just a thought

 

[Tony_in_MD]

There are special shots that I look at the cue ball last, because of the importance to hit the cue ball exactly where I intend.

Break Shots
Masse's
Jumps

Though I had not tried this shot, it may well be approached the same way.

in few posts before the question was asked where do you look last when you fire; this is one example where looking at CB exact tip contact point helps get the english you want. But if you look at OB, sometimes the arm back/forward swing tend to bring tip a bit down, that is why in my opinion we miss cue on draw shot, and not develop the follow we need, just a thought

 

[naji]

There are special shots that I look at the cue ball last, because of the importance to hit the cue ball exactly where I intend.

Break Shots
Masse's
Jumps

Though I had not tried this shot, it may well be approached the same way.

In my opinion, and many others, once you done with warm up strokes and aiming, you can close the eye and shoot, so why not always look at exact tip contact on every shot to deliver the desired CB effect, like hitting a nail. In my opinion, looking at OB might cause you to deliver cue to wrong spot and miss, not due to aim but unintentional tip which cause deflection, curving, and slide, or role

 

[Tony_in_MD]

There are some great players that look at the cue ball last, all of the time.

It is all what works for you.

BTW closing your eyes after warmups is a great practice routine for cuetip delivery.

In my opinion, and many others, once you done with warm up strokes and aiming, you can close the eye and shoot, so why not always look at exact tip contact on every shot to deliver the desired CB effect, like hitting a nail. In my opinion, looking at OB might cause you to deliver cue to wrong spot and miss.

 

[Mikjary]

I watched it some more and although he initially lines up with extreme left at mid-level he actually hits it with extreme left and closer to draw english. The CB pops off the rail and lands slightly rotated with the draw now becoming force follow and getting traction.





There is no follow or right side spin imparted in that stroke. The key is that the CB gets airborne after contact with the cushion. The direction of spin is then determined by the axis of spin relative to the part of the CB that contacts the cloth when landing.

He hits the shot firm with left english to make the cue ball jump off of the rail. The forward roll doesn't take affect until it lands and he creates a turn behind the balls. The farther the object ball is from the short rail, more speed is required to do this shot.

Best,
Mike

 

[randyg]

In my opinion, and many others, once you done with warm up strokes and aiming, you can close the eye and shoot, so why not always look at exact tip contact on every shot to deliver the desired CB effect, like hitting a nail. In my opinion, looking at OB might cause you to deliver cue to wrong spot and miss, not due to aim but unintentional tip which cause deflection, curving, and slide, or role

Really!!!!
That would be like looking at the steering wheel of your car when you are turning a corner!!!!!!!
randyg

 

[Mitchxout]

Really!!!!
That would be like looking at the steering wheel of your car when you are turning a corner!!!!!!!
randyg

Lol! That was the funniest thing I've ever heard. :thumbup:

 

[naji]

Really!!!!
That would be like looking at the steering wheel of your car when you are turning a corner!!!!!!!
randyg

I am afraid to say you have not reached that level yet. I will give you a year or so to reevaluate your response. If i look at your cue ball now after you shoot and miss using english 99% because your blue tip marks did not go where you have in mind; the only way to fix that is to look at that point on CB when you fire.
The other thing many people do not know, is once you done warm and aiming, nothing will change that unless 1-you move your bridge before shooting, or wrong unintentional english

 

[naji]

Lol! That was the funniest thing I've ever heard. :thumbup:

I will put you in - randyg level classification-see previous quote to randyg.

 

[randyg]

I am afraid to say you have not reached that level yet. I will give you a year or so to reevaluate your response. If i look at your cue ball now after you shoot and miss using english 99% because your blue tip marks did not go where you have in mind; the only way to fix that is to look at that point on CB when you fire.
The other thing many people do not know, is once you done warm and aiming, nothing will change that unless 1-you move your bridge before shooting, or wrong unintentional english

I would think that I-you should fix our stroke FIRST. Then we can look at the Red Head while we are shooting....

Merry Christmas
randyg

 

[BasementDweller]

In my opinion, and many others, once you done with warm up strokes and aiming, you can close the eye and shoot, so why not always look at exact tip contact on every shot to deliver the desired CB effect, like hitting a nail. In my opinion, looking at OB might cause you to deliver cue to wrong spot and miss, not due to aim but unintentional tip which cause deflection, curving, and slide, or role

Really!!!!
That would be like looking at the steering wheel of your car when you are turning a corner!!!!!!!
randyg

I've been wondering about this recently. Naji may have figured out something that has helped his game. I know that conventional wisdom says that you are supposed to look at the object ball last and that's what I do on most shots but I've been tinkering around with looking at the cue ball last on particular shots and that definitely has some merit.

When you consider that there are several great players that look at the cue ball last (Souquet, Feijen) it becomes obvious that it can be done. The question becomes why don't more players do it? I think I may know the answer.

I think this may be an advanced technique as opposed to a banger technique. When we start out playing and we don't know how to properly line up our shots (both while standing and in the addressed position) we really need to know where the object ball is at. So 99% of us end up looking at the object ball last. If we didn't we would miss so many balls because we really weren't lined up properly. Looking at the object ball last gives our subconscious one last chance to correct our alignment errors.

However, after you play for years and you have both a very straight stroke and you are lining up your shots properly the game becomes all about where you hit the cue ball. So in this sense, looking at the cue ball last makes since to me. If you trust your alignment and you want a very precise hit on the cue ball than maybe you should try looking at the cue ball last.

I could be completely wrong on this but I really don't think this has been studied much. Really all we have is conventional wisdom and in this case it may be worth rethinking.

***Sorry this is way off topic***

 

[Neil]

......................

 

[3andstop]

I'd like to comment on a few things. First, here is a post I recalled clearly when I read this topic. The thread goes back to 2008 and I posted at #34.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=100889&

Anyway, here is my thought on why different heights of hit on the CB have different effects even if we agree we aren't over spinning the CB significantly (cause we aren't)

If we agree that a center hit on the CB send it down the table sliding rather than rotating, then we must agree that with ever such a tiny change in the height of the hit, we must be able to impart a partial rotation ... something less than 1 to 1 relative to forward momentum.

So ... perhaps, depending on how pokie our strokie is, how lacking our follow through is, it may need some compensatory height adjustment from where that perfect sweet spot is that goes along with that perfectly sweet stroke, to result in that perfect 1 to 1 ratio that smoothly sends the CB down table.

Ever see one guy hit a nail with a hammer at "X" speed and take a dozen hits to drive the nail home, while the other guy hits it with the same speed, maybe less, and puts it home in 2 strokes.

The variables in this game are endless. I have to hit the CB twice as high to force follow when my wife is yelling at me.

As far as what to look at last when you shoot a shot .. the CB or the OB? It can be done two ways, looking at the CB or the right way. I'll bet lots of players can get pretty good at doing it wrong while lots of others can struggle with doing it right.

Remember, there are a zillion variables both physical and mental in this game, and what to look at last is only one of them.

 

[naji]

I've been wondering about this recently. Naji may have figured out something that has helped his game. I know that conventional wisdom says that you are supposed to look at the object ball last and that's what I do on most shots but I've been tinkering around with looking at the cue ball last on particular shots and that definitely has some merit.

When you consider that there are several great players that look at the cue ball last (Souquet, Feijen) it becomes obvious that it can be done. The question becomes why don't more players do it? I think I may know the answer.

I think this may be an advanced technique as opposed to a banger technique. When we start out playing and we don't know how to properly line up our shots (both while standing and in the addressed position) we really need to know where the object ball is at. So 99% of us end up looking at the object ball last. If we didn't we would miss so many balls because we really weren't lined up properly. Looking at the object ball last gives our subconscious one last chance to correct our alignment errors.

However, after you play for years and you have both a very straight stroke and you are lining up your shots properly the game becomes all about where you hit the cue ball. So in this sense, looking at the cue ball last makes since to me. If you trust your alignment and you want a very precise hit on the cue ball than maybe you should try looking at the cue ball last.

I could be completely wrong on this but I really don't think this has been studied much. Really all we have is conventional wisdom and in this case it may be worth rethinking.

***Sorry this is way off topic***

You are 100% correct on look at cue ball last. But reason they look at OB is they do not know the correct facts and instructors do not know too, they keep teaching same old information over and over again, i hope they change. Truthfully the only thing left after you set your aim that is variable in the air is where the tip will hit, another thing not many people know is you only need very small amount of english, say you are shooting a stun that is thick angle and said you like to put english just enough to cancel throw effect, if your tip hit more than 1/8 tip of the center of CB you will probably over cut that ball; or opposite case you put 1/8 tip and offset your aim a little, if it happens to hit center of CB or less than 1/8 tip you will under cut ; or how many times we did not draw the cue ball?? so at the end, where your tip hits is extremely critical, especially on 3-5 diamonds OB to pocket shots

 

[naji]

I would think that I-you should fix our stroke FIRST. Then we can look at the Red Head while we are shooting....

Merry Christmas
randyg

With all do respect to you; this pool thing is mind boggling due to the many variables in the game, just like trying to find cure to allergy, you never will 100% know what causing it. After 30 years of missing around, i really think lots of people focus on wrong thing. If i ask you what is your definition of stroke you would say shoot straight (assuming), the truth is you cannot shoot none straight when you are ready to fire your shot, your aim is locked in, your bridge is planted, the only thing floating is the tip, you hit left or right of center hard you deflect, you hit below center your cb might curve more, or low with english you curve and deflect; and the biggest of all elevation with tip misalignment
many people think the aim is wrong, truthfully i do not think that, but because they did not account for tip miss hit CB they miss,


The only cure is to look at exact point on CB (not just any point) when you fire, and to make sure that happens, you really have to pull slow to allow your brain to keep looking at that spot; if you pull quick your eye brain coordination do not follow. For sure if you look at OB last is not bad for 80-90% of shots as long as you pull slow, and in my opinion, your focus has to be sharp all the time; other wise you might look at larger spot and miss.
but to be deadly accurate on every shot and get the OB aim out of the picture and focus on cue delivery, you have to look at CB.