How CTE reconciles with Ghost Ball - My Theory (long)

Hi John, you offered to buy my cte/pro one DVD if Stan refused to allow me to return it. Stan let me know he is offering no returns on his DVD sales. Are you still willing to take the return for Stan or should I sell it in the for sale section? I sent you a pm but you haven't responded and you said this is the best way to contact you. Thanks.
 
Folks, I have to get CTE out of my head so I get back to work and also just play when I go to play.....
John, I know you're primarily interested in persuading Dr. Dave, Mike Page, etc., but I just wanted to say that I think you deserve a great deal of applause for the amount of thought and effort you put into trying to clarify the issues here. I'm very much looking forward to absorbing your post (read it once) and watching the video (I'm on dialup so that will take some time). Thanks again for putting forth your ideas in such a straightforward and thorough fashion. Maybe everyone concerned will finally be able to move toward some common understanding.

Jim
 
Hi, John, thanks for taking the time to lay out your theory.

But let me ask you a question:

For those of us who CAN vsualize a ghost ball, accurately positioned, and then make the necessary compensations for spin, throw, cling--does CTE still retain any advantage?
 
Hi, John, thanks for taking the time to lay out your theory.

But let me ask you a question:

For those of us who CAN vsualize a ghost ball, accurately positioned, and then make the necessary compensations for spin, throw, cling--does CTE still retain any advantage?

Sean Leinen says that he sees the GB as if it were a real ball. I say that if you can do that and it's comfortable for you then why fix what is not broken.

Get this, one of my friends owns a pool room here. He is a very very good player and we are playing and he is shooting balls in and his body motions "look like" CTE. I KNOW that he definitely isn't using CTE. But I think he isn't using GB.

So I ask him what he is aiming at. He says I see a ghost ball and shoot at that.

Lionel Richie I think said once in an interview that he sees the music in his head as real objects floating there.

What has been driving me crazy for 8 years since meeting Hal is HOW do his systems work. And especially since learning CTE this past year I have been getting literally crazy over it as can be seen in my posts.

All I wanted to do is figure out where and how it coincides with GB because it HAS TO in order to work. For me personally I can't use GB all that well because I mis-estimate the GB position. If you are someone who doesn't have ttrouble with "seeing" the GB like Sean or my friend then I think you are fortunate because it's the easiest method - see GB ball hit GB ball.
 
John, I know you're primarily interested in persuading Dr. Dave, Mike Page, etc., but I just wanted to say that I think you deserve a great deal of applause for the amount of thought and effort you put into trying to clarify the issues here. I'm very much looking forward to absorbing your post (read it once) and watching the video (I'm on dialup so that will take some time). Thanks again for putting forth your ideas in such a straightforward and thorough fashion. Maybe everyone concerned will finally be able to move toward some common understanding.

Jim

You're welcome. Actually though the first person I wanted to convince is myself.

I honestly feel like a fish out of water when it comes to the physics of pool because I am. Ask Mikey Frost, I can't even add up two lost bets and send him the right amount of money.

It's just hard to continue to be a cheerleader for a system that I know works but I can't (couldn't) explain how or why it works technically. I knew that SOMEWHERE there had to be a simple explanation of how it lines up with the GB. Something other than subconscious adjustment.
 
Good post, even though i don't use any aiming system, i am interested in them

I was paying close attention to how i aim when practicing last night. I just walk into the shot, get down on it, see if it feels right then pull the trigger

Works most of the time :grin:

Interestingly, on some of the shots i miss, before cueing the shot, there is a little voice at the back of my head telling me it doesn't look quite right, but sometimes i ignore this little voice (maybe out of laziness, can't be naffed getting up and realigning) and thinking my talent can make the adjustment. Not so
 
Hi John, you offered to buy my cte/pro one DVD if Stan refused to allow me to return it. Stan let me know he is offering no returns on his DVD sales. Are you still willing to take the return for Stan or should I sell it in the for sale section? I sent you a pm but you haven't responded and you said this is the best way to contact you. Thanks.

Sure absolutely.

If you don't mind let me check with Stan just to be sure that I am not stepping on his toes and there hasn't been any miscommunication.

We are going to sell his DVD so I am confident that yours will be sold quickly.
 
With the edge you have a consistent reference point and as you reprogram your memory you find all shots become more effortless.
My 2cents
 
It's very simple. CTE works because it forces a player to get thier eyes in the correct position. Once your there you can see the shot naturally.

This will just get you there though. You still have to do the fine tuning and coordinate the eyes,mind and the arm......................

But just getting there is so huge because most players just don't get there naturally.
 
John,
Thanks for the long observations.
My take away from it is your observation that CTE is the approximate mid point between the straight in shot and the thin 90 degree cut angle shot. It’s a good stance to start with before the small adjustments you mention.

I also appreciate your observation that the center to center, CTE and the GB to CB lines converge at the center of the CB and proceed in back of the CB to the shooters eye creating angles.

What we all find difficult is to define the geometry of CTE in 2 dimensions (viewed from above) for what makes it work is our perception of 3D perspective (viewed from the shooters eye/s). As the distance between the CB and OB from our eye/s increases, the OB appears to get smaller and the angles you describe behind the CB becomes narrower.

This narrowing of the angle forces a new stance (closer to the initial CTE) for the same cut angle at different distances between the CB and OB and eye/s although the shot proportionally appears to be the same. Another way of saying what you said….I believe.

As you know, I am a double distance aim shooter and only use GB when the CB and OB are very close to each other. I have not embraced CTE because it isn’t parsimonious with the shift, bridge distance adjustments and pivot that need to be mastered and stored in memory.

Where both the GB and DD aiming breaks down is on thin cuts like 85-90 degrees for the aim line is away from the discernable OB edge and on the felt or cushion. So I have found that CTE with the secondary aim point of the CB edge to the opposite OB edge; ½ cut tip offset and pivot is becoming more accurate…for me.

These recent threads since the deliveries of the DVD have converged with PMs from Spidy, Mike and Pete have made me experience an epiphany …the light has been turned on.

I realize that there are many who will benefit from CTE, once it is explained in these recent threads for we all don’t visualize diagrams or interpret verbal descriptions the same.

I appreciate your persistence, descriptions and demonstrations.

Thank you for all you do and have done to advance CTE.
:):)
 
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This thread needs a bump...CTE = GB?

CTE=GB.jpg

Just saying.:wink:
 
This thread needs a bump...CTE = GB?

View attachment 169814

Just saying.:wink:


No, CTE does not = GB :-)

CTE does however bring you to the same place that a GB would bring you if the GB were able to be seen and it's center were physically present to be used as an aiming reference.

I don't really know what your diagram shows in this regard but it is very pretty.

Going to try and upload another video later. I made a little Ghost Ball indicator and taped it to the table. My back is killing me though so I don't know how good the video will be.

I do want to give some major rep to Stan Shuffet and Dave Segal though. Dave sent me some info that got me thinking along this path. The day before I got Stan's video I was messing with CTE using my CueSight Training Ball <-----------(insert advertising here) and I noticed what I have described to you.

Then I get Stan's video and in it in one of the chapters he confirms what I discovered. I don't know if he knows how significant his segment is on bridge hand placement but it is.

To make it clear to everyone, the night I wrote the inital post in this thread I went out and won 18,000 rmb (about $2700) up against a good player with a lot of pressure on me in the last set. Needless to say this was on my mind while I was playing to the effect of I have to prove that I am right. Of course winning does not prove I am right. But I can tell you that I ate my cooking that night and I feel very strongly that I am right.
 
John,
Thanks for the long observations.
My take away from it is your observation that CTE is the approximate mid point between the straight in shot and the thin 90 degree cut angle shot. It’s a good stance to start with before the small adjustments you mention.

I also appreciate your observation that the center to center, CTE and the GB to CB lines converge at the center of the CB and proceed in back of the CB to the shooters eye creating angles.

What we all find difficult is to define the geometry of CTE in 2 dimensions (viewed from above) for what makes it work is our perception of 3D perspective (viewed from the shooters eye/s). As the distance between the CB and OB from our eye/s increases, the OB appears to get smaller and the angles you describe behind the CB becomes narrower.

This narrowing of the angle forces a new stance (closer to the initial CTE) for the same cut angle at different distances between the CB and OB and eye/s although the shot proportionally appears to be the same. Another way of saying what you said….I believe.

As you know, I am a double distance aim shooter and only use GB when the CB and OB are very close to each other. I have not embraced CTE because it isn’t parsimonious with the shift, bridge distance adjustments and pivot that need to be mastered and stored in memory.

Where both the GB and DD aiming breaks down is on thin cuts like 85-90 degrees for the aim line is away from the discernable OB edge and on the felt or cushion. So I have found that CTE with the secondary aim point of the CB edge to the opposite OB edge; ½ cut tip offset and pivot is becoming more accurate…for me.

These recent threads since the deliveries of the DVD have converged with PMs from Spidy, Mike and Pete have made me experience an epiphany …the light has been turned on.

I realize that there are many who will benefit from CTE, once it is explained in these recent threads for we all don’t visualize diagrams or interpret verbal descriptions the same.

I appreciate your persistence, descriptions and demonstrations.

Thank you for all you do and have done to advance CTE.
:):)

You're welcome. To be honest I don't think I have done anything to advance CTE and probably have turned a few people off with my excessive cheerleading. Pat Johnson would most likely still be here if I hadn't responded to his condescension with plenty of my own sarcasm.

What I think is important though is that if we start trying to diagram this from the cueball----->object ball--------->pocket relationship then it will never work to understand it.

This is where things break down because GB is easily diagrammed with that relationship. ALL GB diagrams can start with the GB------->pocket and that's enough for any person to understand in seconds with no questions needed.

Kind of like viewing Google Earth sometimes zooming out to show the larger picture reveals the directions better than street view.

When the CTE Line is extended back through the Cue Ball to the shooter then to me it becomes clearer where the bridge hand goes and what sort of pivot to center ball produces the Shot Line.

Dave Segal's Shot Circle, Stan Shuffet's eyes lead-body follows type of instructions become much clearer at that point.

And to me once you can see the Shot Line as given to you by starting with the CTE line then you can move your bridge hand anywhere you like as long as the cuestick stays on that line. How big is this? Well, how about finding the shot line when you are jacked up over a ball and must bridge at one point only?

So you can do it all "in the air" and find the shot line and then simply put your hand down and be on the right line.

So then you don't have to worry about things like bridge distance, you can bridge at 5" or 18" whatever is comfortable.

And here is the thing with distance. The CTE line is the same whether the object ball is two feet away or eight feet away. The amount of the pivot is the same - be it a half ball mechanical pivot or a one tip pivot as described on Stan's DVD - it the same every shot.

What changes with distance is the angle of the shot line relative to the CTE line.

But guess what? Coming out of the back of the cueball to the bridge hand the difference from widest to narrowest is minimal. Thus the shooter can rely on the CTE line and the bridge hand placement + pivot to bring him to the shot line even if he doesn't know the exact angle of the shot line.

This is where "feel" comes into the picture.

With a little practice seeing the CTE line at distance and a little practice putting the bridge down on the CTE line (with the bridge V just off the CTE line) and the cut tip pointing at the edge of the object ball the shooter can start to see and feel what's right.

HERESY cries the CTE Hieracrchy, "we knew it" shouts the Scientists.

:-)

But it's not all feel or subconscious adjustment.

It's "feel" on steroids.

Because the CTE line gives you not only the starting alignment FROM the cueball to the object ball to the pocket. In other words the CTE line says stand here if you want ANY CHANCE at making this ball.

Then the CTE line comes back through the cue ball and says - put your hand on me and swing the cue to center ball and you SHOULD be on target.

That's the basics of it and is why some people "get it" right away and others struggle.

Some people are like cool, I see that - works awesome. And other people are like bridge hand where? Pivot how much? Ass pivot? How far away to bridge? What offsets? The only thing that everyone is somewhat clear on is that the starting point is the center of the cueball to the edge of the object ball.

But even that isn't totally clear when Dave Segal talks about outermost edges and poking your head out.

The point is that there is a certain amount of getting used to coming into the ball a different way that people need to work on. There are nuances that need to be practiced. CTE is not a 1-2-3 prescription to never missing. But it is a damn good guideline to getting to the SHOT LINE for any shot.

I certainly believe that you could work out a perfect table for placement of the bridge V to the side of the CTE line for every type of cue ball - object ball distance. I am sure of it given that no matter what the shot is there is a set range from the CTE line where the bridge V can be placed in order to pivot to center ball and be on the shot line.

But I don't think that it's needed because of the feel component. I do think that once you use the CTE line then your focus becomes so honed that the feel part of aiming is diminished to an ever so slight movement of the bridge hand when placing it on the CTE line.

And I do think that there are many ways to achieve the same thing, including your Double the Distance, 90/90, basically anything which allows the shooter to use the real balls to measure and align with works. As does the Ghost Ball system for those who can accurately imagine the ghost ball's placement. After all you have to have a real ball to start with.

I just think it is important that all system do reconcile with GB because at the end of the day in order to be valid they must send the cueball right through the GB.

GB has to be the litmus test for an aiming system and the aiming system has to show HOW the system brings the cue stick in line with the GB.

For me, NOW, finally, this is clear. Last night I showed it to my wife and she got it right away. She is not a pool player.

I could show Pat Johnson how CTE works now. :-)
 
Hi JB :)

i love your enthusiasm more and more-- thx for the time you invested to make the little video. I m sure most ppl enjoyed it!
Even if have still not had a lesson with a person how has the knowledge of a CTE based system, after your vid i will try to test it out on my own now, bc i m excited.
Your demonstration was really exciting and it forces me to test it now solo-without a lesson by a qualified person :p I m extremly curious if it will work without gettin 1vs1 information/lesson.

Thx again and kudos for your enthusiasm again JB, pool needs ppl like you-no matter what we re talking about. Just ppl like you, who are trying to help someone to understand will bring ppl further (no matter if it s about cte, kicking, etc. etc).

JB: delete your mailbox, tried many times to send a PM :) but always felt,

Rep for your work,

Ingo
 
And here is the thing with distance. The CTE line is the same whether the object ball is two feet away or eight feet away. The amount of the pivot is the same - be it a half ball mechanical pivot or a one tip pivot as described on Stan's DVD - it the same every shot.

What changes with distance is the angle of the shot line relative to the CTE line.

But guess what? Coming out of the back of the cueball to the bridge hand the difference from widest to narrowest is minimal. Thus the shooter can rely on the CTE line and the bridge hand placement + pivot to bring him to the shot line even if he doesn't know the exact angle of the shot line.

This is where "feel" comes into the picture.
You're now finally realizing what many of the "scientists" have been saying for quite some time. Kudos to you.
 
Parsimonious Indeed

Ah, then you don't know of the real way to aim ... I assumed you read the thread ... sorry.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=210645

:)

Here is the link http://vimeo.com/17200520

Here is the password without the quotes--> "thanks dave"

CTE has always left me confused because I couldn't wrap my brain around the pivot and all the other alignment requirements. If I need to learn to do so many new things at once, my poor little head starts to short circuit and rejects accepting further assignments.:o

The edge of ferrule system shown in this video is beautiful in its simplicity, parsimonious, in fact. :grin: Yea, I had to look it up. "A principle that states that the simplest explanation that explains the greatest number of observations is preferred to more complex explanations." Just what the doctor ordered for MY overworked shot making processor.

I have been in a slump of sorts lately and I think this system might help. Thanks very much for posting this video.

Rep to you sir.

Courtney
 
CTE has always left me confused because I couldn't wrap my brain around the pivot and all the other alignment requirements. If I need to learn to do so many new things at once, my poor little head starts to short circuit and rejects accepting further assignments.:o

The edge of ferrule system shown in this video is beautiful in its simplicity, parsimonious, in fact. :grin: Yea, I had to look it up. "A principle that states that the simplest explanation that explains the greatest number of observations is preferred to more complex explanations." Just what the doctor ordered for MY overworked shot making processor.

I have been in a slump of sorts lately and I think this system might help. Thanks very much for posting this video.

Rep to you sir.

Courtney

The edge is a constant distance and will not work for the thick cut or the thin cut depending on the diameter of the end your shaft/ferrule.

Just sayin.:wink:
 
No, CTE does not = GB :-)

CTE does however bring you to the same place that a GB would bring you if the GB were able to be seen and it's center were physically present to be used as an aiming reference.

I don't really know what your diagram shows in this regard but it is very pretty.

Going to try and upload another video later. I made a little Ghost Ball indicator and taped it to the table. My back is killing me though so I don't know how good the video will be.

I do want to give some major rep to Stan Shuffet and Dave Segal though. Dave sent me some info that got me thinking along this path. The day before I got Stan's video I was messing with CTE using my CueSight Training Ball <-----------(insert advertising here) and I noticed what I have described to you.

Then I get Stan's video and in it in one of the chapters he confirms what I discovered. I don't know if he knows how significant his segment is on bridge hand placement but it is.

To make it clear to everyone, the night I wrote the inital post in this thread I went out and won 18,000 rmb (about $2700) up against a good player with a lot of pressure on me in the last set. Needless to say this was on my mind while I was playing to the effect of I have to prove that I am right. Of course winning does not prove I am right. But I can tell you that I ate my cooking that night and I feel very strongly that I am right.

I thought that you were looking for a CTE to the GB analogy...sorry I failed you.:confused:
 
I really apologyze for chiming in on another CTE thread - all I can say is that you guys need to start shooting by feel.

The other night I was talking to Mike Sigel and he says that he uses ENGLISH ON EVERY SHOT. Just to make sure I heard him right, he said it again. And he doesn't have a method of aiming. He just feels the ball into the hole. He says all the pros do this - Varner, Hall, Earl - they know how to use that little bitty English to get the desired results.

So, wh can't you CTE guys throw English into your anologies? It will serve only to shoot your theories down the toilet.

When is someone going to follow my advise on how to shoot by feel?!!!!! Throw 15 balls out on the table and shoot them all with top right, then go around the horn - side right etc. Then mix it up - shoot softly, shoot a rack with medium speed. Or, use all top side with running English. The important thing here is NOT to worry if you make the shot, but rather letting your mind gain the knowledge NATURALLY of where the object and cue ball go.

And, most importantly of all, you need to learn how to follow through and improve your stroke - the KEY to aiming. When your stroke is on you will be aiming a lot better, NATURALLY. 25% of my time is shooting with my eyes closed - concentrating only on following throw straight without hitches and jabbing. Mike Sigel said I needed to improve on my follow through, so I dreamed up this method myself, AND IT WORKS!!!

Good luck to you JB. End that frustration. Try a new approach.
 
I really apologyze for chiming in on another CTE thread - all I can say is that you guys need to start shooting by feel.

Well, you know I'm the guy who believes in using the edges of the cue shaft for serious precision. I think pivoting your cue is just plain silly. Anyway, most all the shots I shoot are by feel, but I play 14.1 mostly and sometimes you have to shoot very tough angles into small pocket openings, in these situations there's nothing like the edge of the shaft for accuracy with any english you need to use, it doesn't matter with that technique.

Here's an example when it comes in very very handy. Only shot is the 15 in the side. Here I need the help.

CueTable Help

 
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