Sounds like the cloth wasn't stretched consistently.
Hohmann loses to Ko because of the Cyclop balls
- Thread starter 9Ballr
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I think i mentioned that somewhere, but these people would rather blame the roll off on the balls....:bash::bash:
Do you really think there is any possibility that a company press release with his name attached to it would have any misinformation about their own product in it? Furthermore do you really think Ivan Lee would allow his name to be attached to a press release with misinformation about their product in it? There is no possibility that they put such an easily verifiable figure up accidentally, so the only straw you have left is them flat out lying about it. Ask yourself what would they have to gain by lying about something like that? Absolutely nothing.
Well in that case you also need a lab that can properly analyze the make up of the balls and accurately calculate the proportion of phenolic resin to other stuff. Phenolic resin, being a fairly complex polymer, would be much more difficult to test for than a base element, so you wouldn't simply be able to put a chip of a ball in a mass spectrometer and expect a percentage of phenolic resin to come out automatically.
When you want to know what ingredients went into a cake, you don't take the cake to a lab to get it analyzed, you ask the person who made it.
Ok, you have 4 possibilities here:
1) Aramith is lying.
2) Cyclop is lying.
3) Aramith doesn't know wtf they are putting in their product.
4) Cyclop failed at accurately analyzing the Aramith balls.
3 is so unlikely it's not even worth mentioning.
1 is also very unlikely because there is nothing to gain for Aramith by lying about their own product and a whole lot to lose if they are caught and a high chance of being caught considering people are now aware that resin content is apparently a thing that should matter to them.
2 is somewhat more likely as if Cyclop can convince people like you that they are producing a better product, you will defend them to your last dying breath, not to mention the extra sales by being able to claim the best quality balls on the market, but I will give them the benefit of the doubt in hopes that they are more professional than that.
That leaves the only real option as option 4, there are multiple factors that make this the most likely possibility. First, I doubt there are really any standard ways to find out the phrnolic resin content of a product suspected to be made of phenolic resin. Standard practice would usually be to just ask the manufacturer. If Cyclop or Aramith wanted to do something like that, they would have to come up with their own method to do it, which I doubt is worth the effort for either company. Second, even if there were some magical equipment that could come up with the exact percentage of resin content in a billiard ball, I doubt it would be worth while for Cyclop or Aramith to own. Finally, even if they did come up with their own method of finding the percentage or phenolic resin in a billiard ball, there is no guarantee it will be accurate for all types of phenolic resin of all different grades.
So you dismiss his hearsay that they Aramiths play better, but rely on hearsay that the reason Cyclop balls stay cleaner is due to higher resin content. Okay...
On top of them rolling crazy, and no table being big enough for how far off line they roll, I also don't like that it's crazy hard to tell the difference between the 6 and 7.
Also hate, as someone pointed out, that the cueball has this cloudy coating that is the outside and then it seems to get solid a 1/4 of an inch or into the ball.
This makes it very confusing to use these balls. And I do mean VERY.
These two things - on top of the unbelievable rolls where the cueball picks up life all on its own - is something 100% of pros complain about.
Yep....all 100% of them.
Certified!
Also hate, as someone pointed out, that the cueball has this cloudy coating that is the outside and then it seems to get solid a 1/4 of an inch or into the ball.
This makes it very confusing to use these balls. And I do mean VERY.
These two things - on top of the unbelievable rolls where the cueball picks up life all on its own - is something 100% of pros complain about.
Yep....all 100% of them.
Certified!
i have both cyclops set and centennials as well. they all play the same after they are played a few hours. and are used to the different colors.
no roll offs at all. i agree the tournament colors for the cyclops are not so conducive for playing unless you play with them a long long time exclusively.
i really like their tradition colored set. and certainly does stay cleaner much longer and cleans up more easily.
as far as what a pro likes who doesnt have any choice in where he plays or what equipment is provided for him complains about, just tell him that is how tournaments work.
as to arguing whether they had some bad balls at some time who cares thats all over with.
no roll offs at all. i agree the tournament colors for the cyclops are not so conducive for playing unless you play with them a long long time exclusively.
i really like their tradition colored set. and certainly does stay cleaner much longer and cleans up more easily.
as far as what a pro likes who doesnt have any choice in where he plays or what equipment is provided for him complains about, just tell him that is how tournaments work.
as to arguing whether they had some bad balls at some time who cares thats all over with.
I think we're pretty spoiled here in the states. I was actually very surprised to see Bergman say he'd prefer a certain set of balls. I suppose it makes sense, the ones you practice with or the ones that feel best to you, you'd like to play with those. I just don't think a good player should think like that is all. It probably gets a tad into Justin's head when he doesn't have those particular balls, which is never good.
This is pure conjecture but I bet you never heard efren complaining about balls. Those guys probably play with balls that have quite the variance between them over there in pi, and I personally feel like that's the best way to develop. Good players get on a table and get a feel for the balls, whether they know it or not, and that's it. End of story. You can't sling one of these gold crowns (or the balls) over your shoulder and go poolroom to poolroom as mcready used to put it.
Also, I hear more players saying the most ludicrous stuff about cueballs. I just think it's quite insane. If you can't adjust to a cueball and you're a pool player I mean go do something else. You ever hear what these guys are saying about cueballs like they'd play like willie mosconi with one cueball and a 12 year old girl with another. It's all in people's heads; I actually believe cloth is about 100 times more likely to be the cause of these "strange" cb reactions, but what do I know.
This is pure conjecture but I bet you never heard efren complaining about balls. Those guys probably play with balls that have quite the variance between them over there in pi, and I personally feel like that's the best way to develop. Good players get on a table and get a feel for the balls, whether they know it or not, and that's it. End of story. You can't sling one of these gold crowns (or the balls) over your shoulder and go poolroom to poolroom as mcready used to put it.
Also, I hear more players saying the most ludicrous stuff about cueballs. I just think it's quite insane. If you can't adjust to a cueball and you're a pool player I mean go do something else. You ever hear what these guys are saying about cueballs like they'd play like willie mosconi with one cueball and a 12 year old girl with another. It's all in people's heads; I actually believe cloth is about 100 times more likely to be the cause of these "strange" cb reactions, but what do I know.
I like this idea. With the ball marker it can be done. Play your next action match that is streamed like this and maybe get it to catch on with others.
As someone who has written hundreds of press releases I can assure you of two things: the top dog is not always aware of what's going out in every press release and two, there are all kinds of ways to spin the "truth" in a press release. Note: I did not say lie or provide misinformation but instead mean present the facts in a manner that favors your side.
And as I've said several times here (and you at long last have finally picked up): you need a lab test. No one is going to provide you with proprietary information, formulas, and processes about how they make their balls, even if you ask, "Pretty please."
Lastly, for reasons already mentioned numerous times, it is unknown at this time where the truth is at on this. You have come up with four possible scenarios. I can assure you that's overly simplistic by any measure and attempting to arrive at a conclusion based on just those four scenarios, as you have, is not only highly misleading, it's kinda nuts.
Lou Figueroa
I think a distinction needs to be made between what he prefers and which plays better.
As to the cleaner issue, that was not hearsay. That's first person accounts, including my own, and can be proven to be true. I don't need a press release on that, I can see it with my own two peepers every time I play with Cyclop balls and compare it to playing with my set of Aramiths.
Lou Figueroa
There was a CB roll off at one tournament two years ago and the problem was corrected within 24 hours by extraordinary efforts of the company. I believe there has been a more than reasonable cloth related explanation for what happened to Hohmann.
The Cyclop are widely available in traditional colors, so there is no problem distinguishing between the numbers.
We have no way of knowing any fact based numbers on what pros like. IMO, we all have preferences, even when a competing produce is better. Take low deflection vs traditional maple shafts. Some pros prefer one vs the other but that does not make one better than the other.
Lou Figueroa
can't believe I
have to explain that
Well so much for longer than a Allman Bros. song. Seriously, what's left to discuss/prove/disprove here? I've hit the current version of the 'clops and they play fine. I've hit a million Aramiths so i probably still prefer them but if Cyclops were on the table i wouldn't sweat it. Just my $.02 here, nothing more.
I agree.
Just as a general comment: being able to adjust to different equipment is a skill in and of itself. Some tournaments and pool halls use Aramiths or Centennials. At many pool halls these balls have miles and miles on them and there is often a pygmy CB to add to the fun. More and more pool halls are using Cyclop to go with their Diamond tables.
Other times you have to adjust to a measles v a red circle CB. At one major venue in the midwest, players are shuttled from GCs to a Diamond table, from tournament round to tournament round.
Sooooo, like I said, good players learn to adjust regardless of their preferences. I own several sets of balls and have come to peace with all of them. It's the price of being out in the world. OTOH, if you're just going to play in your basement all the time, certainly you should use whatever you prefer.
Overall, I think that sometimes -- when people complain about one set of balls or another -- I wonder whether they ever get out into the world. I've played in tournaments where the entire set of balls don't match -- management having replaced stolen 8balls and/or 9balls with spares from other sets that obviously don't match; red circle CBs that are so small and old they should be called pink circles; on tables that roll off or have gaffe pockets or tons of tears in them or a dead rail or two.
But oh my, gosh me!
God forbid they don't like the colors of a certain set or the way a particular CB plays, lol.
The translucency of the original Cyclop CB was part of an effort to make the CB more distinguishable to the Diamond Smart Table optical density sensor. And yes, the ball played differently than a red circle, which plays different from a measles CB.
Now there is the Cyclop red dot which is better matched and plays very near a red circle. People should try it. Manufacturers are usually trying to improve their product. GCs went from the GC1 to the GC5. Diamond went from the Red label to the Blue label and even Blue labels will have changes in the future.
Look at all the generations shaft makers have gone through, and for that matter, pool cue makers in general. Over the course of time they learn things about their product and player preferences.
As to the opinion of pros, take a look a tournament results. The same guys seem to do fine with the Cyclop balls regardless of what's in their heads.
Lou Figueroa
98% phenolic resin. There is no way to spin that. Either it is factual and you owe them an apology or you are calling them liars. They can't be at 58% phenolic resin and claim 98% without lying.
No, you don't. Also, yes they will, Aramith has already told us their "proprietary information" that is 98%. If you think it is wrong, you think they are lying. If you are trying to stay neutral, stop pushing the "higher phenolic content" line and apologize for pushing it before you were made aware that the 58% figure is more likely to be incorrect.
Those are the only four scenarios possible as both companies have made claims about the phenolic resin content of Aramith balls and the claims do not match, unfortunately for Cyclop, Aramith knows exactly what percent phenolic resin content their balls are made of, so they are the more reputable source on this info unless you want to call them liars, which is a fairly bold claim as you, yourself called Ivan Lee a reputable source.
You choose to believe Aramith's claim. I choose to believe Cyclop's claim. We need an independent lab test.
And yes IL is a reputable source. So is Paul Smith ;-)
BTW, though I am not a science guy I can personally observe that the way Cyclop balls play differently than Aramiths (CIT) and the fact they they stay cleaner longer, both appear to me to be consistent with a harder ball. How do you get a harder ball? More phenolic resin.
Lou Figueroa
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I posted on Facebook and have been getting some interesting feedback from pro and higher level players. I have not seen one pro player who likes Cyclop over Aramith though. I think you would be hard pressed to find a pro player who would be choosing Cyclop over Aramith who does not have monetary gain from it.
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I've never heard a pro who preferred Cyclop either.
They're using them because they have to.
Cyclop is giving sets with cash to tournaments just so they can dominate the events.
Q: What was wrong with Aramith Pro anyway to begin with for this mess to take over the pool world????
A: NOTHING! Not a damn thing.
This is a disaster.
Obviously the pros don't know what they're talking about
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Actually pool balls are hugely important. Try switching the cueball for one only 3-4grams lighter, and tell me that doesn't change the game? That ball would still be well within spec. That's not the only factor, though. The elasticity of the cueball is also important, along with the finish. When a ball has been an industry standard for as long as Aramith has, I think one should have a damned good reason to switch it out. No such reason exist with the Cyclop.
I actually think it's a good thing that the pros are standing up for the sport, by insisting on good equipment, otherwise we might end up with for instance small tables with crappy rails being used in WPC etc...The best pros want the best possible chance to do well, and they do that with consistent, quality equipment. Any random factors like shoddy manufacturing and weird friction effects benefit the lesser player, since the pros high precision game is more vulnerable to these changes. The pro will always be the favourite, but this makes the margins smaller. That is bad news for the guy who depend on that small difference to make a living. Even if you don't give a rats posterior about the pros, I think most of us would be wanting the game to be played at the highest possible level.
It's a damned shame that for some reason insist on high quality equipment in all other sports except pool. I don't know why that is. There is a whole "reverse snobbery" thing going on with cues and all other sorts of equipment in pool with people bragging about their abilities on shoddy equipment. I think it is reasonable to debate what does and doesn't constitute good equipment, but when there is a consensus or at least a very strong bias towards one type of equipment I think one should do ones very best to listen to it. Any changes to significant pieces of equipment should be carefully thought out and tested in less crucial tournaments, rather than be introduced in major ones. "Beta testing" equipment in a major tournament would never be done in a properly organized sport or there would at least be a significant backlash it it somehow went wrong. Pool may not have the money of other sports, but there are people in the organizations making good livings from keeping an eye on the specs etc...They certainly have no excuse for sleeping on the job, like they have been.
.Actually pool balls are hugely important. Try switching the cueball for one only 3-4grams lighter, and tell me that doesn't change the game? That ball would still be well within spec. That's not the only factor, though. The elasticity of the cueball is also important, along with the finish. When a ball has been an industry standard for as long as Aramith has, I think one should have a damned good reason to switch it out. No such reason exist with the Cyclop.
I actually think it's a good thing that the pros are standing up for the sport, by insisting on good equipment, otherwise we might end up with for instance small tables with crappy rails being used in WPC etc...The best pros want the best possible chance to do well, and they do that with consistent, quality equipment. Any random factors like shoddy manufacturing and weird friction effects benefit the lesser player, since the pros high precision game is more vulnerable to these changes. The pro will always be the favourite, but this makes the margins smaller. That is bad news for the guy who depend on that small difference to make a living. Even if you don't give a rats posterior about the pros, I think most of us would be wanting the game to be played at the highest possible level.
It's a damned shame that for some reason insist on high quality equipment in all other sports except pool. I don't know why that is. There is a whole "reverse snobbery" thing going on with cues and all other sorts of equipment in pool with people bragging about their abilities on shoddy equipment. I think it is reasonable to debate what does and doesn't constitute good equipment, but when there is a consensus or at least a very strong bias towards one type of equipment I think one should do ones very best to listen to it. Any changes to significant pieces of equipment should be carefully thought out and tested in less crucial tournaments, rather than be introduced in major ones. "Beta testing" equipment in a major tournament would never be done in a properly organized sport or there would at least be a significant backlash it it somehow went wrong. Pool may not have the money of other sports, but there are people in the organizations making good livings from keeping an eye on the specs etc...They certainly have no excuse for sleeping on the job, like they have been.
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