How to Aim Pool Shots (HAPS) thread moved

ShootingArts said:
Dave,

Ever try to moderate a busy forum with a lot of controversy? I am the former owner(partner) and admin of a political forum. You ain't ever seen intense threads until you have a forum dedicated to politics. Because it was tightly moderated we could even talk about race and religion.

When I had time I moderated line by line in posts. When I was busier, I whacked a post at a time. When I was really pressed or it was like wading through a cesspool to find a few pearls whole threads were whacked. I whacked far more posts I agreed with than disagreed with and banned more than a few people I liked. Kept some jackasses because they did play by the rules. Kept posts and threads I didn't like too, I played by my rules.

Same rules apply to all. Kinda like this thread would be whacked now. You didn't move it back to the original subject of the thread, you moved it back to the subject of the thread that had already been moved once. Something like that on my forum and this thread would be gone. No explanation. Any question would be answered with read the ROE. I had about ten rules and they were kind of like the ten commandments. Didn't take a lawyer to figure them out and they weren't negotiable.

Hu
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Good post, Hu, and I agree. Dr. Dave keeps doing the "I agree, but-but-but my stuff is different..." back pedal. The rules for any forum are both static and dynamic. Static in that obvious forum offenses are spelled out ahead of time when the forum is created -- these are never changing. And dynamic in the respect that there are "learned" rules from bad behaviors / lightning-rod topics noticed as the forum progresses.

Any forum has its share of lightning-rod topics, and for AZB, that topic was and always is, Aiming. This topic has been a lightning-rod topic ever since the RSB days. It doesn't matter if the thread creator has good intentions -- nor if he "thinks" his aiming "topic" isn't the same as what he "thinks" was the root of all evil of past threads on the same topic. It's still Aiming, and to be fair to all (and especially Dr. Dave, because he was one of the central personalities behind the lightning bolts striking the Aiming lightning rod), all Aiming stuff gets moved into the Aiming Conversation subforum.

I don't like it, Dr. Dave obviously doesn't like it, many-many-many other people don't like it. I liken it to removing the ignition system from a car and setting it aside "because it causes flames." But those are the rules, the learned changes that had to be implemented to keep peace on this particular forum.

We can debate all day long of how "this should've happened" or "these troublemakers should've been banned rather than move a topic to its own subforum." It's a moot issue. And to be honest, since the topic of Aiming has been moved into its own subforum, it *is* a bit more peaceful around here, isn't it? (Yes, there are still a couple more lightning rod topics, but the topic of Aiming seemed to have its own event horizon around it -- sucking everyone into its turmoil.)

-Sean
 
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I for one am sorry that the thread was moved, but all you have to do is read the responses and you realize it could be no other way.
The people who are selling info , don't want the people giving it away free or cheap , to have air , let alone a voice.
I have said before that the time and effort you have invested into this is amazing and that I personally thank you for every idea you and Bob have written down.
 
book collector said:
I for one am sorry that the thread was moved, but all you have to do is read the responses and you realize it could be no other way.
The people who are selling info , don't want the people giving it away free or cheap , to have air , let alone a voice.
I have said before that the time and effort you have invested into this is amazing and that I personally thank you for every idea you and Bob have written down.
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This is not fair. Hal Houle gave away years of his time for free. Stan Shuffett has put a ton of lengthy videos on YouTube demonstrating and teaching as well as being available by telephone, chat and on the forum to help anyone who wanted to learn.

The bottom line is that Dave and Stan are both trying to help players get better. No one is trying to stop anyone from giving away information. Not that I have seen. I am sure that Dave's information is helpful, but if it's about aiming then it goes in the aiming section.

And not the CTE aiming section, the AIMING section.

If there had been no mocking then there wouldn't have been any arguments and thus no aiming section. But there is and so that's where AIMING threads go. As the old proverb goes, be careful what you wish for because you might get it.
 
shades of gray

sfleinen said:
Good post, Hu, and I agree. Dr. Dave keeps doing the "I agree, but-but-but my stuff is different..." back pedal. The rules for any forum are both static and dynamic. Static in that obvious forum offenses are spelled out ahead of time when the forum is created -- these are never changing. And dynamic in the respect that there are "learned" rules from bad behaviors / lightning-rod topics noticed as the forum progresses.

Any forum has its share of lightning-rod topics, and for AZB, that topic was and always is, Aiming. This topic has been a lightning-rod topic ever since the RSB days. It doesn't matter if the thread creator has good intentions -- nor if he "thinks" his aiming "topic" isn't the same as what he "thinks" was the root of all evil of past threads on the same topic. It's still Aiming, and to be fair to all (and especially Dr. Dave, because he was one of the central personalities behind the lightning bolts striking the Aiming lightning rod), all Aiming stuff gets moved into the Aiming Conversation subforum.

I don't like it, Dr. Dave obviously doesn't like it, many-many-many other people don't like it. I liken it to removing the ignition system from a car and setting it aside "because it causes flames." But those are the rules, the learned changes that had to be implemented to keep peace on this particular forum.

We can debate all day long of how "this should've happened" or "these troublemakers should've been banned rather than move a topic to its own subforum." It's a moot issue. And to be honest, since the topic of Aiming has been moved into its own subforum, it *is* a bit more peaceful around here, isn't it? (Yes, there are still a couple more lightning rod topics, but the topic of Aiming seemed to have its own event horizon around it -- sucking everyone into its turmoil.)

-Sean
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Sean,

Nobody thinks it is fair when the admin and mod's play shades of gray. "my post/thread wasn't as bad as his and mine got whacked and his stayed." Worst thing is the complainers are often right that some far worse threads are allowed to stay while milder threads are whacked. Forces any fair administrator or moderator to work in black and white only, no shades of gray. Perception varies with the individual and even with the mood of the moment.

I still think splintering forums is a bad idea for the viewers and the business but that has just been my experience from watching a bunch of forums. A few sites are strong enough to support high fragmentation, most aren't. Estimated cash value of this site has crashed after fragmentation and continues to fall.

Aiming threads on the main forum have to be tightly moderated. I think that would have been a better solution than moving a subject that should be of at least passing interest to all into a subforum but obviously not my call to make. Having been a mod of a handful of forums, usually an unlisted mod, I wouldn't be a moderator again for pay, much less as a volunteer! A no-win job much of the time.

Hu
 
dr_dave said:
You are correct, the HAPS DVDs are for sale. However, I don't think I am pushing that here. I don't even think I've mentioned it until you did ... thank you for the plug. :grin-square:

Have you watched the clips yet? They cover a lot of stuff often discussed on the Main Forum, and they are totally free. I thought AZB users on the Main Forum would be interested in seeing them. Apparently, some people have been and others have not. Regardless, nobody is forcing anybody to click on the video links or even open the thread.

Those past CTE "flame war" threads had little to do with "intelligent discussion." They were more about immaturity and pettiness (on both sides of the "debate"). Regardless, I don't think they needed to be moved from the Main Forum, but I can see why the AZB moderators would want to do this since they gave a bad "face" to AZB.

Personally, I don't think any threads should be moved or removed unless they clearly violate AZB policy. I'm fine with users being suspended or expelled permanently if they act immaturely or in a personally-hateful or offensive way. I also think it is fine to delete offensive or inappropriate posts. However, I don't think entire threads should be moved or removed if they are of interest to a large number of Main Forum participants. Again, if somebody isn't interested in a thread, they can just ignore it. And if a specific user really bugs them, they can block that user from their view.

Cheers,
Dave
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It certainly wasn't about any 'bad face" to AZB that the Aiming section was created. It was because of the flame wars causing headaches for the mods. If people could just stay civil then topics could stay in the main forum and run their course.

Think about it.

The only reason that CTE dvds exist now is because you and several others persisted in mocking and denigrating Stan and Hal.

Had you not done that then I am 100% certain that a CTE thread would have been less than 50 posts long with a few nerds discussing it amongst themselves. It would have all fizzled out.

But you and others created the animosity with the mocking and that led to arguments which led to more visibility and more people trying them and more proponents who then argued more when they were then mocked and called zealots and repeat.

So now you have to live with the situation you created.

How To Aim Pool Shots goes in the aiming forum. Good thing for you we aren't arguing so vehemently about other aspects or you'd have to promote in many more forums :-)
 
JB Cases said:
[...]
The bottom line is that Dave and Stan are both trying to help players get better. No one is trying to stop anyone from giving away information. Not that I have seen. I am sure that Dave's information is helpful, but if it's about aiming then it goes in the aiming section.

And not the CTE aiming section, the AIMING section.

If there had been no mocking then there wouldn't have been any arguments and thus no aiming section. But there is and so that's where AIMING threads go. As the old proverb goes, be careful what you wish for because you might get it.
Click to expand...

Just a thought (just putting it out there), but considering the bolded part above, I wonder if there's a "guilt by association" thing going on there? As in "why is my stuff being grouped in with those guys?" kind of thing?

-Sean <-- asking the difficult questions
 
 
JB Cases said:
This is not fair. Hal Houle gave away years of his time for free. Stan Shuffett has put a ton of lengthy videos on YouTube demonstrating and teaching as well as being available by telephone, chat and on the forum to help anyone who wanted to learn.

The bottom line is that Dave and Stan are both trying to help players get better. No one is trying to stop anyone from giving away information. Not that I have seen. I am sure that Dave's information is helpful, but if it's about aiming then it goes in the aiming section.

And not the CTE aiming section, the AIMING section.

If there had been no mocking then there wouldn't have been any arguments and thus no aiming section. But there is and so that's where AIMING threads go. As the old proverb goes, be careful what you wish for because you might get it.
Click to expand...

Not Fair ?
Then the first sentence you bring up Hal Houle as an example of who I am against???
A very sick man whom I
have never had the pleasure of meeting and have heard nothing but good things about from everyone who ever spoke about him.????????

Some of the weaker minded people here might then associate me with some kind of evil monster just based on that , they might never notice that this was just your way of trying to demean me by acting like I am against him and his legacy.?
I also never mentioned Stan, whom I have never met either , all I know of him I have seen on here like everyone else, you brought him into the conversation, as backup?
Now, who's not fair?
 
book collector said:
Not Fair ?
Then the first sentence you bring up Hal Houle as an example of who I am against???
A very sick man whom I
have never had the pleasure of meeting and have heard nothing but good things about from everyone who ever spoke about him.????????

Some of the weaker minded people here might then associate me with some kind of evil monster just based on that , they might never notice that this was just your way of trying to demean me by acting like I am against him and his legacy.?
I also never mentioned Stan, whom I have never met either , all I know of him I have seen on here like everyone else, you brought him into the conversation, as backup?
Now, who's not fair?
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didn't say you are against anyone. was only saying your comment were not fair.
 
TheThaiger said:
If I read the words lightning rod topic ever again I'm gonna scream.
Click to expand...

Is this better?

115JBxiHajk2kbpo-drr.png
 
sfleinen said:
Just a thought (just putting it out there), but considering the bolded part above, I wonder if there's a "guilt by association" thing going on there? As in "why is my stuff being grouped in with those guys?" kind of thing?

-Sean <-- asking the difficult questions
Click to expand...

I think Dave explicitly said, while again mocking CTE, that he feels his stuff on aiming does not belong in the same space with "mystical" methods.

I think the complete opposite. I think if you have a method that you think is better than xyz method then you would want it to be placed right next to xyz method so that it could be compared and contrasted and judged.

I know that if it's cases I would rather have my cases sitting next to a dozen brands for direct comparison. I think my work can hold it's own against anyone's because of the foundation that work is built on. So if I have the choice of consumers going to five far-apart places to do their case shopping or five stores side-by-side or even better the cases all sitting side by side I prefer the last one best.

I think anyone who believes in their product - be it free information, paid information, etc... should be not only be willing to have their product compared, they should offer it up for comparison.

P.S. to me it would have been better if Dave had not said anything about the thread being moved. He should have just discussed his information and carried on the conversation as if CTE does not exist. Then all the conversation in the thread would have been about the material presented.
 
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