How do these diamond tables play so badly? vid

[iusedtoberich]

Not sure if you saw the post, but I had a Red Label Diamond that (later I learned) banked nearly a diamond short from middle pocket to corner, and was EXTREMELY speed sensitive on those cross corners. I practiced heavily for Derby one year and had Morra down 2-1 in the first round of the One Pocket (the year he won the Banks), and simply could not put down either of the cross corners I got a shot at to finish him off. That table cost me my first win against a pro.

Being an amateur who doesn't play that much, I couldn't adjust to how differently the Blue Labels banked. Got a Matchroom Blue Label coming in a week. I will definitely test out the rails before ai let the installer leave.

Is the table actually coming from a prior MR tournament? That would be neat.

 

[dr_dave]

Correct. The standard through-diamond 2-to-1 system does not work on most Diamond tables (but comes very close on most other brands). For more info, see the Diamonds banking short resource page and:

I'd be interested in seeing the results on a Blue Label Diamond. You make the claim that "most" Diamonds bank short, butyou only tested a Red Label in the video.

I also have careful test results for a 7' Blue Label Diamond here: TP B.28 – Sliding-Bank-Shot Table Comparisons From Careful Measurements.

I have also played on many Blue Labels tables over the years (7' and 9'). Not one of them played "on system" for 2-to-1 through-diamond kicks. They all played short, some very short. I always joke to myself: "This is a Diamond, you better aim to go almost a diamond long!"

 

[ShortBusRuss]

Is the table actually coming from a prior MR tournament? That would be neat.

Yup. From the Fulda, Germany event. It's the super tight pockets, that I "assume" is the same as at Derby. If they end up being too tight, I will probably have the table mechanic put thinner pocket facings on the first recover. I hear the non AccuStat arena tables will be going back to 4 3/8" at Derby. The only proviso is that it is a three piece slate, versus 1 piece. It wws all they had available, and likely easier to transport when I leave Germany.

I don't really care if they bank a little short, as long as they are consistent with how the Derby tables play. For One Pocket, the ability to shorten up banks on balls close to the rail, or where there is a possible kiss, is what makes Diamonds a pleasure to play on, for me personally.

 

[JoeyInCali]

He's my 1999 red label 8' (replaced artemis cushions like 12 years ago, but unmodified geometry, I bought it used out of a pub) at 45% humidity. 8 year old 860 (come to think of it, the rail cloth dates back to 2011, I only did the bed last time I moved). I did this in all 4 corners with the same results every time.

I definitely hit it with center follow, aimed through the diamond. Trust me, my fargo is 000.00.

That seems impossible.

 

[iusedtoberich]

I also have careful test results for a 7' Blue Label Diamond here: TP B.28 – Sliding-Bank-Shot Table Comparisons From Careful Measurements.

I have also played on many blue label tables over the years (7' and 9'). Not one of them played "on system" for 2-to-1 through-diamond kicks. They all played short, some very short. I always joke to myself: "This is a Diamond, you better aim to go almost a diamond long!"

Colorado is relatively dry on average, correct?

I live in Atlanta now, and the top player’s room in the area has 2 9’ blue Diamonds, and 25 GC 4’s and 5’s. When playing a standard 9 ball position shot 2 rails out of the corner on the Diamonds, the CB can track towards the side pocket so much it almost scratches. The GC’s 5 feet from it play normal.

 

[jtaylor996]

Not sure if you saw the post, but I had a Red Label Diamond that (later I learned) banked nearly a diamond short from middle pocket to corner, and was EXTREMELY speed sensitive on those cross corners. I practiced heavily for Derby one year and had Morra down 2-1 in the first round of the One Pocket (the year he won the Banks), and simply could not put down either of the cross corners I got a shot at to finish him off. That table cost me my first win against a pro.

Being an amateur who doesn't play that much, I couldn't adjust to how differently the Blue Labels banked. Got a Matchroom Blue Label coming in a week. I will definitely test out the rails before ai let the installer leave.

Glen told me to check rail bolt torque. Other than that I’ve not done anything to my table to make it play (close enough to) “on system”. Maybe at higher humidities it will go short again. If so maybe I’ll try the armor all thing.

Make sure the installers check the rail bolt torque with a torque wrench.

 

[muskyed]

Jtaylor I agree, i was commenting about the video where they shot a pair of balls aimed at the diamond and it looked to end up about a ball width from the corner pocket. If I shoot the cueball to the same spot, I also would end up a balls width from the corner pocket.
How on thst other video they ended up a whole diamond off is the million dollar question.

 

[ShortBusRuss]

Colorado is relatively dry on average, correct?

I live in Atlanta now, and the top player’s room in the area has 2 9’ blue Diamonds, and 25 GC 4’s and 5’s. When playing a standard 9 ball position shot 2 rails out of the corner on the Diamonds, the CB can track towards the side pocket so much it almost scratches. The GC’s 5 feet from it play normal.

Hey man... Does Cliff Joyner still live in Atlanta? If so, I want Skype/Messnger One Pocket lessons, if this is something Cliff might be interested in.

 

[dr_dave]

Colorado is relatively dry on average, correct?

Yes, except when it is foggy or raining (which isn't often). The 9' Red Label and 7' bar box I tested were in relatively dry conditions in Fort Collins. But the 9' Blue Labels I mentioned have been in various places. The most short I've seen were Blue Label bar boxes at Buffalo Billiards in New Orleans. The condition were warm, humid, and dirty, but it was still shocking how short the tables played. I literally had to aim medium-angle 1-rail kicks to go about a "diamond" long (to have them not come up short).

I live in Atlanta now, and the top player’s room in the area has 2 9’ blue Diamonds, and 25 GC 4’s and 5’s. When playing a standard 9 ball position shot 2 rails out of the corner on the Diamonds, the CB can track towards the side pocket so much it almost scratches. The GC’s 5 feet from it play normal.

I'm not surprised.

 

[jtaylor996]

That seems impossible.

I'm not complaining.

 

[iusedtoberich]

@dr_dave have you looked closely at the cushion design of carom tables? They rebound faster then pool tables, but play longer. The rail speed seems well matched to the ultra fast simonis 300 bed speed. It’s interesting both the Diamond rail and the carom rail bounce the ball faster, but the angle is completely different.

 

[dr_dave]

@dr_dave have you looked closely at the cushion design of carom tables? They rebound faster then pool tables, but play longer. The rail speed seems well matched to the ultra fast simonis 300 bed speed. It’s interesting both the Diamond rail and the carom rail bounce the ball faster, but the angle is completely different.

Sorry, but I have zero experience with carom tables.

 

[The_JV]

If a table plays weird during a tournament does it really matter? Both players have to deal with whatever the table throws at them, nobody has an advantage in a situation like this so why the big deal?? You don't enter a tournament to beat the table, just the other player.

I'm actually on the complete opposite side of this. IMHO, I don't play the opponent, I play the table. My goal is to perform at my peak, not combat the other guy holding a cue.

Why bother practicing if you can't expect the physics of the game to remain at least close to constant on various tables...? I'm stretching that a bit, but it holds true in terms of banks.

The subject matter of this thread, is exactly why I don't embrace bank shots in my game. I might bank a shot once in a few dozen games...., maybe. You simply can't count on the manufacturers, mechanics and climate to all be on the same page.

 

[realkingcobra]

Yes, except when it is foggy or raining (which isn't often). The 9' Red Label and 7' bar box I tested were in relatively dry conditions in Fort Collins. But the 9' Blue Labels I mentioned have been in various places. The most short I've seen were Blue Label bar boxes at Buffalo Billiards in New Orleans. The condition were warm, humid, and dirty, but it was still shocking how short the tables played. I literally had to aim medium-angle 1-rail kicks to go about a "diamond" long (to have them not come up short).




I'm not surprised.

And

I'm actually on the complete opposite side of this. IMHO, I don't play the opponent, I play the table. My goal is to perform at my peak, not combat the other guy holding a cue.

Why bother practicing if you can't expect the physics of the game to remain at least close to constant on various tables...? I'm stretching that a bit, but it holds true in terms of banks.

This subject matter of this thread, is exactly why I don't embrace bank shots in my game. I might bank a shot once in a few dozen games...., maybe. You simply can't count on the manufacturers, mechanics and climate to all be on the same page.

You've obviously never spent much time traveling around looking for gambling action. If you had, you'd have learned to play on tables with the slate showing through the cloth where you rack the balls, literally racking the 1 ball on the slate, not to mention having to pick the cushion up on an end rail so you could try banking a ball off it instead of ski jumping the object ball right off the table. As a seasoned player, if you wanted to leave with the money, you had to learn now only how to play the table, you had to learn how to play your opponents. If you don't focus as much on how your opponents play, as well as how the table plays, then you'll have failed to learn your opponents strengths and weaknesses, in order to avoid, or use them against your opponents in order to win.

Keep in mind, if all your attention is focused on you and the table, you forget the table don't shoot back, and miss paying attention to the opponents that do!!

 

[Texas Carom Club]

Sorry, but I have zero experience with carom tables.

so why dont you get some

 

[KillerWhalePool]

And
You've obviously never spent much time traveling around looking for gambling action. If you had, you'd have learned to play on tables with the slate showing through the cloth where you rack the balls, literally racking the 1 ball on the slate, not to mention having to pick the cushion up on an end rail so you could try banking a ball off it instead of ski jumping the object ball right off the table. As a seasoned player, if you wanted to leave with the money, you had to learn now only how to play the table, you had to learn how to play your opponents. If you don't focus as much on how your opponents play, as well as how the table plays, then you'll have failed to learn your opponents strengths and weaknesses, in order to avoid, or use them against your opponents in order to win.

Keep in mind, if all your attention is focused on you and the table, you forget the table don't shoot back, and miss paying attention to the opponents that do!!

This guy is very accurate on road playing. I did that back in the day, and you had to know a lot about the tables, like he mentioned, and the limits to which you could push your opponent to get in his wallet. You also need to know which ones wouldn’t lose more than a $20 bill, but wouldn’t mind trying to take your paycheck. And the locksmiths, always looking for a lock.

 

[flyvirginiaguy]

And
You've obviously never spent much time traveling around looking for gambling action. If you had, you'd have learned to play on tables with the slate showing through the cloth where you rack the balls, literally racking the 1 ball on the slate, not to mention having to pick the cushion up on an end rail so you could try banking a ball off it instead of ski jumping the object ball right off the table. As a seasoned player, if you wanted to leave with the money, you had to learn now only how to play the table, you had to learn how to play your opponents. If you don't focus as much on how your opponents play, as well as how the table plays, then you'll have failed to learn your opponents strengths and weaknesses, in order to avoid, or use them against your opponents in order to win.

Keep in mind, if all your attention is focused on you and the table, you forget the table don't shoot back, and miss paying attention to the opponents that do!!

lol... I have been in many old places like this over the years. You are not playing good pool until you have conquered completely dead rails, slow cloth, a little slate showing, heavy oversized cue balls, and nice slant in the leveling.

 

[realkingcobra]

Yes, except when it is foggy or raining (which isn't often). The 9' Red Label and 7' bar box I tested were in relatively dry conditions in Fort Collins. But the 9' Blue Labels I mentioned have been in various places. The most short I've seen were Blue Label bar boxes at Buffalo Billiards in New Orleans. The condition were warm, humid, and dirty, but it was still shocking how short the tables played. I literally had to aim medium-angle 1-rail kicks to go about a "diamond" long (to have them not come up short).




I'm not surprised.

 

[realkingcobra]

lol... I have been in many old places like this over the years. You are not playing good pool until you have conquered completely dead rails, slow cloth, a little slate showing, heavy oversized cue balls, and nice slant in the leveling.

Any player looking for perfect playing conditions on a pool table before they consider playing someone, is NOT a real player, and is the exact players I'd look for when gambling, letting the table conditions get into their head made them a victim before we even started playing, even if they were a better player than I was!!

 

[The_JV]

You've obviously never spent much time traveling around looking for gambling action. If you had, you'd have learned to play on tables with the slate showing through the cloth where you rack the balls, literally racking the 1 ball on the slate, not to mention having to pick the cushion up on an end rail so you could try banking a ball off it instead of ski jumping the object ball right off the table. As a seasoned player, if you wanted to leave with the money, you had to learn now only how to play the table, you had to learn how to play your opponents. If you don't focus as much on how your opponents play, as well as how the table plays, then you'll have failed to learn your opponents strengths and weaknesses, in order to avoid, or use them against your opponents in order to win.

Keep in mind, if all your attention is focused on you and the table, you forget the table don't shoot back, and miss paying attention to the opponents that do!!

Sage level comments Glenn... Who knew you had it in ya

You are right. I'm not a road warrior, and have never attempted to hustle anyone as well. I'm just a guy that enjoys playing the game and typically doesn't shy away from a challenge. While I have never played on cloth so worn it's transparent, I have played on tables in such disrepair that cushions have to be adjusted prior to shooting. In fact I find such conditions in my local room done shortly after the tables have been re-clothed. Hence why I did all my own work.

Frankly, I simply don't play on crap equipment. I have that option and don't hesitate to do so. However when you pay for tournament and you get screwed by conditions, it sucks. Much like the very recent "Canadian Open" 8 ball that just went off. Last year they re-clothed all the tourney tables prior to the event. This year we got to enjoy the same cloth that was installed for that prior event. Table conditions were outright terrible. ...and I only drove an hour. Can't imagine how pissed those from the coasts felt about what they traveled to play on. I will not be registering for that event again until I know the conditions I will be subjecting myself to.

There was a very recent thread about what players should be paying attention to when in a match, so I won't rehash that here. You do make very valid points though, I agree to a point.