How many of you can beat the 9-ball ghost?

[Colin Colenso]

You're talking about playing the ghost without bih, though, right? If so, then I would agree. With 5" pockets and bih after the break, though, I'd expect a solid B to B+ player to be about even money playing short to medium races.

With the stats I'm supposing, that would be with BIH after the break, but no combos on the 9 from BIH and 4.75" pockets, standardish speed table.

One's personal best and what there average performance is can vary a lot. Good players often miss a lot more under pressure until they find their zone, table speed etc.

I recall people assuming the IPT would see 8-ball Break and Run percentages of 60-70%, but actually the best are only getting around 40% and the #50 ranked level is close to 30%. Which means the top 50ish type players are barely beating the 8-ball ghost on the shot after the break. And most of these players are accomplished name players.

Yet if we had a survey here, I could imagine a relatively large percentage of players would assume they could give the 8-ball ghost (without BIH) a run for the money.

Generally, it seems most such stat estimates are over estimated. It would be useful to have more comprehensive data from total tournament play, and for players of various levels to collect their stats over time. Unfortunately, doing so will probably make them appear to be a worse player than they actually are to the readers. Hence people like to talk more about personal records than average performances.

Colin

 

[jhendri2]

No ball in hand after the break is too difficult. I've seen the ghost played many times by world class talent, and the bet has always been with ball in hand after the break. As I mentioned before, if the 9-ball ghost is too easy, you can add balls.


Regards, Doug

I'll try BIH after the break tonight and see how I do. Again, the only "world class player" I've seen was Pagulayan and he wasn't taking BIH after the break either. This was at JOB's in Nashville around 3-4 years ago. It may have been part of the bet though.

It still seems like cheating to me. Playing the ghost, is supposed to be just like an opponent, and I've never had an opponent give me BIH after the break.

JMO,

Jim

 

[Cornerman]

Yet if we had a survey here, I could imagine a relatively large percentage of players would assume they could give the 8-ball ghost (without BIH) a run for the money.

Not me. I've played a few 8-ball tournaments on 9' tables that tracked B&R's. Normally, the highest percentage was in the 30-40% range, and these are solid B tournaments. That loses to the Ghost.

Neils Feijen snuck into an amateur 8-ball tournament in Massachusetts and seemed B&R every rack he broke.

Fred

 

[JoeyInCali]

For what it's worth, Jeannete Lee took the 9-ball ghost challenge at my local hall.
She got ball in hand after the break on a table with generous pockets.
This was back in 94. She did win half the games and lost the bet.

 

[jhendri2]

Not me. I've played a few 8-ball tournaments on 9' tables that tracked B&R's. Normally, the highest percentage was in the 30-40% range, and these are solid B tournaments. That loses to the Ghost.

Neils Feijen snuck into an amateur 8-ball tournament in Massachusetts and seemed B&R every rack he broke.

Fred

I had the opportunity to play 8-ball with Jim Rempe in Germany at an EXPO in '91 or '92. He may as well have been playing the ghost. It seemed as though he broke and ran every rack.

Jim

 

[Aaron_S]

It still seems like cheating to me.

LOL, that's what I was thinking when I played some of it last night. Seems like you should at least spot anything that drops on the break if you're going to take bih. I normally practice against the 15 ball ghost, and I don't feel any guilt at all by taking bih in that game, but in 9-ball it just feels wrong.

 

[Pete]

With the stats I'm supposing, that would be with BIH after the break, but no combos on the 9 from BIH and 4.75" pockets, standardish speed table.

One's personal best and what there average performance is can vary a lot. Good players often miss a lot more under pressure until they find their zone, table speed etc.

I recall people assuming the IPT would see 8-ball Break and Run percentages of 60-70%, but actually the best are only getting around 40% and the #50 ranked level is close to 30%. Which means the top 50ish type players are barely beating the 8-ball ghost on the shot after the break. And most of these players are accomplished name players.

Yet if we had a survey here, I could imagine a relatively large percentage of players would assume they could give the 8-ball ghost (without BIH) a run for the money.

Generally, it seems most such stat estimates are over estimated. It would be useful to have more comprehensive data from total tournament play, and for players of various levels to collect their stats over time. Unfortunately, doing so will probably make them appear to be a worse player than they actually are to the readers. Hence people like to talk more about personal records than average performances.

Colin

Hi there,

I've been reading this thread and feeling that I must really suck. If i play the 6 ball ghost yes 6 ball, I'm lucky, yes lucky to beat that ghost, but I will ussaully lose like 60-80% of the time.

Now I just was at a Pro tournament this past weekend and don't remember seeing anyone string B&Rs not even 2 packs. I find it hard to beleive that on an average night so many players play at such high levels but there are only a couple of hundred people that enter the US open.

I'm not saying people are lying or exagerating, but if there is that much talent out there why aren't there more players on the Accu-stats tapes.

I think Pat Flemming or maybe Grady should come out and give some thoughts on skill level.

And I would love for the Pro players on this board (the ones that post there real names) tell us what Ghost they beat on a regular basis. I remember that CJ Wiley (at the top of his game) said he breaks even playing the 12 ball ghost. But he was at the time one of the best players in the world.

I also think it would be awesome if people would bring their video caras with them and tape and post them beating the ghost so easilly.

I think that I'm going to give up, because it seems like I have no hope when I read threads like this...

Pete

 

[hobokenapa]

Gonna give this a proper go tonight. I was down 6-4 down when my session ended on Wed. One win was a combo, but the first three I did the hard work and missed the 7 in one, the 8 in the next, and then the 9 in the third.

I really need to give this a good four or five matches to see how I do. But I will post my results. I'm a mid-range B+ player. My expectation is if I play five sets race to 9, one set I'll get close (hill-hill) or win close, the others I'll lose by an average of 9-5.

Capelle's new book mentioned the "modified ghost" where you can break up one cluster.

 

[JimBo]

Hey Jimbo,

Just because you ain't hacking it, don't project inadequacies on others and call them liars. It doesn't take an A+ player. It takes an A-, and even a strong B+ can barbeque the ghost with bih. I know.. Because I was a strong B+ rapidly improving, and could beat the ghost consistently.

You just don't realize how strong bih after the break is. Any shortstop would kill any top pro if they got spotted the breaks and bih after the breaks. A mediocre shortstop could spot Efren probably 4 games on the wire in a race to 9 this way. When I come back from Iraq, I'll take you up on your offer, and I am certainly no pro. If you'll fade $500 sets, I'm with it.

Do you seriously think only 4 or 5 people on this whole forum can run out with bih after the break? SERIOUSLY? 9 ball ain't the hardest game in the world, once you get an open shot. A lot of people think playing the ghost for money is pressure-packed. Sorry, not for me. Knowing the ghost can only punish me one game at a time boosts my confidence and helps me get out in very tough racks.

A month of practice when I get back from over here and I'll rob you. I'll have plenty of money. Wanna freeze up a grand?

Russ

I wasn't counting BIH after the break, around these parts you break and shoot from where it lies, that's assuming you made a ball on the break, which is also a part of it, since I doubt you make a ball on every break, which of course I am sure you are going to claim you do. Fact is I did and am still calling these people liars, 22% of the poll said they can beat the ghost consistantly, it's not that easy. You have the bet, come to CT. I'm sorry it seems to be a fact that most people play 2 balls better from their keyboards then on a real table, and most times when you meet you'll get more excuses then run outs.

Jim

 

[JimBo]

Hi there,

I've been reading this thread and feeling that I must really suck. If i play the 6 ball ghost yes 6 ball, I'm lucky, yes lucky to beat that ghost, but I will ussaully lose like 60-80% of the time.

Don't feel bad, I'd guess you're right in line with most of the posters here.

Now I just was at a Pro tournament this past weekend and don't remember seeing anyone string B&Rs not even 2 packs. I find it hard to beleive that on an average night so many players play at such high levels but there are only a couple of hundred people that enter the US open.

Again don't take all posts as truth, also there is a large discrepancy between top level pros and regional pros, you'd be surprised the weight some pros are willing to give to other *pros*.

I'm not saying people are lying or exagerating, but if there is that much talent out there why aren't there more players on the Accu-stats tapes.

I already said they were lying, trust me your game goes up 2 balls from the keyboard.

I think Pat Flemming or maybe Grady should come out and give some thoughts on skill level.

And I would love for the Pro players on this board (the ones that post there real names) tell us what Ghost they beat on a regular basis. I remember that CJ Wiley (at the top of his game) said he breaks even playing the 12 ball ghost. But he was at the time one of the best players in the world.

Again there are top players who would drill the ghost, but I don't see B+ players doing it consistantly. And there are many different rules to the ghost, no BIH or No early combos, do breaks count?? Stuff like that.

I also think it would be awesome if people would bring their video caras with them and tape and post them beating the ghost so easilly.

Even if they showed a video it wouldn't be proof that they do it consistantly, again we aren't talking about beating the ghost one out of 5 times, it's consistantly that is also a huge part of this poll.

I think that I'm going to give up, because it seems like I have no hope when I read threads like this...

Pete

Again don't believe what you read, also keep in mind that this is the WWW and people from all over post here, trust me it's not comon place for people in your local pool room to drill the ghost.

Jim

 

[Colin Colenso]

Not me. I've played a few 8-ball tournaments on 9' tables that tracked B&R's. Normally, the highest percentage was in the 30-40% range, and these are solid B tournaments. That loses to the Ghost.

Neils Feijen snuck into an amateur 8-ball tournament in Massachusetts and seemed B&R every rack he broke.

Fred

Well he is one of the better break and runners in the IPT, but still around 40% total B&R, which I suspect is about an 8-6 average over the 8-ball (no bih) ghost if we assume he makes a legal wet break at 65% which by my estimates would be close to true.

IPT tables are a bit harder than the average tables, particularly with respect to making balls off the break, but I wouldn't expect the figures to deviate markedly. Maybe 15% more on the wet breaks and 10% more on the conversion.

What seems to happen is often not a true reflection of typical performance. People tend to remember the shining parts of performances.

Colin

 

[Colin Colenso]

I wasn't counting BIH after the break, around these parts you break and shoot from where it lies, that's assuming you made a ball on the break, which is also a part of it, since I doubt you make a ball on every break, which of course I am sure you are going to claim you do. Fact is I did and am still calling these people liars, 22% of the poll said they can beat the ghost consistantly, it's not that easy. You have the bet, come to CT.

Jim

No one in the world can fade those odds consistantly, save for huge pockets and setting their own racks perhaps. The best 9-ball tourney players BRO at around 30-40% tops from the stats I've read.

I'd like to see someone offer Russ the chance to run 2 sets out of 3, races to 7 with BIH after break. Given 30 mins to warm up on a standard 4.75" pocket table with a dozen or so onlookers. All fouls counted as loss.

He maybe capable of doing it for all I know, but maybe some poker character out there has a read on him as a choker / windblower. Would certainly be interesting to find out.

Colin

 

[Cory in DC]

No one in the world can fade those odds consistantly, save for huge pockets and setting their own racks perhaps. The best 9-ball tourney players BRO at around 30-40% tops from the stats I've read.

I'd like to see someone offer Russ the chance to run 2 sets out of 3, races to 7. Given 30 mins to warm up on a standard 4.75" pocket table with a dozen or so onlookers. All fouls counted as loss.

He maybe capable of doing it for all I know, but maybe some poker character out there has a read on him as a choker / windblower. Would certainly be interesting to find out.

Colin

IIRC, Capelle analyzed 500 matches for his Play Your Best 9-Ball and came up with a stat of 33% B&Rs for the pros he analyzed. On any given day, that means a lot of pros could beat Jimbo's version of the ghost (no BIH, no fouls, must make ball on break), but very few if any are the favorite.

Cory

 

[Colin Colenso]

IIRC, Capelle analyzed 500 matches for his Play Your Best 9-Ball and came up with a stat of 33% B&Rs for the pros he analyzed. On any given day, that means a lot of pros could beat Jimbo's version of the ghost (no BIH, no fouls, must make ball on break), but very few if any are the favorite.

Cory

I recall it was 30%, but may be wrong, and I don't know if it was stats from a single tourney, highlight matches or near end tourney matches.

But based on that stat, it would seem unlikely any player can consistantly beat the ghost under those rules. Though many could during a hot run.

Anyone have more info?

Colin

 

[Moronix]

In a race to 9 I usually lose by about 9-4 or 9-5. But I'm 66 years old. That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it.

 

[Travis Bickle]

Assuming BIH and no need to make a ball on the break -- which I always took to be the basic rules -- does anyone who tortures the ghost want to share some strategy? For instance, do you break side rail, hoping to make a couple of balls? Or maybe go at it from the center, looking mainly for a good spread?

 

[cheemagun]

I'll try BIH after the break tonight and see how I do. Again, the only "world class player" I've seen was Pagulayan and he wasn't taking BIH after the break either. This was at JOB's in Nashville around 3-4 years ago. It may have been part of the bet though.

It still seems like cheating to me. Playing the ghost, is supposed to be just like an opponent, and I've never had an opponent give me BIH after the break.

JMO,

Jim

NO. Playing the ghost is ball in hand after the break. If somebody was betting against Pagulayan against the ghost.. it mustve been a REALLY hard table or or like you said with NO ball in hand. I dont think the ghost has the slightest chance of beating Alex. 10 or 12 ball ghost for this guy is more like it.

 

[JimBo]

I'd like to see someone offer Russ the chance to run 2 sets out of 3, races to 7 with BIH after break. Given 30 mins to warm up on a standard 4.75" pocket table with a dozen or so onlookers. All fouls counted as loss.

He maybe capable of doing it for all I know, but maybe some poker character out there has a read on him as a choker / windblower. Would certainly be interesting to find out.

Colin

I'm not saying Russ can or can't do it, of course there are some here that I am sure can do it. My issue has always been that most humans tend to over rate their ability when the chances that they have to back up the claim may never arise, the average person tends to say "I can do that" rather then to go in the other direction and be negative, even when they aren't sure. I still stand by my offer that any non-pro player can come to CT and try it. Now as for the rules, I don't mind the BIH after the break, but if that's the case I may ban early 9's or spot it if it goes early in an attempt to stop a guy from trying a 1-9 combo with BIH every time the run out looks bad or just to hit and hope. Or maybe a dry break is a loss, but if you make a ball you get BIH. But still the term consistantly comes to mind and thus my bet, sure some might be able to do it, but to do it all the time?? Well let's just say you can play at a very high level not in the B range.

Jim <----Just my opinion of course.

 

[unknownpro]

Hi there,

I've been reading this thread and feeling that I must really suck. If i play the 6 ball ghost yes 6 ball, I'm lucky, yes lucky to beat that ghost, but I will ussaully lose like 60-80% of the time.

Now I just was at a Pro tournament this past weekend and don't remember seeing anyone string B&Rs not even 2 packs. I find it hard to beleive that on an average night so many players play at such high levels but there are only a couple of hundred people that enter the US open.

I'm not saying people are lying or exagerating, but if there is that much talent out there why aren't there more players on the Accu-stats tapes.

I think Pat Flemming or maybe Grady should come out and give some thoughts on skill level.

And I would love for the Pro players on this board (the ones that post there real names) tell us what Ghost they beat on a regular basis. I remember that CJ Wiley (at the top of his game) said he breaks even playing the 12 ball ghost. But he was at the time one of the best players in the world.

I also think it would be awesome if people would bring their video caras with them and tape and post them beating the ghost so easilly.

I think that I'm going to give up, because it seems like I have no hope when I read threads like this...

Pete

You are right Pete. Even 6-ball (856 rating) is harder than most people think. Probably because the balls are not necessarilly any closer to the pocket than in 10-ball.

unknownpro

 

[etimmons]

ghost

I'm not saying Russ can or can't do it, of course there are some here that I am sure can do it. My issue has always been that most humans tend to over rate their ability when the chances that they have to back up the claim may never arise, the average person tends to say "I can do that" rather then to go in the other direction and be negative, even when they aren't sure. I still stand by my offer that any non-pro player can come to CT and try it. Now as for the rules, I don't mind the BIH after the break, but if that's the case I may ban early 9's or spot it if it goes early in an attempt to stop a guy from trying a 1-9 combo with BIH every time the run out looks bad or just to hit and hope. Or maybe a dry break is a loss, but if you make a ball you get BIH. But still the term consistantly comes to mind and thus my bet, sure some might be able to do it, but to do it all the time?? Well let's just say you can play at a very high level not in the B range.

Jim <----Just my opinion of course.

I can beat the ghost but it all depends on what table on how well I do. On bar table it is no challenge. On a gold crown with standard pockets I win 50 percent of the time in races to 11. with 41/2 in pockets about 35% of the time in a race to 11. Ball in hand after the break. I play the ghost almost every day. We gamble here in ohio on the ghost alot. Chris Bartrem plays 12 ball on diamonds and he usually wins. Any less balls for players of his speed the player will rob the ghost.