Gerry said:
Hence forth you shall now be known as.....Triple Smart Gerry. Its done. Now go bring peace and security to the AZ forum.
How Good Was Minnesota Fats?
- Thread starter Jude Rosenstock
- Start date
Hence forth you shall now be known as.....Triple Smart Gerry. Its done. Now go bring peace and security to the AZ forum.
Gerry said:
Ok, here's your new signature:
Name: "Triple Smart" Jerry
Cue: --
Age: --
Location: --
Hours of pool: --
Profession: --
jay helfert said:
Jay,
It's possible that your story of Fats vs. Mosconi is apocryphal.
In both Howard Cosell's and Willie Mosconi's biography they recall the interview with Fats that started the "feud" (Mosconi was present). Here is an excerpt of the interview from Mosoni's biography:
"You ever beat Greenleaf?" someone asked Fats.
"I played Greenleaf a hundred nights in a row and I beat him a hundred nights in a row," Fats said.
Fats went on, explaining that he never lost a cash match in his life, when someone thought to ask, "did you ever beat Mosconi."
Fats never answered directly. Hesitated a few seconds and then he said, "I played 'em all, and I beat 'em all."
With that Willie bolted from his chair...red and you could see the veins bulging in his neck. "You beat ME?" he said. "You never beat ME! I played you once in Philadelphia and I had to give you train fare to get out of town."
Fats was a habitual liar, and Mosconi had many witnesses to his defeat of Fats. And while Fats was adept at getting people to "back up" his stories (see Freddy the Beard's book on this subject), it seems very likely that he never beat Mosconi (but I guess we'll never know for sure). It would be AWFULLY NICE to hear Charlie Ursitti's view of the subject (I bet he knows for sure).
Just my $.02.
P.S. - I'm not a Fats basher, just respectful of the opinion of Walter Tevis and Willie Mosconi. I have ALL of the Legends tapes, and enjoy Fats' performances immensely.
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Williebetmore said:
I do recall the incident you are talking about, and I believe that Willie did beat Fats in Philadelphia. He probably spotted him in 14.1. The "bank every other ball" story was one Earl Shriver told in Johnson City, with Fats in attendance. It may have just been a swipe at Mosconi, because the hustlers didn't care for him, and Fats was one of their own.
I wonder if anyone remembers the "Willie The Wop" story that Fats used to conclude his exhibitions with. It was a long, very derogatory story about a pool player (Willie?) who dogged his out ball in a big match. He miscued on a straight in shot in the side. I wonder who the Willie was he was referring to. Duh?
Something happened though around 1975 or so, because Fats quit telling that story. Maybe it had to do with the upcoming TV matches with Mosconi. These shows got super high ratings on TV, much higher than any pool show since.
Jude Rosenstock said:
Jude,
To my knowledge the only tournament Fats ever played in was the first One Pocket Event in Johnson City in 1961. There were something like 15 or 16 players and Fats finished second to Johnny Vevis.
Jay I'm glad you told everyone about how Fats really played. I of course never saw him play, I'm only 26. A friend of mine that I know from a poolhall I used to go to, knew Fats very well. This friend of mine is in his 80's. You might know him Jay, he used to own a poolhall called "Mothers" or something like that, quite a few decades ago. Me and him struck up a real good friendship, and he told me stories about pool from his era. He saw Fats play in his prime, and even past his prime. When I asked him how good did Minnesota Fatts really play, he told me that he was a top-notch player. He also said that all those stories about him being a "B" player were generated by people who got hustled by him, or just disliked him in general. I don't think my friend would lie to me, since there would be no point. It's sad that people like Robert Byrne and alot of others said that he was all talk, and couldn't really play. Maybe he got hustled by him, who knows.
cuetechasaurus said:
If you were out at a pool hall when Fats was there and you saw him for the first time it was difficult for one to really figure out what was going on when he was around other than allot of laughs and being in the presence of someone 'special' but you wern't too sure why. If you think of the unique people you meet as you live your life who are they? When I think of the Fat man I compare him to Red Skelton, Rodney Dangerfield, Johnathan Winters, Robin Williams and the like, you realize these people can't be anything but what they are, a product of their enviornment. Fats was "always" looking for the next score and with his gift of gab he was always chumming the waters, picking up tidbits of your actions, responses and your "weaknesses" and he would take anyone's dough at the table. Here was a man who didn't drink or smoke, was overweight most his life, but always had money, a new car, a home and an extremely caring nature. If he recongnized you at a tournament and he was heading out it was common for the man to ask you if you needed a ride to the hotel or wherever. I think peoples negative talk about him being a hustler were misplaced. He was who he was because of the depression and that era. He possibly has the most recognizable name world wide comparable to Sinatra or Bogart but he did it on his own, quite amazing for someone whos just a pool player, but his legacy is proof that playing pool may not of been the most amazing talent of this person.
The only other one I know of was in Columbus, Georgia -- where Fats came in second in the One Pocket.jay helfert said:
Like others have said, his best pool games were Banks and One Pocket, and his best years were before he was 'discovered' by the media in the 60's, and way before he made his many appearances on TV challenge matches. He played just under the very best players (an 'overcoat' under -- to use one of his own words) -- but that was strong enough for him to parlay with his top notch match-making and action-generating skills into a very successful hustling career.
Seems like I also have heard that he was also a very good three cushion player -- again probably just under the very best -- when he first came up in the 20's and early 30's, but probably switched more to pool to further his career as a hustler.
PoolSleuth
Banned
Very intresting Read. Thread gets a Thumbs Up...
jay helfert said:
JH,
Yes, the tenor of their relationship definitely changed as time went on; they both profited from the rivalry, and Willie even admitted he began to like Fats (who, after all, could be extremely entertaining) eventually (though HATED him to start).
Williebetmore said:
I also have the tapes, and I love to play them for friends when they come over, so they can see all the Legends they hear stories about.
CaptainHook said:I also have the tapes, and I love to play them for friends when they come over, so they can see all the Legends they hear stories about.
Captain,
Unfortunately many of the tapes contain matches played on CRAPPY equipment and with amateurish production work (some kind of crazy, slippery cloth; table that rolled off about a foot; gorgeous babe racking the balls but didn't know how; terrible commentators including a horrifically bad, young Chris Berman). Still great to see the legends though.
repost of an older post
Meeting Fats
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was visiting my Son in Nashville, about 14 years ago. It was my last night in town, a Sunday. My Son was attending College at the time, and had a test Mon. morning, and needed to study some. SO, we didn't have anything to do. I asked the Wife what she would like to do.... She said I want you to go down and meet Fats. (Hell of a Woman she is!!!)
We heard he was living at the Hermitage Hotel, in downtown Nashville. They let him live, (food INCLUDED!) For free, for P.R. reasons. We didn't have anything else to do, I'll try it!! We went down there, parked and went in. First thing I see, is a Brunswick sitiin' right there in the lobby! (Guess who's?) No Fats in sight, though..... We sit down and order a couple drinks, and casually ask the Waitress...."Is Fats around?" She replied, "Oh Hell, you never know...he's in and out all the time."
We sit there, drink our drinks....then another....and order 1 more... Door opens up, and Fats walks in!! He's heading for the back, Kitchen I assume. I think to myself....this is it, now or never. I took and angle, and cut him off just before he went thru the door. Called him....he stopped. I asked "may I buy you a drink?" he said "Son, I don't drink...never have. He then asked "Where are you sitiing" I pointed to the table with the Wife sitting at it. He said "I'll be over in a few minutes." I thinking SURE....he will.
Well, 5 minutes goes past....10 minutes.....THEN, I look up, and here he comes..SURE ENOUGH, with a plate of food! he pulls out a chair, and sits DOWN. Here I AM, with the FAT MAN!! Pinch me..........
It didn't take long for him to get started!! He was dressed in a 3 piece suit, looking SHARP! Says he one hell of a dancer! He's been out dancin' all evening, and came back to eat. Then go back, to dancing.
I start asking questions, KNOWING I'm going to hear a LOT of B.S.!! I asked, WHO was really the best?? (poked the Wife, knowing I'd get him going!) AND before I knew it, he unbuttoned his jacket and reached for the inside pocket of the jacket. Inside there he carried a 'folder'. It literally had his life story in it. He opened it up, and pulled out a old newpaper clipping. Fats said "Here is when I beat Mosconi in Chicago in 33'" and all sorts of stuff. He pulls out this old b/w picture of a little boy in knickers and says " this is me, when I was 3 yrs old" Just gettin' ready to go out on my OWN!! I thought i was gonna DIE!! AT 3 yrs old!! Next picture he was older...he says... "this is when I was 10, when I was 10...it took 3 years to go round' the world. I got BACK, when I was 13. MAN. this guy was a 'natural'. He could sure talk!!!
My Wife was in the Jewelery bus. at the time, and noticed Fat's rings. One of them, had a green stone in it. She thought she 'knew' what it was, and asked Fat's. YEP, a big ol' Green Diamond!! For those of you that don't know, it is one of, if not the rarest color Diamond. VERY expensive! Fats told us it was gift from the Sultan Of Brunei. For teaching him how to play pool!! He flew Fats over, and he had the 'run of the Palace' while he was here. Along with the 'harem'. WHATEVER he wanted....bar NOTHING.
Fats married a Local waitress, not long after I met him. I think she was 38 or 39. Fat's had a 'thing' about his age, from what I understand. I asked him how old he was, he wouldn't say. I also asked him to 'hit a few' he declined, saying he hardly ever played anymore. (Later found out that was false!)
I also asked him for an autograph. He told me he NEVER signed autographs, and whipped out a card holder. He took one out, and handed it to me. It read "I've been HUSTLED by Minnesota Fats" I still have it. Afer he left, I asked the waitress, if he ever plays? She said "Last week, a guy came in from California and wanted to play him. He told him 'no'. Then she said the guy pulled off his Rolex, and put it on the table. And told Fats "Play me..if you win, You keep the watch. If I win, I keep it. Fat's won the flip, ran OUT, picked the watch up and left. He just needed an 'incentive' to play, thats all!!
2 years after meeting him, I read he died. The paper said he was 'thought' to be 82.
I'll tell you, Fats was larger than LIFE. He was an amazing man, who took the game to new heights. As a kid, used to love Wide World Of Sports, especially when Fat's and Willie were going at it! Remember those days? Just listening to the Fat man, was a treat. I think I could honestly say, I'd rather met him than any celebrity alive, or dead. It was real treat, something I'll never forget....EVER.
Fat's epitaph reads.....
"Rack em' up St. Peter, I beat EVERYBODY on EARTH!"
Meeting Fats
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was visiting my Son in Nashville, about 14 years ago. It was my last night in town, a Sunday. My Son was attending College at the time, and had a test Mon. morning, and needed to study some. SO, we didn't have anything to do. I asked the Wife what she would like to do.... She said I want you to go down and meet Fats. (Hell of a Woman she is!!!)
We heard he was living at the Hermitage Hotel, in downtown Nashville. They let him live, (food INCLUDED!) For free, for P.R. reasons. We didn't have anything else to do, I'll try it!! We went down there, parked and went in. First thing I see, is a Brunswick sitiin' right there in the lobby! (Guess who's?) No Fats in sight, though..... We sit down and order a couple drinks, and casually ask the Waitress...."Is Fats around?" She replied, "Oh Hell, you never know...he's in and out all the time."
We sit there, drink our drinks....then another....and order 1 more... Door opens up, and Fats walks in!! He's heading for the back, Kitchen I assume. I think to myself....this is it, now or never. I took and angle, and cut him off just before he went thru the door. Called him....he stopped. I asked "may I buy you a drink?" he said "Son, I don't drink...never have. He then asked "Where are you sitiing" I pointed to the table with the Wife sitting at it. He said "I'll be over in a few minutes." I thinking SURE....he will.
Well, 5 minutes goes past....10 minutes.....THEN, I look up, and here he comes..SURE ENOUGH, with a plate of food! he pulls out a chair, and sits DOWN. Here I AM, with the FAT MAN!! Pinch me..........
It didn't take long for him to get started!! He was dressed in a 3 piece suit, looking SHARP! Says he one hell of a dancer! He's been out dancin' all evening, and came back to eat. Then go back, to dancing.
I start asking questions, KNOWING I'm going to hear a LOT of B.S.!! I asked, WHO was really the best?? (poked the Wife, knowing I'd get him going!) AND before I knew it, he unbuttoned his jacket and reached for the inside pocket of the jacket. Inside there he carried a 'folder'. It literally had his life story in it. He opened it up, and pulled out a old newpaper clipping. Fats said "Here is when I beat Mosconi in Chicago in 33'" and all sorts of stuff. He pulls out this old b/w picture of a little boy in knickers and says " this is me, when I was 3 yrs old" Just gettin' ready to go out on my OWN!! I thought i was gonna DIE!! AT 3 yrs old!! Next picture he was older...he says... "this is when I was 10, when I was 10...it took 3 years to go round' the world. I got BACK, when I was 13. MAN. this guy was a 'natural'. He could sure talk!!!
My Wife was in the Jewelery bus. at the time, and noticed Fat's rings. One of them, had a green stone in it. She thought she 'knew' what it was, and asked Fat's. YEP, a big ol' Green Diamond!! For those of you that don't know, it is one of, if not the rarest color Diamond. VERY expensive! Fats told us it was gift from the Sultan Of Brunei. For teaching him how to play pool!! He flew Fats over, and he had the 'run of the Palace' while he was here. Along with the 'harem'. WHATEVER he wanted....bar NOTHING.
Fats married a Local waitress, not long after I met him. I think she was 38 or 39. Fat's had a 'thing' about his age, from what I understand. I asked him how old he was, he wouldn't say. I also asked him to 'hit a few' he declined, saying he hardly ever played anymore. (Later found out that was false!)
I also asked him for an autograph. He told me he NEVER signed autographs, and whipped out a card holder. He took one out, and handed it to me. It read "I've been HUSTLED by Minnesota Fats" I still have it. Afer he left, I asked the waitress, if he ever plays? She said "Last week, a guy came in from California and wanted to play him. He told him 'no'. Then she said the guy pulled off his Rolex, and put it on the table. And told Fats "Play me..if you win, You keep the watch. If I win, I keep it. Fat's won the flip, ran OUT, picked the watch up and left. He just needed an 'incentive' to play, thats all!!
2 years after meeting him, I read he died. The paper said he was 'thought' to be 82.
I'll tell you, Fats was larger than LIFE. He was an amazing man, who took the game to new heights. As a kid, used to love Wide World Of Sports, especially when Fat's and Willie were going at it! Remember those days? Just listening to the Fat man, was a treat. I think I could honestly say, I'd rather met him than any celebrity alive, or dead. It was real treat, something I'll never forget....EVER.
Fat's epitaph reads.....
"Rack em' up St. Peter, I beat EVERYBODY on EARTH!"
The ability to Hustle and play great pool are two different things....Making good games, or baiting guys into games is a skill an art...What I have read on here and in the books was that he was a 1 pocket and banks player.....Those games take a different skill set than say Straight pool or 9 ball so he played to his strengths...
If you listen to him in the Bank Shot and other great Roberies....he is the greatest ever...Which is very hard to believe...But if he had an A game and specialized in his games he played well...Hustling can be very psychological and he was a Master at that.....
Intimidation, the Psych out, and just embarassing people can give any Hustler a huge edge....Once you are in someone's head your 50 % of the way there...
If you listen to him in the Bank Shot and other great Roberies....he is the greatest ever...Which is very hard to believe...But if he had an A game and specialized in his games he played well...Hustling can be very psychological and he was a Master at that.....
Intimidation, the Psych out, and just embarassing people can give any Hustler a huge edge....Once you are in someone's head your 50 % of the way there...
Rick S. said:
WOW!!! Another great story! Do you think you could get the card scanned? That would be cool to see!
How did you know about his epitaph?
Jude Rosenstock said:
Just scanned it for you. I carried it in my wallet for years, and it's become quite tattered. Across the top it DID say...'I have been hustled by" Then at the bottom it said "The Legendary Minnesota Fats" and then his signature.
It's something I'll never forget.
He's buried in Goodletsville. (suburb of Nashville) Same town my son still lives in. Right down the road from Jimmy Reid. I have read everything I could get my hands on about him.
Just bought and read "Minnesota Fats......The Bank Shot, and other great robberies". Just re-released after about 30 yrs, or so. Written by R.A. Dyer. It's quite a book, with many TERIFFIC stories in it.
Rick S.
Attachments
Rick S. said:
WOW!!! Thank you! This is a true gift!
This IS a great thread. I know I see him in a new light and give him more due respect to his game than I once did. This thread is as good as reading a book about him.
WOW - I have been following the thread with high interest.Rick S. said:
Just had to say thanks for taking the time to scan and post the image of the business card.
Things like this are hard to forget,
Myron
Legendary ....says it all.
The guys was amazing. He could actually have you believing he WAS the best that ever lived. He was one smooth talker... And with a mind like a trap! Even at his age, he was still SHARP!
I was one lucky fellow! Especially to have a Wife that suggested I go meet him. She loved every minute of it too... Just wished I would have brought a camera with me.
He took his gift of pool, and gab, around the world many times.
They broke the mold after him, really don't think there will ever be another Fats. Nobody's even close......
Rick S.
The guys was amazing. He could actually have you believing he WAS the best that ever lived. He was one smooth talker... And with a mind like a trap! Even at his age, he was still SHARP!
I was one lucky fellow! Especially to have a Wife that suggested I go meet him. She loved every minute of it too... Just wished I would have brought a camera with me.
He took his gift of pool, and gab, around the world many times.
They broke the mold after him, really don't think there will ever be another Fats. Nobody's even close......
Rick S.