How Do You Get from Eight to the Nine Here?

[Williebetmore]

But to keep winning you have to have an edge over you opponent, and my edge is knowing something that my opponent does not. Also, I NEVER expected to get an answer to this question; even if someone knew it I felt they would keep it a secret.

Joe

Joe,
Thanks for the compliment, but I'm nowhere near as good a player as many on this forum (including SJM who I am flattering in hopes of getting some free pool advice). I will say one thing, and I hope others on the forum feel the same way, my only purpose in lurking on and contributing to this forum is in hopes of learning more about pool - including sharing anything I might know with other students of the game (otherwise known as fanatics).

It was the attitude of keeping secrets that kept me banging balls for 15 years instead of improving - I didn't know the fine points, no one would write about the fine points, and no one would tell me about them. Every time I pick up a cue I should say a silent word of thanks to people like Bob Byrne (who I was able to thank personally this year at the Peoria WPBA tournament) and Ray Martin for having the gumption to start putting the fine points into widely available books. In the previous hundred years, exactly no one ever wrote these things down (though I have an early 1900's tome by Maurice Daly that shows some billiards concepts in fair depth).

I also am eternally grateful to my instructor (a top professional) for showing me a ton of things that you can't get from those books. To my knowledge he has never kept any secrets from me. To me, the biggest secret is that anyone can get good if they spend the time, practice intelligently, and seek proper instruction.

I am not sure why secret-keepers would be interested in this forum, its rather public. Perhaps lovers of the game should leave the secret-keeping to the magicians. Lovers of gambling of course will continue to seek an edge.

 

[mjantti]

What if we change the game into 8-ball and you'd had the same diagram with your last ball in the 8-ball spot and the 8-ball would be at the 9-ball spot. Would you try to pocket your last ball and play position for the 8-ball or would you just jaw your last ball and leave the long bank on the 8-ball for your opponent ?

 

[Keith McCready]

'02 Spring Open in Norfolk-Parks vs. McCready

I am still in the AzBilliards' "moderation queue" and am unable to post under my newly acquired membership of "JAM," but I wanted to add a comment to this thread.

A few years ago at the Spring Open in Norfolk, Virginia, Keith McCready was hitting 'em really good and was plowing his way through the A side of the chart. The double-elimination tournament was held at Q-Masters. When he played Michael Coltrain, he played the best I have ever seen him play, beating him 9 to 2, sending Michael to the B side of the charts. His match was over in literally minutes. Before one ball could finish dropping, you could hear the next ball going in. It was one big sound explosion of balls dropping in succession as he maneuvered his way around the table. I've never seen anything like it, and everybody on the rail, including me, enjoyed the show while Keith was having a "flashback," as he calls it.

Along comes the semi-finals and he meets Ron Parks. The match seesawed back and forth, and before long, it was hill-hill. Keith broke the balls and ran the table until he got to the 8-ball, which he missed. Oddly enough, the shot on this thread was EXACTLY the same leave Keith left Ron Parks to win the match.

I looked at this straight-in 8-ball shot, with the 9 on the other end of the table, and thought Ron was a shoe-in to win the match. It looked so simple to me, a straight-in shot and then the 9 for the win. Billy Stephens, a veteran pro player from Virginia and an old friend of mine, was standing next to me, and I looked at him and said, "It's over, Billy. Keith dogged it." Billy whispered in my ear and said, "This isn't an easy shot, Jennie. Ron doesn't have to get out from here." I looked at the table again with only 2 remaining balls on the table and wondered how in the world could Ron miss and thought Billy was just being kind.

Ron Parks shot the 8-ball in, and the english he applied must have not taken because he made the 8-ball all right, but then immediately scratched right behind it, giving Keith ball in hand for the win. Billy looked at me and winked, as he knew this shot was more difficult than one may think.

Keith sailed his way to the finals at the Spring Open and got the hot seat, and lo and behold, who should he meet in the finals? Michael Coltrain. The finals was an extended race to 13, and Michael played brilliantly and won the tournament in good form.

I will NEVER forget that straight-in 8-ball that Ron missed, allowing Keith to advance. This thread reminded me of it, and I thought I'd share this story because it was the exact same shot.

Here's a picture of Ron Parks and Keith.

JAM

 

[LastTwo]

Willie,

GOLD STAR!

So far you are the ONLY person that has answered that correctly, most people look at me rather strangely when I mention parallel and english in the same sentence; or, they know but will not tell because they think I don't know and am looking to find out what this is.

sjm,

My motivation was that ALL those methods mentioned are LOW percentage shots; try that shot from the middle diamond or futher back, not as described in the original post, and I'd be willing to bet you wouldn't even make the shot 20 % of the time yet alone get the cue ball up table. This is an EXTEMELY difficult shot, not to mention the fact that you are NOT coming into the line on you object ball; there is LITTLE control over this cue ball as it beelines up the table and hits the cushion; with Parallel English you are coming in at an angle OFF at least two rails depending on how firm you hit the cue ball.

Since Willie knows what I'm talking about then Willie knows this is the easiest method to get the cue ball to come up table EVEN if the ojbect ball is further from the pocket. The idea behind winning is to shoot high percentage shots that you KNOW you will make. Anything off the rail (draw or follow) is a low percentage shot; anything where the cue jumps off the table and on the rail is a low percentage shot. With parallel english ALL I have to do is keep the cue on the same side of the cue ball as the english. Try it and I think you'll agree that this is a much higher percentage shot with little error possiblities.

I'd don't admonish Willie for putting forth this info, but if Willie keeps telling everything he knows, Willie won't be winning long; I only mention this because since Willie knows what parallel english is I will feel confident that Willie is NOW a winner much of the time. But to keep winning you have to have an edge over you opponent, and my edge is knowing something that my opponent does not. Also, I NEVER expected to get an answer to this question; even if someone knew it I felt they would keep it a secret.

So, I guess the tip of the day is; use Parallel English when both balls are extremely close but not kissed to the rail.

I've been browsing some of the posts here and there are some REALLY knowledgable players here, sjm and Willie prove this.

Nice dicussion, I'll check back tomorrow to see if anymore was added to the post; since the "cat is out of the bag" thanks to Willie we might as well beat the subject to death.

Joe

I really don't understand how this is some "pool secret that only winners use" when alot of people I know use that.

Aside from this parallel english stuff, it requires a good stroke to execute the shot correctly, plain and simple. If you have a good stroke, you can do it. If you have a crappy stroke, I don't care if you know parallel english, backhand english, whatever, you have a very slim chance to execute the shot.

 

[Rickw]

Joe,
I am not sure why secret-keepers would be interested in this forum, its rather public. Perhaps lovers of the game should leave the secret-keeping to the magicians. Lovers of gambling of course will continue to seek an edge.

In my opinion, everyone has a certain amount of natural skills. Some players could practice until the cows come home and never get to an A player status. Other players can play for a relatively short amount of time and become quite proficient at this game.

I used to teach martial arts and I taught everything I knew. I felt that if one of my students became better than me, they were meant to and that there was really nothing I could do to prevent that from happening. Another instructor that I knew felt just the opposite. He purposely taught his students moves that ensured they would be slower than him giving him an edge. I never respected him as a person for doing that.

Back to pool. I'm not trying to brag here but when I'm in stroke, people notice it including the better players. Think about it, when you see someone stroking the balls sweet, you notice it. That can't be taught imo, you have to have a certain amount of natural talent to stroke the cue with enough finesse to make people stop and look. A friend of mine that I play with, a retired boxer, him and I talk about this frequently and we both agree that natural talent has a huge part to play in whether you're going to be a good player or not.

 

[Williebetmore]

In my opinion, everyone has a certain amount of natural skills. Some players could practice until the cows come home and never get to an A player status. Other players can play for a relatively short amount of time and become quite proficient at this game.

we both agree that natural talent has a huge part to play in whether you're going to be a good player or not.

Rick,
It is certain that we will not resolve the "nature vs. nurture" debate. I am in total agreement with you; there are some people who are gifted, quick learners, and there are others who will never be able to learn how to tie their own shoes. The only thing we might disagree upon is the quantity of the middle ground players (ie. those who can be taught to play at a high level). I actually believe the number to be quite large, and I think the vast majority of casual players could be taught to be A players within 1 to 2 years if they are willing to invest an hour or 2 a day, and if they are willing to seek instruction from someone like Jerry Briesath or Mark Wilson. Now, could anyone become a professional player - I don't know (maybe professional level play does require some innate gifts).

I played sports of all sorts, and was always an extremely quick learner, with excellent hand-eye coordination. But in the area of pool, I was just a banger, and was never able to develop any sort of decent game despite 15 years of playing casually. As I've posted before, once I got appropriate instruction a whole new world was revealed.

 

[TATE]

Willie,

GOLD STAR!


Also, I NEVER expected to get an answer to this question; even if someone knew it I felt they would keep it a secret.

So, I guess the tip of the day is; use Parallel English when both balls are extremely close but not kissed to the rail.

I've been browsing some of the posts here and there are some REALLY knowledgable players here, sjm and Willie prove this.


Joe

Joe,

In all honesty, there is no secret to what you know. There are probably a dozen ways of getting the cueball all the way downtable when the balls are straight in and a little off the rail . We all just suggested what we would use.


Here, I will list the ones I know off the top of my head:

1) Right english stun.

2) Left english throw with stun.

3) Left english throw with draw.

4) High right follow.

5) Rail first with follow.

6) Rail first with high right.

7) Rail first with stun.

8) Rail first with draw.

9) Cheat pocket off short rail with stun (on 4.5" pockets or greater).

10) Masse with draw

11) Masse with follow

12) Airborne the cue ball center ball after hard contact.

13) Right english "creeper". (Right stun with a hair of follow, spin takes the cueball near the side pocket and down).

On and on and on. A player should use what they are comfortable with. There is no secret and there is no right way. How a player puts english on the ball doesn't matter as long as they aim properly and adjust to it.

The "secrets" are some bullshit invented by a few uncertified, unscrupulous instructors to take your hard earned money. Don't believe it.

Chris

 

[DeadAim]

Tate,

I guess secret was a bad choice of words, I believe I wanted to use the Parallel English system as a better percentage shot that is NOT illustrated in any book or video that "I" know of.

Jimmy stresses "percentages" in his teachings, shoot the wrong percentage shot and you're a loser; I guess Jimmy's record speaks for itself and he knows what he's talking about.

It's only a secret if you don't know it

There are a lot of things you can't learn from practice and years of playing, they HAVE to be shown to you; with Jimmy's help and his generosity with sharing what he knows I have successfully closed the gap between me and many top players; including pros.

This forum is OUTSTANDING with many knowledgable people present, but I WILL always side with Jimmy in matters concerning billiards because he SIMPLY knows more than others do.

Joe

 

[chefjeff]

I like the rail first shot, and I also like the "jump the cue ball onto the cushion" shot - they are both very makeable.

<snip>.

I used to over-power this jump shot and the cueball would sometimes hit the rail and, instead of bouncing nicely down table, roll off the rail onto the floor.

I then discovered that if you place the chalk near the object ball, the bouncing cueball would be less likely to make it to the floor, as it would be stopped by the cube and roll back onto the playing surface.

I've noticed that the BCA rulebook has recently changed and it is now illegal to use the chalk this way (evidently someone else had a devious mind, like mine). I suppose I'll just have to go work on my stroke some more---damn!...life is so unfair.

Jeff Livingston

 

[Williebetmore]

I used to over-power this jump shot and the cueball would sometimes hit the rail and, instead of bouncing nicely down table, roll off the rail onto the floor.

Jeff Livingston

Jeff,
It's amazing how little power this shot requires, especially if you use high English in addition to elevating the cue (ie. cue tip above the equator of the cue ball when viewed along the line of the cue after elevation of the butt).


Dead Aim,
I'm with you in thinking Jim Rempe is one of the all-time greats - he is one of my favorite players ever. I think the top pro's are in a never-ending quest to reduce risk, and to maximize their percentages in every way possible. Even if the proper play improves your percentage of success only 1%, then it is worth doing; over your pool lifetime you are bound to reap the rewards.

 

[LastTwo]

This shot that SJM showed in the first post, I just practiced it today on pockets that will fit 1 and 3/4 balls (less than two pool balls) in the jaws (dunno the size of the pockets) and I made it every time. I can get straight in on the 9, just by using high right english and slightly cheating the pocket, and I did it using a slightly softer than medium stroke. You don't have to hit it hard, not even close. You just use top right with more right english than top. I was also doing it on very slow cloth, Champion cloth, the kind that is so thick it feels almost like carpet when you put your hand on it lol. I suppose on faster cloth the shot is 10 times easier. I don't see what the big deal about this shot is.

I can't believe that someone would actually consider playing safe here. You would have to REALLY be taking the heat in a match to duck on this one lol.

 

[CaptainJR]

Parallel English

A lot of interesting answers to the poser, all will work but with very low probablities.

I would venture to say that 99 percent of billiard players never even heard of parallel english. Try a Google search and see what happens.

That's one of the secrets of pool, you might already be using it and not even know it.

This is a routine shot for me now thanks to my teacher, I can get up the table every time with NO risk at all.

I would be interested if anyone knows what parallel english is, I have not met anyone yet who knew it by it's name.

Joe

I agree, fairly easy shot. You have my address and phone number. $500.00 says I make this shot on a normal non-shimmed table with at least good position on the 9 eight out of 10 tries (was going to say 9 out of 10 but could be a bad day).

I use the shot I'm going to be talking about (back hand english throw) any time I have a straight in shot and need to send the cue ball forward and off line or just move it laterally. (I didn't say backward because the draw version of this shot is much more difficult and risky) If the cue ball is farther away from the object ball, this becomes much more difficult.

DeadAim's post, I thought he talked about it but either he is dead wrong or he and I have our terms mixed up. I'm thinking we most likely have are terms confused. The only way to determine this is for me to define what I think is 'parallel engish' compared to 'back hand english'.

This explanation is what I understand the definitions are. If your definitions are different, that is fine, but for the purpose of this reply and to understand what I'm saying. You need to use my definition and apply your definition later.

Parallel english: The most commonly used english. This is done by moving the cue stick parallel to where it would be if you were shooting the shot straight in. This is done by moving the position of both hands to the right or left. (in this particular shot it would be to the right.) This shot sort of pushes the cue ball online, minimizing deflection. (parallel cue position, thus the name 'parallel engligh')

Back hand english: Not so commonly used. This is done by rotating the line of the cue stick around the forward hand by moving the back hand. The forward hand does not move. (extreme version which might be used for this shot, the forward hand may even move to the left a little, [opposite direction of the english]) The cue stick is not parallel to the shot. It is more of a glancing blow on the cue counting on considerable deflection. (The back hand moves and the forward hand is stationary, thus the name 'back hand english')

In the picture below the 10 ball and 11 ball represent the forward hand position not balls and the arrows represent the stick not the ball flight. These positions are little exagerated so you can see better what I'm talking about.
The brown line is the cue stick if you were shooting the 8 ball straight in (scratch shot)
The 10 ball and the green line show parallel engligh.
The 11 ball and the blue line show back hand english

I hope I explained this well enough for you all to understand. This is a great tool. As I said above, I use it all the time on straight in shots. It takes a little practice, so give it a little time. Sometimes when I do this shot I get the impression I move the back hand laterally a little at impact. Like I'm taking the cue tip across the cue ball instead of straight into it. Not sure about that, might just be a feeling. Also the shot must be straight in. If it is straght in to the incorrect side of the pocket is won't work. In this example it happens to be straight in to the correct side of the pocket.

I've mentioned before that my teach reads this forum. I had to say 'non-shimmed table' in the first paragraph to avoid walking into my lesson and seeing $500.00 laying on the table. His is triple shimmed. If Fred wants the bet, we'll have to go to the pool room.

Resulting position using back hand english.
START(
%A[3\8%B[3B2%CB6\3%DB0\0%Et5B9%F[9B4%Gs8\5%HC0B8%Ir3O7%Pg0F3
%Wd9F4%XC9I7
)END

 

[LastTwo]

Joe, werent you the one the came here and said that 'parellel english' is a secret, and only winners use it, or something like that? Well I am going to show you this shot that is very high percentage for anyone WHO CAN PLAY AT LEAST HALFWAY DECENT. Hit this shot with medium stroke speed just like in the diagram:

START(
%A[3\8%B[3B2%CB6\3%DB0\0%Et5B9%F[9B4%Gs8\5%HC8J2%Ir3O7%PC9N8
%Uo7V5%Vk8Z9%WF1D5%XD4J3%YD0K7%ZD0M8%[k0Z4%\F0C7%eC5`7
)END


This shot is still easy if the cueball is further back, so you still won't have to consider playing safe (lol). Just try the shot, practice it a few times, and get rid of all that theoretical mumbo jumbo.

 

[five]

I am trying to see I can get a screenshot of the latest suggestion to work:

 

[Joe T]

Tate,

I guess secret was a bad choice of words, I believe I wanted to use the Parallel English system as a better percentage shot that is NOT illustrated in any book or video that "I" know of.

Jimmy stresses "percentages" in his teachings, shoot the wrong percentage shot and you're a loser; I guess Jimmy's record speaks for itself and he knows what he's talking about.

It's only a secret if you don't know it

There are a lot of things you can't learn from practice and years of playing, they HAVE to be shown to you; with Jimmy's help and his generosity with sharing what he knows I have successfully closed the gap between me and many top players; including pros.

This forum is OUTSTANDING with many knowledgable people present, but I WILL always side with Jimmy in matters concerning billiards because he SIMPLY knows more than others do.

Joe

Jimmy taught me this shot also. Thanks Jim and thanks for the post because of my sh*** memory I hardly ever remember to play it like that. But it's a little harder with a low deflection cue.

Joe T

 

[CaptainJR]

I agree, fairly easy shot. You have my address and phone number. $500.00 says I make this shot on a normal non-shimmed table with at least good position on the 9 eight out of 10 tries (was going to say 9 out of 10 but could be a bad day).

I use the shot I'm going to be talking about (back hand english throw) any time I have a straight in shot and need to send the cue ball forward and off line or just move it laterally. (I didn't say backward because the draw version of this shot is much more difficult and risky) If the cue ball is farther away from the object ball, this becomes much more difficult.

DeadAim's post, I thought he talked about it but either he is dead wrong or he and I have our terms mixed up. I'm thinking we most likely have are terms confused. The only way to determine this is for me to define what I think is 'parallel engish' compared to 'back hand english'.

This explanation is what I understand the definitions are. If your definitions are different, that is fine, but for the purpose of this reply and to understand what I'm saying. You need to use my definition and apply your definition later.

Parallel english: The most commonly used english. This is done by moving the cue stick parallel to where it would be if you were shooting the shot straight in. This is done by moving the position of both hands to the right or left. (in this particular shot it would be to the right.) This shot sort of pushes the cue ball online, minimizing deflection. (parallel cue position, thus the name 'parallel engligh')

Back hand english: Not so commonly used. This is done by rotating the line of the cue stick around the forward hand by moving the back hand. The forward hand does not move. (extreme version which might be used for this shot, the forward hand may even move to the left a little, [opposite direction of the english]) The cue stick is not parallel to the shot. It is more of a glancing blow on the cue counting on considerable deflection. (The back hand moves and the forward hand is stationary, thus the name 'back hand english')

In the picture below the 10 ball and 11 ball represent the forward hand position not balls and the arrows represent the stick not the ball flight. These positions are little exagerated so you can see better what I'm talking about.
The brown line is the cue stick if you were shooting the 8 ball straight in (scratch shot)
The 10 ball and the green line show parallel engligh.
The 11 ball and the blue line show back hand english

I hope I explained this well enough for you all to understand. This is a great tool. As I said above, I use it all the time on straight in shots. It takes a little practice, so give it a little time. Sometimes when I do this shot I get the impression I move the back hand laterally a little at impact. Like I'm taking the cue tip across the cue ball instead of straight into it. Not sure about that, might just be a feeling. Also the shot must be straight in. If it is straght in to the incorrect side of the pocket is won't work. In this example it happens to be straight in to the correct side of the pocket.

I've mentioned before that my teach reads this forum. I had to say 'non-shimmed table' in the first paragraph to avoid walking into my lesson and seeing $500.00 laying on the table. His is triple shimmed. If Fred wants the bet, we'll have to go to the pool room.

Resulting position using back hand english.
START(
%A[3\8%B[3B2%CB6\3%DB0\0%Et5B9%F[9B4%Gs8\5%HC0B8%Ir3O7%Pg0F3
%Wd9F4%XC9I7
)END

Back up and Regroup,
In another thread recently I said "If I'm wrong, I'll say I'm wrong". Well, I didn't expect to have to back that up so quickly.

Don't get me wrong though. I can still make this shot easily and get position on the 9, but the way it happens and the difference between parallel and back hand english is a little different. I did a little experimenting last night and I can be a little more specific now. As an excuse, I wrote that yesterday without being at a pool table.

It all depends on the distance of the two balls from the rail. The original post just says the cue ball and 8 ball were not frozen on the rail. Since he said they were straight in I assumed close to the rail and equal distance from the rail. Here is the difference I found from what I wrote above.

From 1/16 to 3/8 of an inch off the rail I saw negligible difference between using parallel and back hand english. The position I get, the cue ball hits the rail a little to the right of the pocketed ball (five's screen shot shows this), then the spin throws the cue down toward the 9. I had to be careful about scratching in the opposite corner. As far as the bet I made above, 'Just like trick shot magic' if I scratch it still counts for me cause I did get the cue ball down toward the 9. LOL

If the object ball is more that 3/8 inch off the rail, for the shot still to be straight in, the cue ball need to be more off the rail than the 8. This is where I saw a difference between parallel and back hand english. With the back hand english, it was easier for me to send the cue ball straight down table. It wasn't so much easier that I can say it would be easier for everyone that way. So if you said it is easier for you using parallel, I couldn't argue with that.

I originally called this the 'back hand english throw' and the issue because of the 'throw' seems to be how much pocket you have to play with. So when the two balls were close to the rail, I couldn't get much difference between the two types of shot. When I'm shooting a straight in shot from out in the middle of the table, I can get a completely different result by using back hand english rather than parallel.

Sorry for being so bold yesterday and putting this up without doing the experimenting first. However, I did learn some more specifics about these shots and that's at least part of what we're all about here.

 

[LastTwo]

Good post JR.

 

[Rickw]

I worked on this shot but with the CB and 8 both frozen to the end rail. I found that parallel english doesn't work well with the two balls frozen to the rail. I used inside draw going into the rail first as I suggested earlier and had no problem making the shot and getting to the side rail above the side pocket giving me an easy shot on the 9. I did this on a Diamond 4 1/2 X 9 table. The pockets are pretty tight but not shimmed. The parallel english will work if the balls are slightly off the rail, especially the CB but if the CB is touching the rail, parallel won't work, not on that table. BTW, I wasn't the only one trying either.