How many Pro level players would you say there are residing in the US?

[justinb386]

Buddy you keep bringing up 10 ball,no ball in hand or racking aid(majic rack etc..) and i am a gambler,so if anyone you know (other than shane and i might let him try too) wants to try this in a race to 10 tell me how much you want to bet and lets count down.seriously.

I do not even think that SVB could beat the ghost in a race to 10 (with no ball in hand) on a consistent bases. I wonder how well he could do even in perfect table conditions, and being able to use the magic rack, and also be able to rack the balls however he wants to. Could he get decent shape on the 1 ball (good enough to make the 1 and get out) more then 50% of the time, even with the help of the magic rack? I do not know.

 

[Ched]

That is really interesting. I did not know that Fats was that famous. Was he that famous before The Hustler came out, or more famous after the movie came out? Just curious.

That is really cool that the sport of pool is that big in China.

My guess would be that mostly AFTER the movie. My understanding is that the majority of his "fame" was the controversy. He claimed that the Gleason character was modeled after himself - where most other folks claim that simply wasn't true. I've heard that before the movie, he was known as "New York Fats". I remember watching a couple matches between him and Mosconi The two of them never seemed to get along well on camera; Fats was always yapping and telling tall tales - while Mosconi was always quiet and more dignified. Fats seemed to have a way of getting under peoples skin. He didn't have particularly good form .. but he did shoot a hell of a good stick.

Just all IMHO,
Ched

 

[justinb386]

next your gonna tell us Ruth was higher profile than Greenleaf lol

Fats would smash Ali with his mouth lol. Fats was round long time before Ali lol

Babe Ruth? I heard that Ralph Greenleaf was a celebrity in his era, but was he really as well known as Babe Ruth? I think not.

 

[justinb386]

First of all Rhea, thank you for the really strong contribution you made to this thread. These are great posts. I didn't think anybody would go to the trouble of answering Justin's posts.

I don't think all of the players above could do it, but consider that some of them, especially those with the most effective break, will break and run 20% - 25% of the games anyway. So now all they have to do is break and play position on the 1 ball, and get out 25% to 30% of the rest of the time.

It would be close with no BIH, but I think there would be money on both sides on a Diamond Pro table. It would be a fun proposition game for streaming.

I think that the ghost needs to give games on the wire (not sure how many) to any of the players mentioned. They need not make a ball on the break, and they may continue shooting (without ball in hand). Think about it. Using the magic rack makes it so much easier to control all of the balls on the table (if they are allowed to pattern rack the balls), but even if the ghost allows them to do both of those things, then what are the odds of even the very best players in the world getting shape on the 1 ball more then 50% of the time, and with a decent layout of the table, so that they can get out? Maybe then they might have a chance, but take away the magic rack, and pattern racking, and make them play on a worn in 9 foot Diamond, and then I think their chances of beating the ghost (without ball in hand after the break) is far worse. People will say the the top pro's could do it all day long, but how much of their hard earned money would they be willing to bet on a match like that, against the ghost?

 

[justinb386]

Shane and Shaw both live here, so 2. Nobody else is making a living if those 2 are playing in the event.

Most underrated player Donnie Mills, has a job and I'd bet on him against anybody that's not on the top 7 for the fargo usa list.
Actually Shane, MD, Berg, and Sky. I feel he is close enough to the rest that ya'll got action. I also cannot bet against Earl
Jason

I was actually wondering about pro level players (who have the skill to beat any of the well known pro players from time to time), not players who just play pool, and try their best to make a living by just playing pool.

And what about Johnny Archer? Is his game not anywhere near what it used to be? Would you say Donnie Mills plays stronger then him (at 9 ball for example)?

Thanks for your reply.

 

[TATE]

I think that the ghost needs to give games on the wire (not sure how many) to any of the players mentioned. They need not make a ball on the break, and they may continue shooting (without ball in hand). Think about it. Using the magic rack makes it so much easier to control all of the balls on the table (if they are allowed to pattern rack the balls), but even if the ghost allows them to do both of those things, then what are the odds of even the very best players in the world getting shape on the 1 ball more then 50% of the time, and with a decent layout of the table, so that they can get out? Maybe then they might have a chance, but take away the magic rack, and pattern racking, and make them play on a worn in 9 foot Diamond, and then I think their chances of beating the ghost (without ball in hand after the break) is far worse. People will say the the top pro's could do it all day long, but how much of their hard earned money would they be willing to bet on a match like that, against the ghost?

I agree it would be an interesting proposition bet. Most of us don't understand just how exceptional the top players are. I think there are a handful of players that would have a good chance of doing it on a standard Diamond. Shane would be my pick.

For example, here's our own PoolManis doing it. He's a regular poster on AZ. I don't know if he's a pro or not but he is a darn good player. He beats the "no BIH" ghost here 7-5.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ul7mkpfFtzI&feature=youtu.be

 

[garczar]

Jiaqing Wu, Shane Van Boening, Dennis Orcollo, Jayson Shaw, Niels Feijen, Pin Yi Ko, Jung Lin Chang, Carlo Biado, Ping Chung Ko, Alex Pagulayan, Francisco Sanchez Ruiz, Lee Van Corteza, Mike Dechaine, Francisco Bustamante, Jundel Mazon, Efren Reyes, Johann Chua, Kun Lin Wu, Justin Bergman

All 19 of those people can probably break even with the 10 ball ghost without ball in hand.

Have you ever watched 10ball? Break even without BIH? NO way.

 

[jay helfert]

My guess would be that mostly AFTER the movie. My understanding is that the majority of his "fame" was the controversy. He claimed that the Gleason character was modeled after himself - where most other folks claim that simply wasn't true. I've heard that before the movie, he was known as "New York Fats". I remember watching a couple matches between him and Mosconi The two of them never seemed to get along well on camera; Fats was always yapping and telling tall tales - while Mosconi was always quiet and more dignified. Fats seemed to have a way of getting under peoples skin. He didn't have particularly good form .. but he did shoot a hell of a good stick.

Just all IMHO,
Ched

This is closer to the truth. I outlined the whole story of his rise to fame in my book Pool Wars. He was known as New York Fats prior to The Hustler. He was smart enough to capitalize on the success of the movie and bring notoriety to himself, along with substantial income!

 

[hang-the-9]

So you're using a FargoRate of 725 or higher as the definition of "pro level."

That's not a bad way to do it since there are so many matches not tracked there. And without any other good national database or ranking system, it's the best we got.

For anyone not in the listing, we just need to look at the players they can play even with and put them there.

 

[De420MadHatter]

Babe Ruth? I heard that Ralph Greenleaf was a celebrity in his era, but was he really as well known as Babe Ruth? I think not.

He wasn't, neither was Fats. And when it comes to the mouth, Fats is way behind Ali.

 

[Scott Lee]

Which just goes to show, once again, how very little you know about pool and poolplayers. RKC has forgotten more about pool than you'll ever know. Oh, and yes, SVB IS that good!

Scott Lee
poolknowledge.com

I am not even sure if SVB is that good.

 

[jay helfert]

He wasn't, neither was Fats. And when it comes to the mouth, Fats is way behind Ali.

Actually Fats and Ali were on the Carson show one night and got into a little debate about exactly that, who was the greatest? At the conclusion Ali raised Fats hand and proclaimed him The Greatest! I don't make this shit up. :thumbup:
Greenleaf may not have been as well known and popular as Babe Ruth, no one was. But Greenleaf was still a nationally known sports celebrity in his own right, packing auditoriums just to see him put on an exhibition with his wife, Princess Nai Tai. He was also instantly recognizable to the average man on the street in his day. And so was Fats!

 

[mikepage]

Probably another double or triple this number that toil away in their local poolroom waiting to ambush some of these guys.
By the way, Geronimo is Filipino, as is Santos. Santos lives here now but Geronimo does not.

That list is players with at least 300 games in FargoRate with at least 150 of them in the last two years.

So as far as people missing from the list that play at, say 725 speed and higher, there are really two categories

First is players who are established in FargoRate but don't make the list because they don't have enough recent games. These include players like Shawn Putnam, Charlie Williams, Jason Kirkwood, Danny Harriman, Chris Bartram, Keith Bennett, Josh O'Neil, Adam Keiler, Chad Vilmont, Louis Ulrich, and the list goes on. Look up those players and you'll see a high number...

The other is strong players who are just not on our radar. This group is getting smaller...

 

[pwd72s]

I'd say fifty to a hundred....

On second thought, my estimate is probably still to low. Taking the entire country into consideration, there may be a few hundred capable of winning matches against top ranked pros. There's a lot of good pool players in the US, more than in any other country by far. Problem is that most of them are not interested in traveling the world to make a living. They either have jobs, families or other reasons for staying close to home. Maybe they just like that home cooking! Beating the roads playing pool is a hard way to make an easy living.

Sums it up well. At my age, I couldn't imagine a worse lifestyle than that of a travelling pro pool player. I'm far from a skilled player, but these days I hate travel, hotel rooms, restaurant meals...and especially lack of sleep. All of these things upset my system. I need a regular routine for health reasons...

 

[tucson9ball]

Speaking of Pros in Arizona...
I can only think of 2, Mitch Ellerman and Scott Frost.
There are a small bunch of players a notch below these, but in a Pro tourney with 128 players, they would be dead money.

 

[pro9dg]

I really cannot see the point of this question. There is no professional structure in the USA. So determining if a player is or is not a pro is irrelevant.

American players (with only one exception) rarely play outside America.

None of the great US unknowns would succeed until they got down to about 2000th
place in China. They would struggle against any of the top 200 players in the Philippines
and fare just as badly against any of the top 150 players in Europe.

So the only answer to your question is that there is only ONE true pro in all of the USA

 

[The-Professor]

I really cannot see the point of this question. There is no professional structure in the USA. So determining if a player is or is not a pro is irrelevant.

American players (with only one exception) rarely play outside America.

None of the great US unknowns would succeed until they got down to about 2000th
place in China. They would struggle against any of the top 200 players in the Philippines
and fare just as badly against any of the top 150 players in Europe.

So the only answer to your question is that there is only ONE true pro in all of the USA

Isn't this mostly true of all countries. I mean our players don't fly to play in other countries.. but only a handful of players from any given country fly over here to play on a regular basis. I'm also guessing the travel is more dependent on cost/benefit and less on ones actual ability to play pool at a professional speed.

I may be wrong, but I don't think there are 200 guys in China or the Philippines who could match up with Justin Bergman and win consistently.

 

[Jaden]

I can think of several from Texas...several from oklahoma...etc...

In that case I would venture to guess 500-1000...? I can think of more than 20 off the top of my head here in Texas.

Yeah I'm assuming that Jui Lung Chin is one of those from Texas you're thinking of...

I really don't wanna comment too much on this topic but yeah, there are probably several hundred players that are capable of playing top level pool in the US. The states that have the most top players have already been mentioned. New York, Cali and Florida... and several others not far off.

Jaden