How quickly can you gauge a player's speed?

David Marcus said:
I'm interested to know how much time is needed for any of you to approximate a player's speed ? Do you need to see him/her in a gambling situation? Can you judge it just as well in a tournament match? Is it possible to do it simply by observing a short practice session ? How much observation time do you need to make your initial determination in each scenario or is it impossible to do without additional information?
I'll be curious to hear your opinions, thanks
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Dave, I'm not one to judge anyone's game, however I think Jay's assessment is what you are looking for.

Looks like the Green Room in Sanford. I remember the first time I was in there, I was surprised at how fast the cloth was. I play out of Union Station in Portland. I'll keep my eye out for you.
 
Back in the day when I was playing fairly high and it was not uncommon for road agents to take a shot at me as I always was ready to play

I found that the only way I could gage the speed was after Ikept adjusting every time I lost a few games over and over.Then sometime it took until I was bone dry and some rail bird walked over and told me that they thought I knew better than to play Vernon Elliot,or Craig Stevens or St Louie Louie or Norm Hitchcock or Arkansas Calvin or Mike Massey even when he played onehanded

These after the fact revelations always helped me to gage the speed after I was dry. Now if the question is"How do you gage the speed before losing my money?" That is a thing that eluded me for years,and i can't say that I ever figured it out

As a matter of fact,I have had the same trouble with Billy Incardona for several years now,the first time I played him some 25 years ago,he was nothing special at one pocket so I only got 10 to 5 and the break,He had never played me either but based on advice from the local pool deectives he gave me this huge spot. I thought I had the nuts ,but he actually had the best of it,so I was free stroking,thinking who cares if I win this game,the nuts will save me over the long haul

So I shot at my hole every chance and everything i shot went in or lucked something in or hid the cue ball accidently .After several games Billy paid off and mumbled something about a double steer to the detective little knowing that i was blind hog lucky

Well,the lesson is if Billy Incardone could not tell my true speed,who could?
 
Luther Lassiter said he needed an hour to tell if he could beat someone. At his level the mistakes are rare so you need a long enough time to see if they make three or four mistakes an hour. Lassiter looked horrible at the table and played his own notion of patterns. His gift was to not miss.
 
David Marcus said:
Alright then, you get 20 minutes and I'll give you all the facts. The following is a scheduled, planned practice session where the player is working on a couple of aspects of his game. No stalling, just focused practice.The game is 9-Ball against yourself, no BIH, no safeties, you are playing to runout in as few innings as possible.

http://youtu.be/vNZILBHPYO4
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Needs help on pattern play in my opinion. I watched one rack, not a great stroke. Needs to stay away from balls when running out find safer zones to move cue ball.
 
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Does he not blink for about 30 minutes to an hour while shooting the same shot(s) on a table over and over? Either hes a drug addict, or a good pool player drug addict :D

On a more serious note there are several things I look for but I don't want to spill the beans on all of them.

One I do notice is what do they watch/look at while at the bar, at the pool table, when walking? Obviously you can't totally stare them down the whole time but what are they looking at when they enter the area from start to go time. Are they looking at the guy running a rack? Are they looking at the guy who looks like he has $$? Are they looking at the cocky guy? Drunk guy? Where did they decide to start practicing/shooting? When I say look at I dont mean just looking at...I mean gauging their mark. Ok...thats enough for now. There are more things I look for, these are just a couple.
 
Very Observant

Allen Brown said:
He posts videos here at least once a month. I think he's been taking lessons and working on each thing he has learned in each video. He is also playing on a new table with a new breaking template. He may just be looking for a sucker to put some money on the line. Wanna be his huckleberry?:grin:
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Allen, I must say you are one of the more observant people on these forums. I have been working on my game with the help of you and other AZers. I take what EVERYONE says and try to use it to improve and it seems to be helping. Big thanks to each and everyone of you for your insight and comments. FYI, I don't gamble so I'm not stalling or hiding anything. My game is what it is, some days better than others.
The general consensus on ability when I began this experiment was a straight "C" and now it seems to be moving towards the "C+/B-" or higher category. I also do a lot of self evaluation by watching my own practice sessions as well. I strongly suggest it to anyone who is looking to improve. You might be amazed by what you see and how your recollection doesn't always correspond with what ACTUALLY happened.
Jay's evaluation was pretty much dead on. Indecisiveness and rhythm are things I'm constantly struggling with. Shutting my brain off and just playing by instinct and finding my rhythm are both constant battles for me.
Suggestions PLEASE.

Thank you to everyone.:thumbup:

Previous posts
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=348735
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=349538
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=351015&highlight=David+Marcus
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=351328&highlight=David+Marcus
 
No shortstop

Allen Brown said:
He has changed his playing style on almost every single video he has posted. I honestly think he is short stop speed.
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Nowhere close to shortstop speed. Interesting that you've seen a change in playing style. Can you please elaborate,...better? ....worse ? ...or just different?
 
You seem more focused in the last video. You cue ball control has gotten better, imo, too.
I had to add that you were choosing better patterns to play and keeping things more simple in your newest video.
 
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jay helfert said:
In my rating system a B player is the same as a shortstop.
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Your rating system sounds tough man ... good thing BCA doesn't agree with you.. lol

You have seen the best of 'em closely and no wonder it reflects in your analysis of this guys speed.
 
Dave:

Good eye, bank well, but please, lose that pre-shot routine. Also, people that put the chalk back in their pocket annoy me.

You don't use inside enough. It was the expected shot to get on the four ball in the first rack. You used it on the seven in the second rack, ended up on top of the eight ball, but you did get out. You used it again on the six in the third rack. Don't know where I would have tried to get, so I can't really say anything, but you almost banked your way out of it.
 
Just like Jay said........

If you play good enough they have to show some speed if they were laying down to catch up especially if you won't raise the bet.

Back when I played on the road I shot out of allot of traps but the best way was not to get in them in the beginning.

Some of the biggest scores I made though in my life were done shooting out of a trap. Was shooting pretty good already and after a day or 2 of playing fairly cheap I was ready to bet some cash.

CJ Wiley came through my home town when he was fairly young. Had a guy with blond hair with him. CJ called himself Butch. It wouldn't have made any difference if he would have said CJ Wiley because we are up in the middle of nowhere back then in regards to the pool world.

Jerry Brieseth was doing some teaching at a pool tournament at the Temple Lounge in Eau Claire, Wi. CJ comes in looking for a game. My friends wanted to put some money together and have Jerry play this guy. I told my friends they were stupid and were just going to lose their money. If they were going to have anyone play him it should have been me. I just got back from the road a few weeks before this. Jerry was teaching but I knew he wasn't playing very much at this time. In fact I don't even think he was playing anyone anymore at this time.

They had a dynamo table with one of those heavy red dot cue balls. it was about twice as heavy as the other balls.

I told my buddies I'd play this guy on my own money. They all gathered around and watched me put a rush on this guy. We were betting $40 a rack and I had him stuck about $400 to $500. CJ never got to shoot much.

Then the shit hit the fan. CJ jumped that heavy cue ball over the 9 ball to make the 2 ball and run out. He never did ask me to raise the bet because I don't think he knew what I was capable of at this time. I don't care who you are on the road you have to be kind of careful and up until then I hadn't missed a ball.

I never really shot bad but I had seen enough. CJ had me back to even soon and that was all I needed to see. There was no future in playing this guy and I quit.

I saved my buddies some money but I don't think jerry would have played anyway.

I talked to CJ about 2 years ago and he remembered his road trip through our town. I think he said the blond haired guys name was Rusty.

But just like Jay said, the better you play the less careful you had to be about who you played. They had to hit a pretty top gear to win back then and if they layed down and couldn't get there it could get pretty expensive for them for sure.

Busted many road players in Chippewa Falls wi when I had a bar/poolroom there and they just kept coming trying to get my pot of gold.

if they played too good, just quit. But if they couldn't get there, Boy did we have some fun............
 
deanoc said:
Back in the day when I was playing fairly high and it was not uncommon for road agents to take a shot at me as I always was ready to play

I found that the only way I could gage the speed was after Ikept adjusting every time I lost a few games over and over.Then sometime it took until I was bone dry and some rail bird walked over and told me that they thought I knew better than to play Vernon Elliot,or Craig Stevens or St Louie Louie or Norm Hitchcock or Arkansas Calvin or Mike Massey even when he played onehanded

These after the fact revelations always helped me to gage the speed after I was dry. Now if the question is"How do you gage the speed before losing my money?" That is a thing that eluded me for years,and i can't say that I ever figured it out

As a matter of fact,I have had the same trouble with Billy Incardona for several years now,the first time I played him some 25 years ago,he was nothing special at one pocket so I only got 10 to 5 and the break,He had never played me either but based on advice from the local pool deectives he gave me this huge spot. I thought I had the nuts ,but he actually had the best of it,so I was free stroking,thinking who cares if I win this game,the nuts will save me over the long haul

So I shot at my hole every chance and everything i shot went in or lucked something in or hid the cue ball accidently .After several games Billy paid off and mumbled something about a double steer to the detective little knowing that i was blind hog lucky

Well,the lesson is if Billy Incardone could not tell my true speed,who could?
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I like your honesty Dean. I had the same problem as you after I opened my first poolroom in Bakersfield in the 70's. I would play anyone who walked through the door and pretty soon I was in every road man's black book (Larry Lisciotti even told me that). I managed to get pummeled by Jimmy Marino, Billy Johnson, Swanee, Gabby, Cole, Keith and a few others before I started to wise up.

Even in my last poolroom here in L.A. I was playing money games almost every day.....and winning! I got a little big for my britches and one day Tony "T-Rex" Chohan offered me 8-4 and the break at One Pocket for 300 a game. I was sure I was stealing but 1,200 later I wasn't so sure anymore. :thumbup:
 
genomachino said:
If you play good enough they have to show some speed if they were laying down to catch up especially if you won't raise the bet.

Back when I played on the road I shot out of allot of traps but the best way was not to get in them in the beginning.

Some of the biggest scores I made though in my life were done shooting out of a trap. Was shooting pretty good already and after a day or 2 of playing fairly cheap I was ready to bet some cash.

CJ Wiley came through my home town when he was fairly young. Had a guy with blond hair with him. CJ called himself Butch. It wouldn't have made any difference if he would have said CJ Wiley because we are up in the middle of nowhere back then in regards to the pool world.

Jerry Brieseth was doing some teaching at a pool tournament at the Temple Lounge in Eau Claire, Wi. CJ comes in looking for a game. My friends wanted to put some money together and have Jerry play this guy. I told my friends they were stupid and were just going to lose their money. If they were going to have anyone play him it should have been me. I just got back from the road a few weeks before this. Jerry was teaching but I knew he wasn't playing very much at this time. In fact I don't even think he was playing anyone anymore at this time.

They had a dynamo table with one of those heavy red dot cue balls. it was about twice as heavy as the other balls.

I told my buddies I'd play this guy on my own money. They all gathered around and watched me put a rush on this guy. We were betting $40 a rack and I had him stuck about $400 to $500. CJ never got to shoot much.

Then the shit hit the fan. CJ jumped that heavy cue ball over the 9 ball to make the 2 ball and run out. He never did ask me to raise the bet because I don't think he knew what I was capable of at this time. I don't care who you are on the road you have to be kind of careful and up until then I hadn't missed a ball.

I never really shot bad but I had seen enough. CJ had me back to even soon and that was all I needed to see. There was no future in playing this guy and I quit.

I saved my buddies some money but I don't think jerry would have played anyway.

I talked to CJ about 2 years ago and he remembered his road trip through our town. I think he said the blond haired guys name was Rusty.

But just like Jay said, the better you play the less careful you had to be about who you played. They had to hit a pretty top gear to win back then and if they layed down and couldn't get there it could get pretty expensive for them for sure.

Busted many road players in Chippewa Falls wi when I had a bar/poolroom there and they just kept coming trying to get my pot of gold.

if they played too good, just quit. But if they couldn't get there, Boy did we have some fun............
Click to expand...

CJ was running with Rusty Brandemeyer back then when he was calling himself Butch. Rusty may have been the better player at that time, definitely at Banks and One Pocket. CJ hadn't hit his peak yet, that was to come maybe ten years later, when CJ took on the world (minus Parica and Buddy) at 9-Ball and made one score after another. Regardless of how anyone feels about CJ on the forum he is undoubtedly the best player who posts on here regularly. He was in the top five at one time in his life. Doubtful anyone else on here can say that.
 
David Marcus said:
Allen, I must say you are one of the more observant people on these forums. I have been working on my game with the help of you and other AZers. I take what EVERYONE says and try to use it to improve and it seems to be helping. Big thanks to each and everyone of you for your insight and comments. FYI, I don't gamble so I'm not stalling or hiding anything. My game is what it is, some days better than others.
The general consensus on ability when I began this experiment was a straight "C" and now it seems to be moving towards the "C+/B-" or higher category. I also do a lot of self evaluation by watching my own practice sessions as well. I strongly suggest it to anyone who is looking to improve. You might be amazed by what you see and how your recollection doesn't always correspond with what ACTUALLY happened.
Jay's evaluation was pretty much dead on. Indecisiveness and rhythm are things I'm constantly struggling with. Shutting my brain off and just playing by instinct and finding my rhythm are both constant battles for me.
Suggestions PLEASE.

Thank you to everyone.:thumbup:

Previous posts
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=348735
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=349538
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=351015&highlight=David+Marcus
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=351328&highlight=David+Marcus
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Just keep hitting balls David. There is no substitute for time on the table. When you play long sessions (especially against a decent opponent) you will notice small adjustments in your game along the way. These are the things that will make you a better player.

What's that thing they say about it taking 10,000 hours to master a game. Pretty apropos here!
 
Thanks for weighing in

jay helfert said:
Just keep hitting balls David. There is no substitute for time on the table. When you play long sessions (especially against a decent opponent) you will notice small adjustments in your game along the way. These are the things that will make you a better player.

What's that thing they say about it taking 10,000 hours to master a game. Pretty apropos here!
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Jay,
Thanks for weighing in. I very much value your opinion and your insight into the sport we love. My problem is that those 10,000 PLUS hours were logged from the late 70's thru the early 90's before I gave up the game for 15 years. These days, due to back, neck, shoulder and hip problems, long sessions top out at about 3-4 hours. I have been told by more than one person that speeding up my game would vastly improve it. Short of installing a shot clock in my head, do you have any suggestions for quickly getting me into and staying in a rhythm that would bring out my best game?
 
jay helfert said:
... What's that thing they say about it taking 10,000 hours to master a game. ...
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One thing that pool players seem to overlook is that the author of the original study was talking about elite performers who had 10,000 hours of coached, directed practice time.
 
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