How quickly can you gauge a player's speed?

[Bob Jewett]

I'm interested to know how much time is needed for any of you to approximate a player's speed ? Do you need to see him/her in a gambling situation? Can you judge it just as well in a tournament match? Is it possible to do it simply by observing a short practice session ? How much observation time do you need to make your initial determination in each scenario or is it impossible to do without additional information?
I'll be curious to hear your opinions, thanks

It's not clear what you mean by "approximate". The word implies some accuracy or error limits. "He's real good" is not a useful description of someones speed. "If he plays Shane for a thousand, he needs five on the wire going to ten, and I'll bet a lot if he gets six" is a much more useful description.

If you are interested in your own speed, the best way to measure it is to get into a fairly handicapped league situation. Such leagues exist; you may have to start your own locally.

A less satisfactory way to measure your speed is with any of several tests. Dr. Dave's web site has a great variety of such tests. Fargo, Equal Offense, the Billiard U test, progressive practice, Hopkin's Q-Skill test, .... Those can hint at how well you will play in actual competition.

At the high end, it comes down to consistency, mostly. What fraction of the shots does a player miss? That fraction is very small at the top. In a 9 ball match between Louie Roberts and Mike Sigel, there was one miss between them and the match went hill-hill. With one miss in two hours, it's really hard to tell who the better player was. On a good day, top players will miss 1% or less, so it could take you a long time to tell whether a particular player was a 0.5% or a 2% player.

 

[BRussell]

One thing that pool players seem to overlook is that the author of the original study was talking about elite performers who had 10,000 hours of coached, directed practice time.

... in music. And they were little kids.

 

[jay helfert]

Jay,
Thanks for weighing in. I very much value your opinion and your insight into the sport we love. My problem is that those 10,000 PLUS hours were logged from the late 70's thru the early 90's before I gave up the game for 15 years. These days, due to back, neck, shoulder and hip problems, long sessions top out at about 3-4 hours. I have been told by more than one person that speeding up my game would vastly improve it. Short of installing a shot clock in my head, do you have any suggestions for quickly getting me into and staying in a rhythm that would bring out my best game?

Do this - Throw balls on the table and just shoot real hard at any ball for 15-20 minutes, taking only one practice stroke each time. Just get down on the ball and fire away. Don't worry about making anything, just hit them HARD! Long shots are the best for this drill. Just bang those balls for a while without taking more than one practice stroke. Get down and shoot, over and over again. This is a drill designed to unlimber your arm and relax you before shooting.

After this go back to playing again at your regular pace. See if you haven't sped up the process a little. I would do this every day for a few days or even a week. I don't think it will take you long to train yourself to get down and shoot faster with a lot less hesitation. You are building a new muscle memory. After that it's just practice to smooth it all out. Good luck, check back with me in a month. :wink:

 

[David Marcus]

Do this - Throw balls on the table and just shoot real hard at any ball for 15-20 minutes, taking only one practice stroke each time. Just get down on the ball and fire away. Don't worry about making anything, just hit them HARD! Long shots are the best for this drill. Just bang those balls for a while without taking more than one practice stroke. Get down and shoot, over and over again. This is a drill designed to unlimber your arm and relax you before shooting.

After this go back to playing again at your regular pace. See if you haven't sped up the process a little. I would do this every day for a few days or even a week. I don't think it will take you long to train yourself to get down and shoot faster with a lot less hesitation. You are building a new muscle memory. After that it's just practice to smooth it all out. Good luck, check back with me in a month. :wink:

Thanks, that's the kind of advice I was looking for. I'll keep you posted on my progress.:thumbup:

 

[jay helfert]

Thanks, that's the kind of advice I was looking for. I'll keep you posted on my progress.:thumbup:

David, many of my techniques are not conventional and it's doubtful other teachers would use them. In fact I take the risk of being criticized on here by other qualified instructors. Let's just say my suggestions come from years of experience. I have other similar drills I've used with good results as well. All are designed to speed up the learning process. Once again twenty minutes a day of hitting balls hard (long straight-ins the best) will definitely improve your stroke.

 

[poolguy4u]

Do this - Throw balls on the table and just shoot real hard at any ball for 15-20 minutes, taking only one practice stroke each time. Just get down on the ball and fire away. Don't worry about making anything, just hit them HARD! Long shots are the best for this drill. Just bang those balls for a while without taking more than one practice stroke. Get down and shoot, over and over again. This is a drill designed to unlimber your arm and relax you before shooting.

After this go back to playing again at your regular pace. See if you haven't sped up the process a little. I would do this every day for a few days or even a week. I don't think it will take you long to train yourself to get down and shoot faster with a lot less hesitation. You are building a new muscle memory. After that it's just practice to smooth it all out. Good luck, check back with me in a month. :wink:

I actually tell people to do the same thing.

Start out shooting hard on every shot.


Then after ten or fifteen minutes or so, then shoot soft on every

shot...just soft enough to roll the ball in.


And you are right when shooting hard---doesn't matter if you make

the balls, because even when you miss you know why and you will adjust.


Of course there is a lot more but this is good. Worked for me.


Yeah...people think I'm crazy too but I've been around for a long time.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Wearing glasses is the single most deceptive thing I ever did to disguise my playing

There's little chance to tell a top hustler's true playing speed if they don't want you to.

The good news is there's very few true hustlers left these days. Players like JR Weldon mastered the art of hustling/stalling and has fooled many a "seasoned eye". I traveled with him from the age of 19-22 and it was like a college course on gambling.

I used to carry my money in a wallet (because pool players didn't), wear cowboy boots (same reason), and usually play "off the wall"..... disguising my playing speed was tricky, however, since I knew exactly what to look for (to detect playing speeds) I also knew how to fool the watchful eyes of the "house scouts".

Wearing glasses is the single most deceptive thing I ever did to disguise my playing speed (and myself).....it's interesting how few players took me as a serious threat when I was wearing glasses.....this was a financially fatal mistake.


I sat in the backseat, thumping through my partners roadmap. Each state had
many towns circled with names, numbers and descriptions beside them. I knew
if I wanted more detail they also had a "spot book" that would have every
player in each town with a description of them and an order in which we
would ideally "take the town off".

You see we weren't interested in just
beating someone playing pool, we were out to beat the whole town out of as
much as possible. Most little towns had their "champion" that everybody
would bet on and usually we would have to play him to win a big score, but
not always. I have been a part of huge scores where we were playing someone
that couldn't hit the ocean if they were standing on the beach. I wasn't
the one that was usually playing the pigeons. That was usually done by my
partner that looked more like a football player than a pool player, but
don't ever let looks deceive you, he could play right under championship
speed, especially on the bar size tables.

Sometimes it was difficult to even know what state we were in when we
finally got a hotel at the end of the night, but I didn't even care. I just
needed to find my next opponent like a junkie needs that next fix. I loved
the action, but more importantly I loved to win the money. There are many
people that think they are "pool hustlers" but there are several levels that
most are unaware of.

First you have the scuffler. He is the bottom feeder
and constantly moves around to different bars looking for someone that is
either drunk or simply can't play. This type guy wouldn't bet two big dogs
could whip a little dog and usually won't even put up $100 unless he sees
buzzards flying over the poor victim. Next you have the typical hustler.
This guy usually plays better than he looks and knows a thousand and one
proposition games that look to good to be true and definitely are.


We like some of these guys, but they don't really get any true respect from my
group. Then there are the "players". These guys play like burning hell as
long as they can't lose any of there own money. They usually have a
"stake-horse" that puts up the money and they play their hearts out.
Unfortunately their hearts aren't that resilient and even though they play
well and run balls properly, when they get up against the elite group
they know their place and usually bow out peacefully once they know
they are in a bad game.

The next group are the ones that we get
involved with and it is purely business. I know they will get the money and
we don't have to worry about gambling, but strategically milk the room for the
maximum amount. We are called the "road warriors". We stay on the road
because once people know who we are and how we play they would rather gargle
razor blades than play us for any amount of money. Not only will they lose
their precious to us, chances are they will lose their self esteem (temporarily) as
well. we relish the thought of not only beating another player, but enjoy sending to a shrink for a month or two. The beauty is
there's no physical harm, unlike a boxer that can cause brain damage
physically, we just wanted to cause damage mentally and financially.

"We have arrived! You better write down your names so you don't forget this
time".

I reached into the front seat and was handed the "spot book".......To Be Continued - Part 2 of this story will be posted on request, along with "code" terms used by Road Players

Is there a way to tell if they are playing their top speed?

 

[jay helfert]

There's little chance to tell a top hustler's true playing speed if they don't want you to.

The good news is there's very few true hustlers left these days. Players like JR Weldon mastered the art of hustling/stalling and has fooled many a "seasoned eye". I traveled with him from the age of 19-22 and it was like a college course on gambling.

I used to carry my money in a wallet (because pool players didn't), wear cowboy boots (same reason), and usually play "off the wall"..... disguising my playing speed was tricky, however, since I knew exactly what to look for (to detect playing speeds) I also knew how to fool the watchful eyes of the "house scouts".

Wearing glasses is the single most deceptive thing I ever did to disguise my playing speed (and myself).....it's interesting how few players took me as a serious threat when I was wearing glasses.....this was a financially fatal mistake.


I sat in the backseat, thumping through my partners roadmap. Each state had
many towns circled with names, numbers and descriptions beside them. I knew
if I wanted more detail they also had a "spot book" that would have every
player in each town with a description of them and an order in which we
would ideally "take the town off".

You see we weren't interested in just
beating someone playing pool, we were out to beat the whole town out of as
much as possible. Most little towns had their "champion" that everybody
would bet on and usually we would have to play him to win a big score, but
not always. I have been a part of huge scores where we were playing someone
that couldn't hit the ocean if they were standing on the beach. I wasn't
the one that was usually playing the pigeons. That was usually done by my
partner that looked more like a football player than a pool player, but
don't ever let looks deceive you, he could play right under championship
speed, especially on the bar size tables.

Sometimes it was difficult to even know what state we were in when we
finally got a hotel at the end of the night, but I didn't even care. I just
needed to find my next opponent like a junkie needs that next fix. I loved
the action, but more importantly I loved to win the money. There are many
people that think they are "pool hustlers" but there are several levels that
most are unaware of.

First you have the scuffler. He is the bottom feeder
and constantly moves around to different bars looking for someone that is
either drunk or simply can't play. This type guy wouldn't bet two big dogs
could whip a little dog and usually won't even put up $100 unless he sees
buzzards flying over the poor victim. Next you have the typical hustler.
This guy usually plays better than he looks and knows a thousand and one
proposition games that look to good to be true and definitely are.


We like some of these guys, but they don't really get any true respect from my
group. Then there are the "players". These guys play like burning hell as
long as they can't lose any of there own money. They usually have a
"stake-horse" that puts up the money and they play their hearts out.
Unfortunately their hearts aren't that resilient and even though they play
well and run balls properly, when they get up against the elite group
they know their place and usually bow out peacefully once they know
they are in a bad game.

The next group are the ones that we get
involved with and it is purely business. I know they will get the money and
we don't have to worry about gambling, but strategically milk the room for the
maximum amount. We are called the "road warriors". We stay on the road
because once people know who we are and how we play they would rather gargle
razor blades than play us for any amount of money. Not only will they lose
their precious to us, chances are they will lose their self esteem (temporarily) as
well. we relish the thought of not only beating another player, but enjoy sending to a shrink for a month or two. The beauty is
there's no physical harm, unlike a boxer that can cause brain damage
physically, we just wanted to cause damage mentally and financially.

"We have arrived! You better write down your names so you don't forget this
time".

I reached into the front seat and was handed the "spot book".......To Be Continued - Part 2 of this story will be posted on request, along with "code" terms used by Road Players

This is excellent CJ, one of your best posts ever. People love to read stuff like this, what it's really like out on the road. Pool players are an interesting bunch. Way before the internet we depended on each other to give us good "spots" to go to and who to play, how much to bet and what's their best game. There's a lot more to this, like CJ said, but I will let him tell you.

Weldon is a legendary hustler, even Ronnie looked up to him. Like you said there is a special thrill when you walk out of a poolroom or bar with your pockets stuffed with cash. I didn't play near CJ's speed so I had to pick my spots more carefully, but many nights I left a bar with all my pockets stuffed with one dollar bills. I didn't know how much I won until I went to the room and counted it. Sometimes it was over $100, and this was in the 60's! That was MONEY back then! :smile:

P.S. I also played 'off the wall' in every bar I went into, unless I encountered another hustler and the bet got bigger, like ten or twenty a game. If you brought your own cue into a bar back then, NO ONE would play you. You had to put up your quarter and do your best to blend in with the crowd, just be one of the guys. If everyone liked you they would keep playing, wanting to be the one who knocked you off. I wouldn't call a foul on anybody and gave them the benefit of the doubt every time. That was just good business.

 

[Johnnyt]

Walking out of a bar with pockets full with $1 bills was a great feeling back in the day, but even a better feeling than the $100, was you played it right and were invited back next week. Like you said above...you got to make them like you. Man those were the days. Johnnyt

PS:Always tip the bouncer in a bucket of blood dive.

 

[Dockter]

Thanks CJ. I love reading posts like this and hope to read many more. I just watched a video not long ago of you vs Earl in the US open and your jumps are great. It was funny listening to the commentator say over and over how jump cues should not be allowed and how they should all be thrown in an incinerator and burned.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Continued from Last Post:

I appreciate you saying that, and yes, "jump cues" have a place and a time......

Here's PART 2 of my story from a few posts earlier, it brings back memories for me to read this too......we sure had a good time back in those days.

Continued from Last Post:

I reached into the front seat and was handed the "spot book". I thumbed
through until I found the town that we were in and started to study the
information. Looks like there is one main pool room and two bars that
everybody gambles in.

The pool room had a player with a seven beside his
name and description of what he played, how much he would bet and how he had
lost the most money in the past. The other bars had a couple of scufflers
that fed off two of the regulars. One owned a car dealership and the other
was a bookmaker that took sports bets and used one of the bars as an
"office".

I immediately knew that he would be my target. The main goal
would be to go to the bar and mix with the crowd for awhile. We would get
on the pool table and bet a few dollars, but we would be more interested on
meeting the key people and putting something in their head that would elicit
greed. You can't con an honest man, right? We basically wanted everyone to
know that we had a lot of money and not much sense.

We pulled over at a little country cafe and went in to get some good food
before we were subjected to the bar scene, where pork rines were considered
a delicacy. We would also use this time to get a plan together and decide
who would play and in what order and if we would split up and cover the pool
room and the bars. I enjoyed this as much as actually playing sometimes.
Like I said before it is not the winning that was important to a road
player, but winning the maximum amount that made the difference.


I would run in to other road players that were unfortunate enough to get behind us
on a road trip. They would come in to town a day or two after we had left.
I always got a good laugh when they would comment that we would leave
nothing but tombstones in these poor pool rooms and bars. Some of the towns
wouldn't take kindly to someone asking to play for money soon after we had
tortured them. They weren't in the best of moods about gambling at pool
after we had drained them.

After we ate we started chit chatting with our waitress and started dropping a few names that were our targets. She immediately knew one of them and started to give us personal information about him. He will never know that he was “set up” by a friend of his without her even knowing it.

It is amazing how often someone we would meet would actually know one of the names on our list and unknowingly give us detailed information on where to find them and how to approach them.
Sometimes our spot book wasn't up to date and there would be another place to play in town or another player that we could key on. It didn't matter, once we were in town for a few hours we knew we would have all the info we would need to take off a score.

This was our business and we knew it very, very well. We got directions to where we needed to go and we headed for the car. As I stepped out the door I could feel the flakes of snow falling and got an instant adrenaline rush. I knew tonight everyone would be inside, out of the weather and doing what they enjoyed most, gambling at pool.

Little did any of them know who had just come into their little town and what was in store for the ones that would play a stranger a game of pool. I got into the backseat of the car and started to rehearse my lines and fantasize about winning my biggest score as we prepared to go to the nights “office” and see what our “bosses” were willing to pay us at the chance of beating us out of our money that would be the day!

“ What are we going to say we’re doing in this redneck megalopolis”?

“ Stop at this gas station and I’ll get a newspaper. There’s got to be something going on around here. Maybe a goat roping or a gay rights parade.”

We pulled in and I got out to get a paper.......Continued later in PART 3

Thanks CJ. I love reading posts like this and hope to read many more. I just watched a video not long ago of you vs Earl in the US open and your jumps are great. It was funny listening to the commentator say over and over how jump cues should not be allowed and how they should all be thrown in an incinerator and burned.

 

[Johnnyt]

Keep it going CJ...please. Johnnyt

 

[(((Satori)))]

Great stories CJ. It's cool to hear how smart and calculated you guys were.

 

[efirkey]

David, I watched two games. That was enough for me to see everything I wanted to see. I'm wondering if this is you shooting and are just looking for an evaluation of your own game.

Now this guy is probably a very nice guy and all that, but as a pool player he is only fair. He is what I call an average player. He has a grasp of the game and how to play 9-Ball, is a decent shot maker and understands proper position. But that's about as far as I will go with the accolades. His break is weak (he changed it from game one to game two), there is no power or fluidity in his stroke, he has no rhythm to his play and he hesitates a lot when getting ready to shoot, looking kind of herky jerky in the process.

He missed a couple of relatively easy shots and even got hooked on an easy position shot, kicked only fair (missing two kicks in two games), got out of line several times, shot the wrong shot (wrong pocket), and struggled to get out with open racks (and he didn't). I'm certain he couldn't run out a tough rack, and would probably get weak under pressure playing against a decent player.

Guys like this are the ones pool players look for. A good shortstop would chew him up and spit him out. In my rating system a B player is the same as a shortstop. This guy could not beat a B player! He is maybe a C+ at best. Again, probably a nice guy, and still a decent player, good enough to win in the local bar and against guys who can't really play that well. That's where I would rate him David.

You are 100% right in your assessment

 

[BRussell]

David, I watched two games. That was enough for me to see everything I wanted to see. I'm wondering if this is you shooting and are just looking for an evaluation of your own game.

Now this guy is probably a very nice guy and all that, but as a pool player he is only fair. He is what I call an average player. He has a grasp of the game and how to play 9-Ball, is a decent shot maker and understands proper position. But that's about as far as I will go with the accolades. His break is weak (he changed it from game one to game two), there is no power or fluidity in his stroke, he has no rhythm to his play and he hesitates a lot when getting ready to shoot, looking kind of herky jerky in the process.

He missed a couple of relatively easy shots and even got hooked on an easy position shot, kicked only fair (missing two kicks in two games), got out of line several times, shot the wrong shot (wrong pocket), and struggled to get out with open racks (and he didn't). I'm certain he couldn't run out a tough rack, and would probably get weak under pressure playing against a decent player.

Guys like this are the ones pool players look for. A good shortstop would chew him up and spit him out. In my rating system a B player is the same as a shortstop. This guy could not beat a B player! He is maybe a C+ at best. Again, probably a nice guy, and still a decent player, good enough to win in the local bar and against guys who can't really play that well. That's where I would rate him David.

I'm not even convinced he's a nice guy.

 

[pt109]

Some good road stories....
....CJ...paying the rent.
:clapping:

 

[CJ Wiley]

per your request, here's PART 3 of my "ROAD STORIES".

Thanks, Johnny, I know these remind a lot of us "how it used to be on the road" - per your request, here's PART 3 of my "ROAD STORIES".

This was a standard routine before taking off a town. We would definitely get the third degree at some point during the night and preparation was very important. If we didn't have a purpose for being in the town it would make the locals very suspicious, but on the other hand if we convinced them that we were there for a legitimate reason (other than to hustle them out of their money) they would be easier to entice into a “friendly” game of pool. We wanted our “marks” to think that we had plenty of money and not much sense so that their greed would get the better of them.

I brought back the paper and started thumbing through it to find some reason that would explain our presence.

“Here we go. There’s a big farm sale at the livestock market tomorrow and I’m sure we can get a great deal on a John Deer tractor. We can tell them that our crop just came in and we are looking to expand our production next year. They will think we’re growing pot anyway when we flash this wad of cash”.

This was always one of our favorite ploys. We would tell people that we were there for a certain reason, but in a way that if they didn't believe us they would jump to the conclusion that we were really there to pick up or deliver some drugs. If they were clever enough to figure this out it was perfect because then they would be on a mission to beat us out of our money before someone else did. Reverse psychology was nothing compared to what we were fixing to put in these poor peoples minds.

“What about the tags?”

“Yeah, I don’t think they’ll believe we drove 1000 miles to get a good deal on a tractor. Pull over at that hotel and I’ll “borrow” some for the night.”

Almost routinely once everyone knew that we wanted to gamble someone would go out and check out our car to see if we had out of state tags. We would sometimes go to a hotel and get one of the plates off a car, glue magnets to it and stick it on over our plates then we could park in plain sight of the front door of the place without worrying about spooking our potential customers.

After we were done we would return the plate to the car and everyone would be happy and if the car was gone before we returned at least they would have one of their plates (we would pick cars that had a front and back tag). We weren't “stealing anything”, just borrowing for a little while. We knew the owners would approve. Right?

We decided to split up and hit the bars and the pool room at the same time. We dropped Bill off at the pool room and Mike and I went to the first bar. Bill’s forte was to go to a pool room, get a game with the first guy that had any jewelry on and precede to lose every game for ten dollars a game.

This was called “laying down a lemon” and was like planting seeds to Bill. He knew that he didn't look like a pool player and took full advantage of it. What would usually happen is Mike and I would end up beating all the players and then they would all want to play Bill because they knew that he had lost earlier and was definitely a weak player. Bill would then refuse to play any of the players, but would match up a game with the guys that put the money up for the players.

The players would encourage their backers to play hoping that they would win and then give them another chance to play. That parade was soon rained on because despite looking like a linebacker, Bill was just a notch under a top road player. By the time he started playing we were usually big winner and the opponent would have his “nose open” and ready to “go off like a rocket”.
The only time this ever backfired on us is when someone jarred Bill’s drink and we just about had to knock him out to get him to stop playing and get him out of the place. “Jar” is a drug that someone can put in your drink that will put you in la la land and you will think that your playing like a world champion and will lose every game until you either run out of money or someone makes you quit. I have had this happen three times that I know of and it is no fun. I think it is used to put women in a euphoric state during labor or something funky like that.

All I know is, you can’t quit and you “think” you’re playing well. We never did this to anyone, even pool hustlers have a morals and ethics about how they operate. We were clean.

I liked traveling with Bill because it was so easy for him to get a game. He played the big, dumb guy routine so well that I would even start to believe it, even though I knew he was sharp as a tack. I remember one time we were hustling down in Florida and every night we would end up going to a late night club for after hours action.

This place had three bars in one, but the bathrooms were back by the pool tables and Bill would ask everyone that looked like they had money to play one game for a hundred and it was amazing how many people would take him up on it. That would never work for me because I looked like I might be a player, but Bill looked more like a lumberjack.

This trip was very profitable because I flew in after Bill had already won some pretty big money and shown his true playing speed. No one knew that we were together so I played Bill in front of everyone. The first night and lost $2800. , then quit and got drunk and started telling the “house detective” (the one that wants to be a big shot and tell everyone how smart he is) that I was down to make a “buy”, letting him jump to the conclusion that I was buying something very expensive and very illegal.

I came in the next night and the house detective had already told everybody in town that I was a big drug dealing sucker and everyone started asking me to play pool. I told them that I just wanted to play the big guy that I played last night. Just then Bill came in the door and we matched up again, but Bill spotted me the eight ball as a handicap and beat me out of another $4200.00, I quit and had some more drinks telling the house detective how upset I was because it looked like I was going to have to spend a few more days there. I also told him that I was looking at a new corvette that I was probably going to buy the next day to give to my girlfriend.

From that point on it was like shooting ducks out of a barrel. I had people calling me to make appointments to play and of course I knew exactly how everyone played. Bill disappeared for a week and I beat the area out of about thirty thousand in the next five days. They had never experienced anything like that and I heard that after we left they wouldn't play any strangers a game of pool for about six months.

One thing that we always did when we went to a new area was to beat the small towns first before moving into the bigger cities. Many times through this process we would become friends with one of the guys in a small town and talk him into “putting on a show” at one of the pool rooms in a big city.

Putting on a show was what I had done with Bill, where you play someone just so other people can see how bad you play. Most times you know the person that you are doing this with because if you don’t it is more like laying down a lemon. This was especially easy to do if the guy had been hustled by one of the big city players. They would get there rocks off pulling off a score with us because they loved being part of hustling the big city “smart guys”.

I even had a guy refuse to take his end, he said he had so much fun being involved that he should be paying us. We felt like we did our good deed for the day, making friends and influencing people was our job. Oh, yeah, and relieving them of the burden of money in their pocket. It makes them play better when they’re a little lighter in the "hip"......and our game was their teacher.

Keep it going CJ...please. Johnnyt