How to Use Pivot Point Knowlege To Increase Error Margins

[BeiberLvr]

I'd like to see just one post of someone saying the pros are playing the game all wrong. I don't believe there is one outside of ones like yours above.

There isn't any.

Love his posts, but StraightPool has been on a run lately of very poor reading comprehension.

 

[Poolplaya9]

OH MY...KANYE!
Seriously? The ego of some people, it never seizes to amaze me. I may have said some things on this forum that were stupid and poorly worded. At least I never claimed be be able to make Darren Appleton a better player. I can tell you right now, even if you get the BEST, absolute best coach in the world right now, put a gun to his head and said: "Make this man a better player or you die!" that coaches life would be hanging by a thread! No coach would ever guarantee something like that, and even if you chalk that up to being modest, I don't think there is anyone who could reliably improve the game of a top 5 player every time. That's not how it works. Could he teach him something he doesn't know? Probably. Will that work better than what he is allready doing? Most likely not, but there is a chance, of course.

Nowhere did I say I would make Darren a better player, and certainly not substantially better as you insinuated. Nor did I say or insinuate that he or any other pro was playing the game all wrong. What I said was that there are things he could learn from me, although they would in fact likely lead to very slight improvements in his play. Colin had it right in his post when he said it would mostly be things like a few insights on particular shots, or educating about some advanced physics aspects that would help out with a particular shot that here and there. At his level he isn't going to get 20% better because of it, or even 2% probably. But any little minute bit helps and if it is free we should all be wanting to learn as much as we possibly can. I did see your subsequent apology and I appreciate it.

 

[Keith Jawahir]

When people are factually wrong I will often call them on it. I hate misinformation. Especially when the person doesn't even understand what they are trying to debate and are disparaging science, knowledge, and technical stuff in the process (which indicates they are the type who are ignorant by choice which I hate most of all). My nature is generally that I tend to tell it like it is.

As for your example, I fully understand that law and therefore it is a little easier to determine how likely it will be that knowing that law will benefit me based on how likely it is that I go to Alabama, how likely it is that I play dominoes, and how likely I am to play dominoes while in Alabama, etc. On the flip side, if you don't even fully understand a concept (which he didn't and I don't think you do either actually) then there is no way you can possibly know how much it could help you (although you can always be certain that the knowledge will never hurt you). And for that matter even when you fully understand a concept, sometimes the usefulness of it isn't fully evident and discovered until you start implementing it and experimenting with it.



You clearly do not fully understand what is being discussed--if you did you would realize that it can be useful knowledge. But like I said before, how would you know when you don't have that knowledge yet? Knowledge that you already have can always be not used if you don't deem it to be valuable but there is nothing you can do when the knowledge could have benefited you but you don't have it.

And if Darren Appleton had more of this kind of knowledge he would be a better player than he already is, zero doubt about that. And of course you shouldn't be trying to figure out and understand a concept such as pivot points and how they affect shots while you are down on the case 9 ball for the world championship win. You learn about it while away from the table and while at the table during your practice time and before long it doesn't require any more thought than aiming, or position play or anything else we do on every single shot. It just becomes routine or intuitive or even subconscious.

Actually, I do have some experience with BHE, and I watched Colin's video on it several years ago (among other things). I know more than I let on. I'm personally just sick of people who know everything and belittle others.

 

[Dan White]

Thanks.

It's not that downward force is needed to get swerve from a side hit but it is how the ball ultimately spins. One could hit above the equator with the appropriate downward force & the ball would come out spinning with an upright axis & not swerve

or

one could hit with a level cue (possible on larger tables) but below the equator & the ball would spin on a tilted axis & swerve given the appropriate speed of hit & time allow before hitting the OB.

Would you agree with that?

I'm not sure if I understand you completely. There is no combination of english and follow or draw that will cause swerve. It is only that 3rd axis that matters. If your cue is not level then there will be swerve. If you could manage somehow to shoot up (like elevate the cue ball on some chalk) with right english the cue ball would actually swerve to the left.

I'm not a physicist so I can't veer too far from what I've already posted, but that much I do know.

 

[ENGLISH!]

hmmm... I'll set up a fake account and discredit myself pronto

But seriously, I don't think it's a quick fix for most players, who tend to align poorly and swipe and bridge shift during delivery. Following my directions here could drive them nuts unless they happen upon accurate pre-alignment of the bridge V.

I've long held the view that 90+ percent of potting errors are mainly a result of poor pre-alignment, and not stroking. Unfortunatly, I've little to offer in regard to an easy means of accurate pre-alignment, but I think it can help if a player reduces the effects of stroking errors and hence start focusing on better pre-alignment via better bridge V placement.

Cheers,

Colin

To give you some credibility here in a way, I played golf with my son this summer in Fla. & he was having some trouble, he said with his swing. I'm the one that taught him since he was 5. Anyway we play a few holes & he is not hitting too well. I then stood behind him for a tee shot & did not say anything but saw that his alignment was off. After he hit the shot, I asked him where he was aligned & after he answered, I told him where he was actually aligned. At first he did not believe me so I asked him if he thought I was lying to him. Naturally he said no. Over the next few holes we got his alignment corrected. He shot 2 under on the back nine on a course that we did not know. He hit a tee shot to the wrong area that cost him at least one & probably two strokes. he could have shot 4 under.

If one's alignment is off, the subconscious will fight to make 'correcting adjustments' but may not be able to do sufficiently if the fault is too great. In golf one will hit more to the alignment line one time & then to the other side of the intended line the other. The subconscious is confused from the mixed signals of the alignment being one place but the conscious intention being somewhere else.

The subconscious is an amazing entity but sometimes it just needs a bit of help from some good non confusing info.

Cheers.

 

[ENGLISH!]

--------------------------

 

[Neil]

Actually, I do have some experience with BHE, and I watched Colin's video on it several years ago (among other things). I know more than I let on. I'm personally just sick of people who know everything and belittle others.

Oh, you mean like you have been doing this whole thread.

 

[Colin Colenso]

To give you some credibility here in a way, I played golf with my son this summer in Fla. & he was having some trouble, he said with his swing. I'm the one that taught him since he was 5. Anyway we play a few holes & he is not hitting too well. I then stood behind him for a tee shot & did not say anything but saw that his alignment was off. After he hit the shot, I asked him where he was aligned & after he answered, I told him where he was actually aligned. At first he did not believe me so I asked him if he thought I was lying to him. Naturally he said no. Over the next few holes we got his alignment corrected. He shot 2 under on the back nine on a course that we did not know. He hit a tee shot to the wrong area that cost him at least one & probably two strokes. he could have shot 4 under.

If one's alignment is off, the subconscious will fight to make 'correcting adjustments' but may not be able to do sufficiently if the fault is too great. In golf one will hit more to the alignment line one time & then to the other side of the intended line the other. The subconscious is confused from the mixed signals of the alignment being one place but the conscious intention being somewhere else.

The subconscious is an amazing entity but sometimes it just needs a bit of help from some good non confusing info.

Cheers.

You're right on the parallel with directional nap and grain on a golf green, regarding natural rolling balls. Thank god we don't need side english in that game. LOL

I recall reading somewhere sometime that you've coached golf. I've probably hit a couple of hundred thousand balls in my youth mainly and competed in pennant, so I get what you're saying.

Cheers,
Colin

 

[Poolplaya9]

AZbilliards forums, where the actual world champions are.

PJ is oozing knowledge from his every pore. Every word this world champion types for submission into the hallowed championship halls of the AZB forums is above reproach.....We're currently in the planning stages of a kickstarter to fund a monument where the words of all the great billiards champions of the AZBilliards forums will be forever immortalized into stone, and the drunk wannabes like Darren Appleton, Shane Van Boening will be able to read all of this glistening knowledge from one source, like drinking the nectar of life from mother earth's bosom.

Why practice when you can just come here and pretend to know more and play better than you actually do?

Actually, I do have some experience with BHE, and I watched Colin's video on it several years ago (among other things). I know more than I let on.

If you understood all that was being discussed from Colin and PJ in this thread (and apologies to others who weren't named but also contributed good stuff) then you would realize it was mostly factual and had use. But yet throughout the thread you have been belittling those (the irony huh) that are contributing the science and the technical stuff and insinuating that it is not correct and that if you aren't a world champion you don't have the most/best knowledge and couldn't possibly know more than a pro or know something that a pro doesn't. I got news for you. http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5284214&postcount=81 That is why I presume you don't have a full grasp of the subject because if you did you wouldn't be putting it and the contributors of it down. The information they and some others have provided has been thought provoking, factual, and useful.

I'm personally just sick of people who know everything and belittle others.

And I'm sick of misinformation. And I'm sick of people arguing against things that they don't even have a basic much less a full understanding of. This is directed to nobody in particular...when you are out to correct the world and set them straight you better make damn sure you are right and know what you are talking about or you should expect to be called on it. And all too often, maybe even the majority of the time now, people on here are just dead wrong especially on things that involve and are governed by science (and no this doesn't fit PJ like you seem to think, unless it is over in NPR where everything he says is wrong ).

 

[Colin Colenso]

And I'm sick of misinformation. And I'm sick of people arguing against things that they don't even have a basic much less a full understanding of. This is directed to nobody in particular...when you are out to correct the world and set them straight you better make damn sure you are right and know what you are talking about or you should expect to be called on it. And all too often, maybe even the majority of the time now, people on here are just dead wrong especially on things that involve and are governed by science (and no this doesn't fit PJ like you seem to think, unless it is over in NPR where everything he says is wrong ).

May I respond, kind of along these lines, regarding perspective on offering opinions.

If we expect admiration alone, we'll no doubt be disappointed, when offering what we may think are profoundly omniscient insights... or perhaps just good advice. We will soon enough get figuratively kicked in the teeth with facts, fair requests for provable clarification or perhaps just mockery.

With some familiarity, garnered over hard years of forum debates, my attitude is to chuck some thoughts out there and see where it goes, and in so doing, not only does it present an option for members to participate, it provides a way of learning to either correct one's ideas or improve at expressing them

PJ for example straightened me out early in this thread. I'd still be a fraction dumber without it.

The odd whine or mockery or ridiculous comment is a bit like the odd chilly breeze that occasionally distracts one from the enjoyment of a glorious spring day. It harms the poster more so than the reader, unless the reader feels a strong desire to dominate everyone's mind.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Would you agree that if the cue ball was struck off the vertical axis but exactly on the horizontal axis AND with a level cue that their would be no swerve?

Thanks in advance,
Rick

Again I'm drifting off topic, but this investigation is eating at my brain. LOL

If one could hit horizontally, above or below the horizontal line of the CB, with side english, the same effect that causes squirt will contribute a rather small 3rd axis component of spin to the CB.

One could play a lifetime and never adjust for this rather minute effect, but when applying BHE with high english, I've learned I need to adjust for it, as this slight masse' effect takes early when used with high english and can change the CB's path significantly. Hence, I avoid striking a CB with high english, albeit near to horizontall cueing, as much as possible.

Colin

 

[Dan White]

If one's alignment is off, the subconscious will fight to make 'correcting adjustments' but may not be able to do sufficiently if the fault is too great. In golf one will hit more to the alignment line one time & then to the other side of the intended line the other. The subconscious is confused from the mixed signals of the alignment being one place but the conscious intention being somewhere else.

The subconscious is an amazing entity but sometimes it just needs a bit of help from some good non confusing info.

Cheers.

This might be the statement of the year, IMO. I think you can get to a pretty high level of play with a misalignment, but you're never going to reach your full potential until you get everything straightened out. The problem is that "straight" very often doesn't feel like "straight" and just plain feels wrong. For me, that was what prevented me from reaching that straightness, until recently. I NEVER would have truly straightened things out without a lot of time and effort. I guess maybe some pro's find that perfect stroke more easily... I don't know. Great comment, English!

 

[philly]

One of the biggest factors that separates how good people are in most sports including pool is physical skill, which often overcomes superior knowledge. To think that the best performer has all the knowledge or even the most knowledge of any one person is dumb and easily disproved if you just stop and think about it for all of two seconds. To be a professional level player at almost any sport including pool you just have to have a good knowledge coupled with exceptional physical skill.

Tiger Woods doesn't laugh at his coaches who taught and still teach him, yet none were ever near as good as he was. Not even remotely close, but they know a lot more. Tiger just has superior physical skills that far outweigh their knowledge advantage. There are few if any professional football players who are more knowledgeable about the game than their coaches, but chances are the coach was never anywhere close to as good on the field as anyone on his team due to his lack of physical skills. Examples could literally be endless. Guarantee you there are things Darren could learn from me. Also guarantee you there are quite a few people who aren't anywhere close to being at the professional level of play but who are far more knowledgeable about pool than he is--some of whom post on this forum. I can also guarantee you that if he had their knowledge he would be an even better player.

As I said you are very wordy. Methinks thou thinks too much of thyself. Keep reading all of the instruction you can get your hands on and and don't forget videos. When you attain paralysis through analysis let us know. Don't forget to reach out to Appleton on facebook and ask him if he wouldn't mind a lesson from you.

 

[ENGLISH!]

You're right on the parallel with directional nap and grain on a golf green, regarding natural rolling balls. Thank god we don't need side english in that game. LOL

I recall reading somewhere sometime that you've coached golf. I've probably hit a couple of hundred thousand balls in my youth mainly and competed in pennant, so I get what you're saying.

Cheers,
Colin

Good Morning Here Colin,

Did you know that Chi Chi Rodrigez (spelling?) at times did hit many of hit putts with side spin. If I putt broke right he would line up straight & pull the putter to the left to spin the ball left to hold the straight line. I think he did this mostly on shorter putts but perhaps on longer one too. I tried it & it allows one to stroke more aggressively than having to pick the proper speed / 'falling' line. Athletes can be amazing creatures to the Average Joe.

Gooddey,

 

[ENGLISH!]

Again I'm drifting off topic, but this investigation is eating at my brain. LOL

If one could hit horizontally, above or below the horizontal line of the CB, with side english, the same effect that causes squirt will contribute a rather small 3rd axis component of spin to the CB.

One could play a lifetime and never adjust for this rather minute effect, but when applying BHE with high english, I've learned I need to adjust for it, as this slight masse' effect takes early when used with high english and can change the CB's path significantly. Hence, I avoid striking a CB with high english, albeit near to horizontall cueing, as much as possible.

Colin

Hi Colin,

Everyone plays differently. I hit many shots with high right or left english. I started doing that when I was 13. Richard Long, an Instructor that I like, had thought that such a strike did not have any squirt. I mentioned that it did but just less so in the exact horizontal direction. I don't think he was convinced until Dr. Dave proved it to him.

It might be good to point out for consideration that the squirt of the cue ball is through the center core of the ball. So... looking from behind the ball at the CB, if one hits at say 1:30 the squirt will actually be in the 7:30 direction. It will also not be on that 90* perception to the shot. I will be from the contact point through the center of gravity of the ball which is the core center of the ball. So it will have a slight forward component to it as well as will all squirts. So, for the high english shots the ball is being squirted into the table & the spin can grab sooner as it is not sliding as in a low struck ball. Now that is given that the speed of the shot allows that, given the coefficient of the friction. Clean slick balls in dry climates play differently than dirty balls in humid conditions.

That does make sense to you, right?

Too early for Cheers here unless one was out last night which I was not.

 

[ENGLISH!]

This might be the statement of the year, IMO. I think you can get to a pretty high level of play with a misalignment, but you're never going to reach your full potential until you get everything straightened out. The problem is that "straight" very often doesn't feel like "straight" and just plain feels wrong. For me, that was what prevented me from reaching that straightness, until recently. I NEVER would have truly straightened things out without a lot of time and effort. I guess maybe some pro's find that perfect stroke more easily... I don't know. Great comment, English!

Thanks Dan,

I rather recently, thanks to Gene Albrright, learned that for pool I am left eyed. That is to say that I see the straight line with my left eye.

Now that said, If I do the point & close one eye test I will come up right eye dominant & have been playing that way for more than 45 years. I am amazed at how well I played given that road block, but as I said the subconscious mind is an amazing entity.

So... if I'm shooting a rifle, I'm using my right eye unless I'm shooting it from the hip, then I am using my left eye.

I would suggest Gene's Perfect Aim to everyone even if just to confirm that they are using their eyes properly to see a straight line If so, fine. You know it & can be confident. If not, you will learn something beyond value. It's not an aiming system it is about seeing properly.

Thanks again Dan & Best Wishes,
Rick

PS I would suggest that you consider all the ways that swerve can happen if I were you.

 

[duckie]

When driving a car, what eye do you use or do you use them both?

Which eye do you use to make sure you are in the center of the lane?

When throwing a baseball, which eye is in line with the glove?

When shooting hoops, which eye is in line with the basket?

 

[Tony_in_MD]

We are talking pool here, no driving, no baseball, no basketball just pool.

This is Ames mister.

:wink:

When driving a car, what eye do you use or do you use them both?

Which eye do you use to make sure you are in the center of the lane?

When throwing a baseball, which eye is in line with the glove?

When shooting hoops, which eye is in line with the basket?

 

[Dan White]

I would suggest Gene's Perfect Aim to everyone even if just to confirm that they are using their eyes properly to see a straight line If so, fine. You know it & can be confident. If not, you will learn something beyond value. It's not an aiming system it is about seeing properly.

I had a phone consultation with Gene awhile back, but the line up I gained from speaking with him really wasn't the answer to straightening out the stroke. I actually arrived at the correct solution partly through video analysis and partly from Mark Wilson's book. In fact, I ended up with a head position opposite of what Gene had me doing. I don't say that to knock Gene, it's just that I'm coming to realize that one size doesn't always fit all. I think maybe it has to do with what the rest of the body is doing (foot position, angle of shoulders etc.). It isn't enough to have your eyes in a certain spot. If the body isn't set up right, your brain will still have to make real time corrections during the stroke.

As Vincent would say, "If everybody's doing it, there's a lot of guys doing it. There's a lot of guys doing it, but only one can be the best." Few of those guys is doing it with a straight stroke. Even Vincent, if you look at Youtube, doesn't have a straight stroke!

Regards,

 

[Patrick Johnson]

When driving a car, what eye do you use or do you use them both?

Which eye do you use to make sure you are in the center of the lane?

When throwing a baseball, which eye is in line with the glove?

When shooting hoops, which eye is in line with the basket?

Yeah, it doesn't matter when baking pies either.

But do you think it matters when sighting a rifle?

When using analogies, I try to choose one that's actually, you know, analogous.

pj
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