My only concern would be the possibility of hitting the ball first but the more I think about it, the more I think this is a risk worth taking. Do whatever it takes to make the 8ball and give yourself a shot on the 9. The inside english should reverse off the second rail but even if it makes the 9 tougher, you at least have the good grace of a shot on the 9.
I feel that the easiesst way to make that ball is w/ left/ outside too- don't they call it 'natural' english?- but I think doing that here adds a potential scratch to the situation. I am staying above the side pockets here, shooting w/ a tad of L ) spin.
Neil said:
I know most people will disagree with my way, but it works good for me. I hit the cb about 1 tip below center, with LEFT, or outside english. and go the route shown. I know it makes the shot 'harder' to make. But I have practiced it enough that I have no problem with it. Shape becomes almost natural, and you don't have to hit it hard.
This is a common myth. Of course inside english doesn't "keep the ball on the rail" - this is common sense, because if inside english did throw the ball toward the rail, then the rail would throw it right back away from the rail, making the shot miss.
What's needed for down-the-rail shots is the same thing needed for any shot: the CB simply needs to hit the OB contact point that compensates for any contact-induced or spin-induced throw and drives the OB directly toward the pocket, exactly parallel with the rail - this is true whether there's inside, outside or no spin and whether the CB hits slightly rail first, ball first or simultaneously.
As I said in another post, the simplest way to aim and hit this shot is to simply ignore the rail and shoot the shot like any other, using whatever spin is needed for shape. If you have to overcut the shot to compensate for throw, the slightly rail-first hit won't make enough difference to matter - the CB will still be sinking straight into the cushion at contact and the shot will go as normal. (Those tricky rail-first shots that rebound straight across the table rely on the CB already rebounding as it hits the OB, and are hit significantly more rail-first than I'm talking about).
Lots of other players feel the easiest way is with inside spin (some even call this "rail-hugging english"). Still others feel the easiest way is with no sidespin. I think this shot is like any other shot and the rail only adds psychological difficulty. Players shoot it one way more than others so they get used to that and feel it's the "best" way.
Lots of other players feel the easiest way is with inside spin (some even call this "rail-hugging english"). Still others feel the easiest way is with no sidespin. I think this shot is like any other shot and the rail only adds psychological difficulty. Players shoot it one way more than others so they get used to that and feel it's the "best" way.
I think you're right - I do believe this can be cut flat (no english) rather easily and a lot of players get distracted by the rail being there.
However, I think you might not see the value in using inside english when a ball is on the rail. It's not just "rail hugging". It's providing a larger target. It is actually easier.
Balance is needed here. You can't completely forget about position play but you have to see the value in taking that game-winning shot. Make the 8, no matter what it takes.
I feel that the easiesst way to make that ball is w/ left/ outside too- don't they call it 'natural' english?- but I think doing that here adds a potential scratch to the situation. I am staying above the side pockets here, shooting w/ a tad of L ) spin.
This is close what to I'd do, but it's just a touch of spin to compensate for the forward roll of the cue ball. For me this is keeping it simple, safe, and easy. There's absolutely no need to bring the side pocket into play, especially on newer cloth.
Also, you can hit this shot with speed if you're more comfortable (bring the cue ball back across to where the 8-ball was for position on the 9ball).
I think you're right - I do believe this can be cut flat (no english) rather easily and a lot of players get distracted by the rail being there.
However, I think you might not see the value in using inside english when a ball is on the rail. It's not just "rail hugging". It's providing a larger target. It is actually easier.
Balance is needed here. You can't completely forget about position play but you have to see the value in taking that game-winning shot. Make the 8, no matter what it takes.
Jude,
Forget about shape. Forget about the nine ball.
I'm just wondering, do you or anyone else think it's easier to just make the eight ball using some combination of side spin than using NO side spin? Forget about making the 9 ball. Do you think it is easier to make this shot using some form of side spin?
Jude,
Forget about shape. Forget about the nine ball.
I'm just wondering, do you or anyone else think it's easier to just make the eight ball using some combination of side spin than using NO side spin? Forget about making the 9 ball. Do you think it is easier to make this shot using some form of side spin?
It's easier with inside, imo. Much harder with outside. I might shoot it three rails with inside on a wet table before I'd try and draw that ball with outside.
It's easier with inside, imo. Much harder with outside. I might shoot it three rails with inside on a wet table before I'd try and draw that ball with outside.
Well, to be clear, it's not "rail hugging" at all (you probably didn't mean to say it is) - if there's any value it's because of the larger target theory. I know the reasoning behind that, and I don't know if it's really true or not (I think there are serious questions). And if it is true I'm sure the target isn't much larger - in fact, I'm guessing it's so small a gain that it's a bad tradeoff: you're likely to start to favor that way of shooting the shot, which would probably cause your accuracy shooting it other ways to suffer, limiting your options.
I know most people will disagree with my way, but it works good for me. I hit the cb about 1 tip below center, with LEFT, or outside english. and go the route shown. I know it makes the shot 'harder' to make. But I have practiced it enough that I have no problem with it. Shape becomes almost natural, and you don't have to hit it hard.
I like Neils choice depending on the speed of the table. It's a routine shot in pool with maybe 1/2 click speed.
I may play the same shot with about a 2-3 click and go 3 or 4 rails under the 9 ball and play it in the opposite corner pocket, letting my stroke out, not to baby the shot. Also a routine shot in pool.
Cutting the 8 ball and laying up for a shot on the 9 is simple game play and probably a good percentage play. You're a player, pocketing the 9 ball should be routine. If you can't pocket balls with different strokes,speed and english required what good is position,MAKE THE BALL FIRST
Inside english is not a bad play but the 8 ball is very low and would probably require a lot of juice , not very easy from this angle.
I am not a fan of rail first from this angle, too many variables, especially the possible scratch in either side pocket, I would guess a very low percentage play.
If you practice all or many of the different opinions and options of shots and strokes mentioned in this thread and others like it you will up your game quite a bit. Including the rail first option
( CASE IN POINT ) tomorrow you may have the same shot on the 1 ball and the 2 ball is where the 9 is (all options are blocked except for one), if you have no confidence in what you are doing, indecision,confusion,etc sets in and you are sure to make a mistake.
Unknownpro said it best... it's a MUCH easier shot with inside.
I believe shooting the OB with no english requires much more precision and accuracy. It's simple... shoot that shot 20x with inside and with no english and record your score. It is what it is. Even if it's geometrically the same.... perceptually speaking, it's not.
I consciously shoot the shot to hit the rail first with inside (which is way easier than perceiving the appropriate contact point with no spin).
EDIT: I like Neil's shot depending on the table. The harder/tighter the shot, the more I like to cinch it with rail-first.... the easier the equipment, the more I like his shot.
I don't know if it's geometrically the same (I suspect it is, or near enough), but if it is and you let your perception of the shot narrow your options you're hurting your own game.
I don't know if it's geometrically the same (I suspect it is, or near enough), but if it is and you let your perception of the shot narrow your options you're hurting your own game.
I don't think I said to let your perception of the shot narrow your options. I think I'm saying to use your perception to your advantage (which helps your game). What you see in pool is almost never reality. Some people on this board will never make this shot with outside english because they simply can't see it.
Sometimes there are two different ways to see the same thing and one way looks like it can't miss-- and the other way looks impossible. All I'm saying use perception to your advantage.
One real quick additional point about perception - because I think it's important when discussing scenarios like this. If you ask 10 people how to play this shot, you'll get at least 5 answers. The answers people propose are ones they feel in their heart they can make more than not.
When someone says, "I like outside here"--- it's because it's their highest % shot to get out. Someone else said "Only a little low and inside" --- same thing.
I learned so much about perception from Joe Tucker I couldn't possibly put it in one post. The way we perceive shots is the way we perceive shots--- it's in our nature. I believe you can become self-aware of how you perceive certain things and use that to your advantage.
For example, you might perceive a certain shot (this one for instance) to NEVER go with outside with the way you sight the ball. Depending on your technique as a player, you might be able to shoot the shot in a way you perceive to be "wrong" --- and it's actually perfect and goes every time.
I know Neil is a great player... I would be interested in having him try this shot 10x using his method from both sides of the table and to see if his score changes--depending on the direction of the cut.
It's easier with inside, imo. Much harder with outside. I might shoot it three rails with inside on a wet table before I'd try and draw that ball with outside.
