Hitting it pure...I'm gonna get hate for this but oh well.

Drop The Rock said:
I love this topic. Although I can't describe or quantify it, only compare it.

Ever hit a golf ball with a 7 iron and feel the difference between two shots that travel the exact same distance? TO ME, this comes from proper tempo and acceleration with the least amount of tension in my arms and hands, while maintaining uniform motion.

I used to play a ton of basketball and could always feel the difference between pushing and shooting. Pushing the ball was a result of near zero uniform motion and resulted in zero backspin. Shooting was a result of excellent tempo and maximum uniform motion.

I believe this applies to pool as well. I have heard many a pro, whether by podcast or in person, talk about hitting the ball pure. Some attribute it to tempo, others how light you hold the cue, acceleration etc.

For those that don't believe that this phenomenon exists please explain why.

For those that do, what is that x factor for you?
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Sure, sometimes it feels great and that is an awesome feeling. I like how you relate it to golf (I have never played) in that the results can easily be the same whether it feels 'pure' or not.

It's something I try to point out on different topics, that a pure stroke doesn't necessarily produce better, or different results.

As for me, I find it is all in the grip. When I am playing loose, it feels much more like everything is in synch.
 
peppersauce said:
I was talking to Gabe Owen some years ago and I asked him about his weird wrist action with his grip hand. His response..."If I start thinking about that I won't be able to make a ball." Lol.
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A LOT of people on here need to read and understand this answer from Gabe. Johnnyt
 
victorl said:
I think most good players tend to use a slow, deliberate backswing, even on power shots. In pool (and snooker for that matter), I believe it's the length (not the speed) of the backswing that determines the speed of the shot.
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Sure. When I was a carpenter I used the same hammer to drive eight penny nails as I did for sixteen penny nails. I was always striking at the same position, but I had a much longer backswing for the large nails.

This brings up an interesting point. I have read a lot of people saying how they hit most of their shots at the same speed (CJ used to say it when he was around). I always doubted it, but maybe what they do (and something I can believe) is use the same muscle force. A longer backswing and the same muscle force exerted over a longer swing will produce a harder hit while seemingly using the same effort (albeit for slightly longer).

Good stuff. I love wrapping my brain around these thoughts.
 
for me it's when i finally get that "dead hand" and it feel like it was just gravity that made the motion. this happens often enough but the key is at a precise distance, somewhere within about 3 diamonds and depending on what i have to do, that's usually when I say "WOW, that was clean" and then my tachycardia kicks in and it's down hill from there. The balls sound different at the collision when you hitem good.
 
ElCorazonFrio said:
I have read a lot of people saying how they hit most of their shots at the same speed (CJ used to say it when he was around).
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I've seen Ronnie O'Sullivan makes this claim too, and I tend to agree with you on it being the same force, though applied over different distances.

Colin
 
Drop The Rock said:
I have heard many a pro, whether by podcast or in person, talk about hitting the ball pure. Some attribute it to tempo, others how light you hold the cue, acceleration etc.

For those that don't believe that this phenomenon exists please explain why.

For those that do, what is that x factor for you?
Click to expand...
I can think of a few things that contribute to this x factor of pure hitting, using my own language, but the ideas have some overlap with other ideas mentioned here. I think these 3 are interrelated, such that they must all come together to some degree to get the feel of a pure hit.

1. Timing / Neuromuscular Adaptation / Bio-mechanical Cordination: This aspect is generally the result of hitting a lot of balls, but can be assisted considerably by adapting one's technique. e.g. Slowing backswing, accelerating smoothly and through the CB, and the coordination to hit the CB where one intends.

2. Aim / Alignment: When not aligned in accordance with one's natural stroke, intuitive bridge movements and swiping and not hitting one's intended CB contact point often occur. There have been tests on the contraction force muscles are capable of when unstable, and they can't contract with as much force, like there is a neurological brake on the contractions. I believe this plays a big role in not being able to accelerate as smoothly as one can when feeling in line with the shot and their intended CB contact point.

3. Visualization and Knowledge: Along the lines of what victorl said earlier; visualizing the execution of the shot, which requires some knowledge of speed and spin requirement for the shot, greatly aids in being able to apply an efficient aim and stroke to that shot.

When someone is getting these 3 aspects together, they will execute shots with greater ease and accuracy, and get the feeling of pure stroking.

There may be more aspects which haven't come to mind.

Colin
 
Drop The Rock said:
I love this topic. Although I can't describe or quantify it, only compare it.

Ever hit a golf ball with a 7 iron and feel the difference between two shots that travel the exact same distance? TO ME, this comes from proper tempo and acceleration with the least amount of tension in my arms and hands, while maintaining uniform motion.

I used to play a ton of basketball and could always feel the difference between pushing and shooting. Pushing the ball was a result of near zero uniform motion and resulted in zero backspin. Shooting was a result of excellent tempo and maximum uniform motion.

I believe this applies to pool as well. I have heard many a pro, whether by podcast or in person, talk about hitting the ball pure. Some attribute it to tempo, others how light you hold the cue, acceleration etc.

For those that don't believe that this phenomenon exists please explain why.

For those that do, what is that x factor for you?
Click to expand...

As some others have pointed out, the simple answer is that essentially the cue ball only knows where it was hit and at what speed and at what angle. Nothing else like grip, accelerating, etc makes any difference unless they affect where the ball is hit or the speed or angle. There is no such thing as "pure" other than hitting the cue ball exactly where you intended, at the angle you intended and at the exact speed you intended. That is all "pure" is. I have more detail in a couple of my recent posts on this:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5266146&postcount=24
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5299961&postcount=11


See also Dr. Daves excellent information about this topic:
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/stroke.html#type
 
It's all about timing. You hear tennis and golf commentators (who are pros themselves) talk about the importance of timing. When a player's game is off, you will hear them say things like:

"He lost his timing."

"His timing isn't quite there yet."

"She need to find her timing."

With pool, there are two types of timing. The first is the obvious stroke timing. There is also another timing issue that players don't think about enough, and that's the timing with which you move around the table. If you start getting tentative and second-guessing yourself or start to rush, it changes the timing of your movement around the table and almost assuredly negatively affects your stroke timing.

You may get away with hitting some shots with accuracy with poor timing, but eventually it will catch up with you.
 
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Drop The Rock said:
Ever hit a golf ball with a 7 iron and feel the difference between two shots that travel the exact same distance? TO ME, this comes from proper tempo and acceleration with the least amount of tension in my arms and hands, while maintaining uniform motion.
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I haven't played golf in years but my typical experience supports your theory: normally hit a 7-iron 140 yards, but this shot is slightly downhill and about 137 yards to the target...so, you "ease up", slow down, loosen your grip and generally be more relaxed...and end up uncorking a 155-yard 7-iron right into the water!

As my Dad used to say "Tension is "used up" energy that never makes it to the club."

My pool analogy is my draw shot: if my stroke is tense (which it normally is), I'll get my normal draw. If I'm relaxed I end up drawing the ball FAR more than I anticipated -- like wanting to draw the CB two diamonds but ending up drawing it six! I use a lot more follow than draw.
 
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Hitting it Pure

Great Topic,
For me I believe the act of hitting it pure starts when you have all of your methods in tune from the way you look at the shot to the way you get down on it and stroke it.

If I am in sync everything lines up right and even the prestrokes are effortless because I know by the end of my shot routine the perfect amount of strokes will have been taken and I will be on target with the delivery having the appropriate room left in my stroke.

If you body is out of position it can influence your stroke and not only that but everything up to the stroke helps get you in the groove. I can tell if I have rushed a shot just a little bit and I can tell when Ive taken too long on the shot.

When Im hitting them purely everything is just right and the only way that happens for me is to know how I do everything that I do....and I do so it happens more these days than it ever has which is awesome.

Drop The Rock said:
I love this topic. Although I can't describe or quantify it, only compare it.

Ever hit a golf ball with a 7 iron and feel the difference between two shots that travel the exact same distance? TO ME, this comes from proper tempo and acceleration with the least amount of tension in my arms and hands, while maintaining uniform motion.

I used to play a ton of basketball and could always feel the difference between pushing and shooting. Pushing the ball was a result of near zero uniform motion and resulted in zero backspin. Shooting was a result of excellent tempo and maximum uniform motion.

I believe this applies to pool as well. I have heard many a pro, whether by podcast or in person, talk about hitting the ball pure. Some attribute it to tempo, others how light you hold the cue, acceleration etc.

For those that don't believe that this phenomenon exists please explain why.

For those that do, what is that x factor for you?
Click to expand...
 
Drop The Rock said:
I love this topic. Although I can't describe or quantify it, only compare it.

Ever hit a golf ball with a 7 iron and feel the difference between two shots that travel the exact same distance? TO ME, this comes from proper tempo and acceleration with the least amount of tension in my arms and hands, while maintaining uniform motion.

I used to play a ton of basketball and could always feel the difference between pushing and shooting. Pushing the ball was a result of near zero uniform motion and resulted in zero backspin. Shooting was a result of excellent tempo and maximum uniform motion.

I believe this applies to pool as well. I have heard many a pro, whether by podcast or in person, talk about hitting the ball pure. Some attribute it to tempo, others how light you hold the cue, acceleration etc.

For those that don't believe that this phenomenon exists please explain why.

For those that do, what is that x factor for you?
Click to expand...

When I practice my break, I very much notice this. Every once in a while, it seems as if everything felt very natural and the power goes through the roof with it. I'm guessing it's because my weight transfer was more in sync with my stroke than usual.
 
For me, the best feeling pool shot is when I really wallop the break and it has that sound to it, like a gun going off or something. There are alot of dynamics about a really great break that I love too; the energy that comes out of the pack as it explodes outwards, the cueball bouncing back and sticking, the balls crazily going everywhere and many disappearing. For sure too, when this happens I often immediately get into a higher gear and start really running out a ball or two better than the last rack. It happened to me this weekend in a tournament in Ocala. I really started hitting the break good and all of sudden every other shot seemed makeable and position easy. Pool is really addictive when you get into zone.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
It isn't obvious to me what that means. Can you elaborate?

pj
chgo
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I'll do my best. The terms 'hitting the ball too early' and 'hitting the ball too late' don't seem to be used in pool, but maybe they should. They're used in golf and they're used in tennis.

'Early' and 'late' are words that can only be attributed to time. With golf --- (because you are striking a stationary ball, like with pool) there is great emphasis on the position of the body parts at the point of contact, even though the contact is only for the briefest moment in time. Hitting the ball slightly too early or too late may not show all that much in the results, but the difference is there.

There are many ways you can approach a shot. Are you flicking your wrist, perhaps in a break shot to gain more power? Where is the flick during the stroke --- nanoseconds before impact? Right at impact? Where is your elbow? Where is your shoulder? The list is pretty long. Breaking is where you can really see when a player's timing is off or on. With mediocre players, it's more off than on.

It's more subtle with other strokes, but it's there. What are the pressure points in your hand doing at various points during your stroke --- just before impact, at impact? Do they change from shot to shot? What is your rate of acceleration?

"So what?" You say --- "As long as the point of impact is accurate and the force applied is accurate," right?

Well, you don't get there consistently without good timing.
 
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FranCrimi said:
I'll do my best. The terms 'hitting the ball too early' and 'hitting the ball too late' don't seem to be used in pool, but maybe they should. They're used in golf and they're used in tennis.

'Early' and 'late' are words that can only be attributed to time. With golf --- (because you are striking a stationary ball, like with pool) there is great emphasis on the position of the body parts at the point of contact, even though the contact is only for the briefest moment in time. Hitting the ball slightly too early or too late may not show all that much in the results, but the difference is there.

There are many ways you can approach a shot. Are you flicking your wrist, perhaps in a break shot to gain more power? Where is the flick during the stroke --- nanoseconds before impact? Right at impact? Where is your elbow? Where is your shoulder? The list is pretty long. Breaking is where you can really see when a player's timing is off or on. With mediocre players, it's more off than on.

It's more subtle with other strokes, but it's there. What are the pressure points in your hand doing at various points during your stroke --- just before impact, at impact? Do they change from shot to shot? What is your rate of acceleration?

"So what?" You say --- "As long as the point of impact is accurate and the force applied is accurate," right?

Well, you don't get there consistently without good timing.
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I love it when she talks all romantic like that :lovies:
 
FranCrimi said:
I'll do my best. The terms 'hitting the ball too early' and 'hitting the ball too late' don't seem to be used in pool, but maybe they should. They're used in golf and they're used in tennis.

'Early' and 'late' are words that can only be attributed to time. With golf --- (because you are striking a stationary ball, like with pool) there is great emphasis on the position of the body parts at the point of contact, even though the contact is only for the briefest moment in time. Hitting the ball slightly too early or too late may not show all that much in the results, but the difference is there.

There are many ways you can approach a shot. Are you flicking your wrist, perhaps in a break shot to gain more power? Where is the flick during the stroke --- nanoseconds before impact? Right at impact? Where is your elbow? Where is your shoulder? The list is pretty long. Breaking is where you can really see when a player's timing is off or on. With mediocre players, it's more off than on.

It's more subtle with other strokes, but it's there. What are the pressure points in your hand doing at various points during your stroke --- just before impact, at impact? Do they change from shot to shot? What is your rate of acceleration?

"So what?" You say --- "As long as the point of impact is accurate and the force applied is accurate," right?

Well, you don't get there consistently without good timing.
Click to expand...
Thanks for that very descriptive breakdown.

Your last statement sounds like you think stroke timing is mostly about being consistently accurate with hit & speed - I think so too. No indescribable forces or effects, just doing precisely what's needed on demand. Sounds easy, doesn't it? :)

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Thanks for that very descriptive breakdown.

Your last statement sounds like you think stroke timing is mostly about being consistently accurate with hit & speed - I think so too. No indescribable forces or effects, just doing precisely what's needed on demand. Sounds easy, doesn't it? :)

pj
chgo
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Yeah, we all wish it were easy. :)

Just one thing about the indescribable part. When the timing is just right, there really is a certain feel that goes along with it. The difference between something being perfectly timed and just a hair early or late results in a feeling that can't often be quantified or described verbally.

It might be a slight vibration in the hit that's just a little different, or a sound that is pitched slightly higher or lower.

But make no mistake about it -- It's there, and it's different.
 
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I disagree with this hitting the cue ball where you intended, how you intended, and at the speed you intended stuff as being what a pure hit feels like. Acceleration and tempo are extremely important along with follow through, which you can tell me all day long doesn't matter because of physics blah blah blah. Watching players who hit the ball vs. stroke and "push" shows a drastic difference in how their cue ball reacts and at what speeds it reacts.

Again, golf for comparison and say Shane's break which has a very slow pullback. I have a slow back swing and when I was golfing full time, could drive the ball as far if not farther than guys who had faster tempos. There is definitely something to be said about this.
 
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