How Do You Get from Eight to the Nine Here?

[sjm]

A shot I have seen professionals practicing on several occasions is the one shown in the diagram below, and I have seen many different approaches to this shot over the years.

For the moment, let's consider the matter of all possible ways of making the eight and getting good shape on the nine, deferring the matter of what's the best way for later in the thread.

Clarifying the diagram, and it's vital that you understand this: 1) neither the cue ball nor the eight ball is frozen to the rail, 2) each ball is just off the rail, and you have no angle, meaning that both a center ball follow and a center ball draw would lead to a scratch in one of the bottom corners, 3) you are on fairly tight (but not ridiculouasly tight) equipment, so you can't cheat the pocket with much confidence of making the ball, 4) wei code text here is

START(%A[3\8%B[3B2%CB6\3%DB0\0%Et5B9%F[9B4%Gs8\5%HC8J2%Ir3O7%PC9N8)END

How many different ways of getting this shape do you know? Remember, I'm not asking how you'd shoot it, just about what you see as the theoretically possible ways of getting good on the nine here. By the way, I know the two rail eight in the side is one possible way, but to protect us from the incredibly creative bank-pool supergeeks, let's, for now, agree to ignore all banks of the eight here.

 

[Rickw]

Rail first with either follow high right or draw low left. I think it depends a lot on how you feel at the table and how the pockets are. If the pockets are extremely tight, I might just opt for a bank on the 9.

 

[jjinfla]

You must have been in Tampa, Planet 9-Ball, a couple months ago when the Florida Pro Tour was there. Corey Deuel was showing this shot to the young kids he was playing on the front table.

Rail first draw.

He made it look easy.

Oh, and he had the balls frozen.

Jake

 

[sjm]

The thread is off to a nice start, but some options remain. I know of two different ball-first approaches, and there are some rail-first approaches not yet mentioned.

PS Jjinfla, I wasn't in Tampa, but would have loved to be there to watch Corey working his magic.

 

[azhousepro]

You know as inconsistent as Corey's game is, he does have an amazing stroke. The shot he pulled out a couple years ago at Mosconi Cup and the shot he pulled out at the US Open come to mind immediately.

Mike

 

[Rod]

Depends on what you call position. LOL Testy shot at best. Here is one way, compress the rail with low left. The line is appx but can be done with a medium draw stroke. You'd better of practiced this so you know how far before the o/b you can hit.

START(
%A[3\8%B[3B2%CB6\3%DB0\0%Et5B9%F[9B4%Gs8\5%HC8J2%Ir3O7%PC9N8
%Ur7I8%VO3[2%WC5M6%XE5U2%YN3Z6%ZC7K0%[m5F2%\s2I5%eA8b2
)END

Another is shoot with more cue angle and aim very slight to right of pocket, no english. With more cue angle the c/b bounces up and lands on the edge of the rail then travels straight up table to the 9. The diagram is difficult to draw.

START(
%A[3\8%B[3B2%CB6\3%DB0\0%Et5B9%F[9B4%Gs8\5%HC8J2%Ir3O7%PC9N8
%WC8K3%XD0N2%Yr0I9%ZC6K0%eB4a4%_D0J7%`B6J2%aB7K0
)END

This last one takes a fair amount of practice.

Another way is play a one pocket shot. Cut the 8 left then catch the high side of the pocket point banking the 8 to the bottom left pocket. Shoot with top right, high percentage but you asked. It does work well in 1P but then you can hide behind the rack.

START(
%A[3\8%B[3B2%CB6\3%DB0\0%Et5B9%F[9B4%Gs8\5%HC8J2%Ir3O7%PC9N8
%UD4Z8%VD8C4%WC3F7%XC7H9%YD3D1%ZC3E9%]D0K9%^C9O8%eC0`7%_r0T6
%`K2C6%aD2J0
)END


Rod

 

[sjm]

Testy shot at best.

You said it, Rodd. As for the third option you offered, I did include a "no banks" provision in the original post. Still, I'm glad you either didn't notice it or ignored it, because I just learned a shot. I'm not a frequent one pocket player, so this bank isn't one I'm familiar with. I'm going to try this bank shot next time I chalk it up at the local poolroom. Dying to see whether I can pull it off.

 

[LastTwo]

Even on tight equipment you can still cheat the pocket without having to go rail first, either using bottom left or top right.

 

[sjm]

Even on tight equipment you can still cheat the pocket without having to go rail first, either using bottom left or top right.

Last Two, the wording in my original post was "you can't cheat the pocket with much confidence of making the ball", which means I'm conceding that you can cheat the pocket, just that it's a pretty tall order on tough equipment on a shot that must clearly be hit with a lot of pace. Still, let's agree that cheating the pocket is among your options here.

 

[Rickw]

Actually, if the balls aren't real far apart, you can still do rail first because the rail will bend in a little. There's also another shot, you shoot the ob with top right-hand english and into the rail just a scosch so that the cb will carom to about the 2nd diamond. The ob will go into the bottom rail a little and then hit the side rail and the spin will reverse into the other corner (this is a one pocket shot).

 

[iusedtoberich]

Last Two, the wording in my original post was "you can't cheat the pocket with much confidence of making the ball", which means I'm conceding that you can cheat the pocket, just that it's a pretty tall order on tough equipment on a shot that must clearly be hit with a lot of pace. Still, let's agree that cheating the pocket is among your options here.

I've seen this shot and played it myself on triple shims straight in with high outside. Even when it looks straight in with no room for cheating, it is possible to still make it. Give it a try without discounting it. It might actually be a higher percentage shot than some of the other ones.

 

[Williebetmore]

I like the rail first shot, and I also like the "jump the cue ball onto the cushion" shot - they are both very makeable.

Another shot, just as makeable is the half-masse' shot. Elevate about 45 degrees, use right English (must therefore allow for the throw and aim slightly to the left of the 8 ball). After contact the cue ball heads straight down table. Most players will only be able to get the cue ball to about the side pocket, but at least you are headed in the right direction. If I only needed to get to the side pocket, my percentage is higher with this shot than the first 2 shots mentioned.

P.S. - this half-masse' is an extremely valuable shot for those times when you find yourself too straight in on a shot to the side pocket (not enough angle to go around 3 rails, and just slightly on the wrong side of the object ball). Using this shot you can make the cue ball go the way you want it, even though you are on the wrong side of the object ball.

 

[TATE]

The shot that I use is a combination of several suggestions here, very similar to Williebetmores shot.

This works because it's a short shot. You elevate the cue to about 30 degrees, you aim the 8 straight into the pocket, with high right and stroke through the ball medium hard. The cueball pops up a little to the right, the follow takes it to the rail, then the right spin sends it downtable to the right like this:

START(
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%WC8L0%XC8M9%[F8E4%\C9J5%]i0Z5%^G4D2
)END

WEI

The hard part is to have the confidence to hit at the eight like you are trying to follow it into the corner pocket. If you stroke it well, you won't.


Chris

Ps. You don't have to jack up to pull this off. I do because it gives me more angle.

 

[sjm]

Wow! Great effort by all on this one. Pretty much every way I know of has been covered. Which way do I tend to play this? I'm partial to the pop shot described by RichardCranium and Tate (with a variation on that shot offered by Williebetmore), which, more or less, creates a false angle up table by changing the contact point ever so slightly. I'm also quite fond of rail-first draw, which, as was offered, seems to be Corey Deuel's approach to this position. Still, all the shots identified in this thread have merit.

So which way should you play it? I'd say go with whichever shot you're comfortable with. Having said that, however, when this type of position has to be played earlier in the rack, the position of the obstructing balls may limit your choices, so it's good to be aware of all the shots mentioned in this thread.

 

[LastTwo]

Whoops I should have read your first post more clearly, I thought they were frozen to the rail. The shot I am talking about is going into the rail with the cueball (when they are frozen on the rail) and cheating the pocket.

 

[Pictoras]

Fong Pang Chao WPC2004

I have seen a shot just like this one in Fong Pang Chao match with Alex Pagulayan - 2004 WPC. Chao just ended straight on the 8ball but at the left pocket as show by the picture you posted, with the 9 basicly in the same possition.He then executed a slight masse with a lot of left english but he hit it to firm and the wb scratched into the low left corner.

 

[sjm]

A lot of interesting answers to the poser, all will work but with very low probablities....I would venture to say that 99 percent of billiard players never even heard of parallel english. Try a Google search and see what happens.

I strongly disagree. I'd say the pop shot is about 80% for me, surely higher for some of those in this thread who play at or near pro speed.

As for parallel english, rather than sending us all into a research mode, could you instead define it for us, and tell us why its application has pertinence to the position with which this thread deals? It would really be appreciated.

 

[Williebetmore]

Parallel English

A lot of interesting answers to the poser, all will work but with very low probablities.


I would be interested if anyone knows what parallel english is, I have not met anyone yet who knew it by it's name.

Joe

Joe,
I, like SJM, can make this shot over 80% of the time.

I was about to comment that if the cue ball and 8 ball are just a little way off the rail, the shot can be made quite easily with just extreme right hand English (with the cue stick parallel to the cueball path, not with "backhand English", not with high English). The deflection of the cue ball takes it from the object ball into the rail, the extreme English throws the 8 ball back onto the correct path into the pocket, and the extreme spin provides all the power to spin the cue ball 2 rails towards the center of the table. If this is what you mean by parallel English, then I totally agree that this is the best way to escape the bottom rail if you have a slight angle, or if the balls are parallel, but a little ways off the bottom rail. I haven't experimented with it when the balls are as SJM diagrammed, very close to the rail, I'm not sure it would work as well in this situation. I love this shot, I would not be able to play straight pool without it, as I frequently leave myself too little angle on the bottom rail, and need to pull this shot off to escape.

 

[sjm]

Wouldn't you like to get it 100 % of the time with absolutely NO risk? I see you are in NYC, Ginky MIGHT know what I'm talking about.

Actually, I know Ginky well, and he and I sometimes practice together. Still, I have no intention of asking him what parallel english is, because I really could care less. When you introduce terminlology into a thread that, by your own estimation, 99% of all players would not be familiar with, I suggest you should feel compelled to define it.

As best as I can see it, you have not recommended any approach to the shot presented, simply stating that all choices offered in this thread are very low-percentage, and you are very mistaken in that judgment. If you have an approach to the shot that hasn't been mentioned, I'm sure it would be of interest to all of us.

I hope you won't think me disrespectful, for you sound like an extremely knowledgeable theorist of the game. For some reason, though, you choose not to share your knowledge. That's your right, of course, but then what motivated you to participate in this thread?

 

[sjm]

sjm,
My motivation was that ALL those methods mentioned are LOW percentage shots; try that shot from the middle diamond or futher back, not as described in the original post, and I'd be willing to bet you wouldn't even make the shot 20 % of the time yet alone get the cue ball up table. This is an EXTEMELY difficult shot, not to mention the fact that you are NOT coming into the line on you object ball; there is LITTLE control over this cue ball as it beelines up the table and hits the cushion; with Parallel English you are coming in at an angle OFF at least two rails depending on how firm you hit the cue ball.

So, I guess the tip of the day is; use Parallel English when both balls are extremely close but not kissed to the rail. I've been browsing some of the posts here and there are some REALLY knowledgable players here, sjm and Willie prove this.

Thanks for clarifying things, Deadaim. Sorry that I misunderstood you. My problem was that I couldn't tell that you had attempted to generalize your consideration of the subject to all shots of this sort. Consequently, I just couldn't come to grips your claim that the approaches presented for the shot presented were low percentage.

As you note, when you begin to place the object fall further from the intended pocket, the percentages on this shot change, and a different choice may befit the situation.

Anyway, thanks for your post and for contributing to the thread, and have a nice evening.