How would the women rank among the men...

[yobagua]

HAHAHAHHA! Buddha can you warn me ahead if you are going to post something like this! Like they do when they are about to post SPOILERS on a movie thread. I was sipping on some hot coffee and now it is all over my computer! Man that was perfect. This goat needs some help bad! Im still laughing!

Bernie,

I hope you're just someone who knows nothing about pool. If that were the case, you are forgiven.

But, if you are the seasoned player you claim to be, do yourself (and us) a favor: Call NY Presbyterian, and check yourself into the psych ward. Tell the doctor you're suffering from delusional, irrational thoughts.

Get better soon.

-Roger

 

[sjm]

one thing i am certain of. allison fisher in her prime 1998-1999, would have KILLED, not beaten, but KILLED any male pro repeatedly!, she would have destroyed bustamante and reyes, until they cried uncle. this is no joke, this is fact. no one male or female could have come close to allison, back in those golden years. today? well, i don't believe allison karen or jeanette, can beat the top pros, however, they would win, a race here and there, but for the most part, ching shun yang, nick van den berg, bustamante, would win. allison is not her old self, sadly, and yet, she's still #1, that just goes to show, how strong she is!

Silencer, yours may be the single most incredible post I've ever read in this forum, but I really admire your great enthusiasm about the level of Allison Fisher's pool. She really is something special, and has been for a long time. Rather than asking you to check into a psychiatric ward like some others have, though, I'd rather hit you with a little logic. Those that have followed women's pool for a long time, myself included, have often debated who the better nineball player was, Fisher or Balukas, and while all we can ever agree on is that it's too close to call, most of us feel Balukas was the more talented.

One difference between Allison Fisher and Jean Balukas, though, is that Jean Balukas dared to qualify and compete in men's world championship events. Jean's record against men gives us an important clue to where the best women of all time fit relative to the best in men's pool. Jean's match record against men suggests that, at her best, meaning in the 1980's, only about 20 or 30 men played better pool than she did. I suspect that had Fisher played during that era, she would have rated similarly to the same men. Today, however, the talent pool is deeper in men's pool, so about twice as many play above Fisher.

On another point, the player that can get Efren or Francisco to cry uncle has yet to be born. By the way, time to stop imagining things about VanDenBerg, whose major accomplishments could be written on the back of a postage stamp. He's a young, promising talent, with no credentials to be included in any discussion of the game's elite. Among today's stars, only Efren, Francisco, Earl, and Archer have the playing resumes to be considered the best by anybody.

Potential is nice, but in the end only sustained excellence makes you one of the elite. On the fringe of greatness is the puzzling Pagulayan, but his impressive record and undeniable excellence are tainted by his failure to capture the game's most prestigious titles. Still, Alex remains the most logical choice to be the next to be counted among the legends of the game.

 

[fxskater]

Silencer, yours may be the single most incredible post I've ever read in this forum, but I really admire your great enthusiasm about the level of Allison Fisher's pool. She really is something special, and has been for a long time. Rather than asking you to check into a psychiatric ward like some others have, though, I'd rather hit you with a little logic. Those that have followed women's pool for a long time, myself included, have often debated who the better nineball player was, Fisher or Balukas, and while all we can ever agree on is that it's too close to call, most of us feel Balukas was the more talented.

One difference between Allison Fisher and Jean Balukas, though, is that Jean Balukas dared to qualify and compete in men's world championship events. Jean's record against men gives us an important clue to where the best women of all time fit relative to the best in men's pool. Jean's match record against men suggests that, at her best, meaning in the 1980's, only about 20 or 30 men played better pool than she did. I suspect that had Fisher played during that era, she would have rated similarly to the same men. Today, however, the talent pool is deeper in men's pool, so about twice as many play above Fisher.

On another point, the player that can get Efren or Francisco to cry uncle has yet to be born. By the way, time to stop imagining things about VanDenBerg, whose major accomplishments could be written on the back of a postage stamp. He's a young, promising talent, with no credentials to be included in any discussion of the game's elite. Among today's stars, only Efren, Francisco, Earl, and Archer have the playing resumes to be considered the best by anybody.

Potential is nice, but in the end only sustained excellence makes you one of the elite. On the fringe of greatness is the puzzling Pagulayan, but his impressive record and undeniable excellence are tainted by his failure to capture the game's most prestigious titles. Still, Alex remains the most logical choice to be the next to be counted among the legends of the game.

Tap, Tap, Tap. I was gonna reply and remind you about Alex, but then i read the final paragraph. Great post!! When you break it down like that its hard to disagree with you.

 

[hemicudas]

Something stinks here Vagabond.

Howdy Jungle Dude,
Is it true that Jamie (corner pocket guy) offered 6 to allison and she did not want to play.I heard it thru garape wine.cheers
vagabond

Vagabond, you said Allison was in the top 15 players on earth, male of female. What did I miss here? Jungledude just ask you if you wanted to gamble some with a New Orleans local guy playing Allison even. Is there someone in NO that is in the top 15 players on earth that I don't know about? Surely, if Allison is in the top 15 she could beat a player that might not be in the top 200 players.

Is the money the problem? OK, I can see that. That Jungledude will sure bet it up. But damn, if I like a game I want to be gambling with a guy that has money.

So, I ask you again, is Allison in the top 15 players on earth or not? I don't know the answer. Do you still think so?....................$Bill

 

[Steve Ellis]

...
As for Allison Fisher beating ANY top 50 men in her prime (let alone busta, efren, earl)...........nevermind. I know you like her, and I like her as well, but please don't be delusional about her abilities on the pool table.

-Roger

I'll say an "amen" to that brother!

 

[vagabond]

Howdy Jungle Dude,
I heard thru grape wine that one time Jamie( corner pocket)offered 6 to Allison and she did not take the offer.Is it true? BTW Karen Corr can give last two to Jamie and will beat him black and blue.Cheers
vagabond

 

[hemicudas]

Now you're talking Vagabond!!!!!!

Howdy Jungle Dude,
I heard thru grape wine that one time Jamie( corner pocket)offered 6 to Allison and she did not take the offer.Is it true? BTW Karen Corr can give last two to Jamie and will beat him black and blue.Cheers
vagabond

That's it, Vagabond, tell Jungledude to post!!!! ACTION!!!!!!!! I like X, you like Y. Let's get to the post. I know Karen plays better for the cash than Allison. I like Allison and in tournaments she's great but for the REAL CHEESE, I like Karen. Got more heart.

Just gained more than a modicum of respect for you sir.........$Bill

 

[jungledude]

Jamie can't spot anyone and wouldn't try

Howdy Jungle Dude,
Is it true that Jamie (corner pocket guy) offered 6 to allison and she did not want to play.I heard it thru garape wine.cheers
vagabond

Vagabond, Jamie is a good friend of mine but he is basically a $100 a set player and would no doubt have a tough time beating Karen or Allison for the big bucks, but we are willing to at least try. Let me know what you want to do, as for Jamie offering Allison the six, I don't think Jamie ever met Allison or even has been in the same building with her. But we will gamble. please let us know if you are interested.

P.S. We'll take the last two from Karen but will only bet $7500 per set...

 

[prewarhero]

my two cents...

First of all, the earnings mean squat since the women one their earnings against other women, and vice versa for men. So this offers no level of comparison.
Second. Alison Fisher is a special player. While her ability at the table may not be able to make busta or reyes "say uncle", she does posses some skills that even a seasoned pro may not. She can come to table, after sitting and getting cold, and come up with the right shot and make it.
Her saftey play is smart and at most times flawless. Her focus and mental game are among the best ever, male or female. She is in a word, a champion. Karen is great to, but minus a great year for her and an off year for ALison (2002), Alison dominates the WPBA. Plain and simple.
Yes Bulukas did play against the men, beating the miz once (i think) and then lossing to him in a close match at the 87 vitale invite. I think Fisher would have very similar results.
As to a wager, I have some very good local players around here, and I would not stake them against fisher, and one of them has a stroke from god. But, She is a champion and while he is like a duck in water, he is not.
If you want to compare men v. women, lets take the two best.
Lets compare reyes to Fisher.
It all depends on what type of play.
A race to 5, no spot and I would have to say while the smart money is on reyes, it should be pretty close to even money.
Now, if you want to talk a race like "the color of money" 120. You are now talking about a 50 game difference.
However, you place someone like Helana or, Chen against a comparable male, like Nevel, the males would take the cake, the consistency and the abilty to string 5 or 6 racks together is just to lopsided.
BUt, like I said Fisher is a Champion.
Jordan

 

[hemicudas]

First of all, the earnings mean squat since the women one their earnings against other women, and vice versa for men. So this offers no level of comparison.
Second. Alison Fisher is a special player. While her ability at the table may not be able to make busta or reyes "say uncle", she does posses some skills that even a seasoned pro may not. She can come to table, after sitting and getting cold, and come up with the right shot and make it.
Her saftey play is smart and at most times flawless. Her focus and mental game are among the best ever, male or female. She is in a word, a champion. Karen is great to, but minus a great year for her and an off year for ALison (2002), Alison dominates the WPBA. Plain and simple.
Yes Bulukas did play against the men, beating the miz once (i think) and then lossing to him in a close match at the 87 vitale invite. I think Fisher would have very similar results.
As to a wager, I have some very good local players around here, and I would not stake them against fisher, and one of them has a stroke from god. But, She is a champion and while he is like a duck in water, he is not.
If you want to compare men v. women, lets take the two best.
Lets compare reyes to Fisher.
It all depends on what type of play.
A race to 5, no spot and I would have to say while the smart money is on reyes, it should be pretty close to even money.
Now, if you want to talk a race like "the color of money" 120. You are now talking about a 50 game difference.
However, you place someone like Helana or, Chen against a comparable male, like Nevel, the males would take the cake, the consistency and the abilty to string 5 or 6 racks together is just to lopsided.
BUt, like I said Fisher is a Champion.
Jordan

Prewarhero, do you know this Jamie in New Orleans? Do you think Karen can give him the last two? I know he's not a top player but he plays pretty damn good. I would pay good money just to see it. I've never seen Karen play in person. She looks like a machine on TV. Hell, I just like to watch big money games, lol. Sounds like this might come off. All it takes is 2 people with heart. Sounds like Vagabond and Jungledude got some.

 

[prewarhero]

I don't know jamie in New Orleans but if he is anything likme jesse bowman or Criag Rice from Iowa, they are real good speed for an amatures. But, my money would be on Karen. I just think they know how to win, and that might not seem like a lot, but it is.
case in point. Efren, why did it take him YEARS before he won is first major tourney here in america. He kept finishing second to sigel, strickland, varner and so on. Not because he wasn't as good as them, he just wasn't ready to win. He didn't know how here in the states.
There is no sport in the world, where the mental game is so controling then in pool. And, at that speed it comes down the the very very little things. Karen knows how to win, alison knows how to win, Does Jamie from New orleans? Jesse bowman can move the rock like no other (I have never played him though) but does he (outisde a state tournament)?
I don't really know so you can tell me.
Jordan

 

[yobagua]

"Her saftey play is smart and at most times flawless."

Prewarhero; are you comparing Allison's safety play to one of the greatest ball movers ever? I have seen Allisons safety play and it is good and you are hooked but compared to Efren she is a piker. Efren does not leave you just hooked but locked in jail! Hers is general while he is specific.

And about Efren taking a long time to become a winner. Dont forget he is not from the US. All immigrants must make an adjustment to weather, customs, diet, etc. I know Allison and Karen are immigrants as well but not from the Third World but from where English like us is there first language. Try living in the Phillipines and you will see how hard it is to make a living there.

These are just my personal observations and there is no mean spirit here. It is what I believe. Allison like Efren is unique and special but she is nowhere near Efren Reyes.

 

[Celtic]

My money would be on Bowman. Oh, and if Allison had walked into Sigel's world and tried to win tournaments she would not "know how to win". She would never win a major tournament in the time period when Sigel was king, or today for that matter. Does Bowman know how to win? He would dominate the womens tour, but he is not playing against the girls, he has to deal with the top men in the game and he and Allison both don't have what it takes at that level. So I would say yeah, he knows how to win just as much as Allison. I win tons of little local tournies, does that mean I know how to win? Only in the circle I play in, and Allison is no different, she knows how to win against the women.

 

[bud green]

Has Allison ever competed in any snooker events against men? I have to think that she might NEVER win a match against Stephen Hendry, Ronnie Sullivan,etc...

I think watching the ladies play on big pocketed tables with Sardo racked balls might be giving people the impression that they can play almost as good as men, but who is going to actually put up money for a long race against any top player?

They do seem to be improving and Jeannette Lee did great at DCC but these are short sets and some people have a hard time playing ladies- especially lovely ones like Lee. The top ladies would be a great match for most of the shortstops running around the country though- I don't know that Karen or Allison wouldn't have a good chance the likes of Bowman,etc... who play good but haven't broke through yet and lack the experience these ladies have acquired playing on ESPN for big dough.

 

[hemicudas]

How did Bowman get into this?

Vagabond said Karen could give Jamie in New Orleans the last two and spank his butt. Jungledede said bring it on but would only bet $7,500 per set against Karen.

What does Jamie's speed have to do with Jesse Bowman's? If Karen can beat Jesse or Jesse can beat Karen. What does that have to do with Karen giving Jamie the last two? Jesse Bowman is a tournament player. No, he is not near the top 15 players on earth but I am positive Jamie would need weight from Jesse. So again I ask, where is the relevance of injecting Jesse Bowman into this gambling propositioin?

You guys have stalled long enough. I'll drive to where ever you guys are going to play to see this. And, in the words of that great judge/referee, Mills Lane,,,,,,LET'S GET IT ON!!!!!!!!!

 

[accdealer]

The proof is in the pudding. Check out www.insidepool.com. Karen Corr is defeated by Santos Sambajon 15-8 in a 6000.00 winner take all race to 15.

I am not sexist, but the fact remains that for some reason, and we've talked about it a million times on here, the men simply play better than the women.

 

[Frank_Glenn]

The proof is in the pudding. Check out www.insidepool.com. Karen Corr is defeated by Santos Sambajon 15-8 in a 6000.00 winner take all race to 15.

I am not sexist, but the fact remains that for some reason, and we've talked about it a million times on here, the men simply play better than the women.

I don't think so. I think the men gamble better than the women, because they start younger and and are taken seriously from the start. Women as a rule do not grow up gambling. I know there are exceptions, but I said as a rule. Tournament play and gambling are very different. If you lose twice in the tournament you're out. If you lose twice gambling, we can doulble up and try again, and again, and again... They both take heart, but it is a different kind for each. Some are good at one and not the other, some are good at both. Give the women another 10 years to catch up and we may know, but for now, they are just starting to come on the radar screen, IMO. YMMV

 

[hemicudas]

What can Santos spot Jamie?

The proof is in the pudding. Check out www.insidepool.com. Karen Corr is defeated by Santos Sambajon 15-8 in a 6000.00 winner take all race to 15.

I am not sexist, but the fact remains that for some reason, and we've talked about it a million times on here, the men simply play better than the women.

Good point accdealer. But, what do you think Santos can spot Jamie? Believe me accdealer, nothing personal in this at all but you guys are missing the point. Santos "IS" a top 15 player.

The question here is. How far down the list is Karen Corr and how far down the list is Jamie Farrell?

Santos won, what did you say, $6,000 winner take all? Hell, Jungledude doesn't like the game with Karen and is willing to bet $7,500 per set. Am I the only one here that can see $7,500 is MORE than $6,000 AND Karen would be playing a guy MUCH below Santos' speed.

If you guys can't see that this is a "TRUE GAMBLING" proposition, then there is no hope that anyone on this board has a lick of gamble.

I GIVE UP ON YOU, HEARTLESS, BLIND, NO GAMBLING, NITS.

 

[Cardinal_Syn]

Silencer, yours may be the single most incredible post I've ever read in this forum, but I really admire your great enthusiasm about the level of Allison Fisher's pool. She really is something special, and has been for a long time. Rather than asking you to check into a psychiatric ward like some others have, though, I'd rather hit you with a little logic. Those that have followed women's pool for a long time, myself included, have often debated who the better nineball player was, Fisher or Balukas, and while all we can ever agree on is that it's too close to call, most of us feel Balukas was the more talented.

One difference between Allison Fisher and Jean Balukas, though, is that Jean Balukas dared to qualify and compete in men's world championship events. Jean's record against men gives us an important clue to where the best women of all time fit relative to the best in men's pool. Jean's match record against men suggests that, at her best, meaning in the 1980's, only about 20 or 30 men played better pool than she did. I suspect that had Fisher played during that era, she would have rated similarly to the same men. Today, however, the talent pool is deeper in men's pool, so about twice as many play above Fisher.

On another point, the player that can get Efren or Francisco to cry uncle has yet to be born. By the way, time to stop imagining things about VanDenBerg, whose major accomplishments could be written on the back of a postage stamp. He's a young, promising talent, with no credentials to be included in any discussion of the game's elite. Among today's stars, only Efren, Francisco, Earl, and Archer have the playing resumes to be considered the best by anybody.

Potential is nice, but in the end only sustained excellence makes you one of the elite. On the fringe of greatness is the puzzling Pagulayan, but his impressive record and undeniable excellence are tainted by his failure to capture the game's most prestigious titles. Still, Alex remains the most logical choice to be the next to be counted among the legends of the game.

well said, also i would like to add...what is the point in comparing womans money list winnings against the mens. So Korr/Allison has the most in womens, but that just shows you there's really no competition there. But in mens there's soo many talented players now the they still manage to win "alot" of money.

 

[Rickw]

I don't see why women cannot be just as good if not better than men when it comes to playing pool. There is no strength factor for women to have to deal with. As a matter of fact, women may be able to develop a better touch or feel to the game, who knows?
The problem that women do have, imo, is that there are much fewer of them playing seriously than the men. If you go into just about any good-sized pool hall, you'll see a handful of good male players playing the game seriously, but how many women do you see doing the same?
As for the difference between Allison and Karen, I think Allison is more consistent and less emotional. I was watching Karen and Jeanette playing on TV yesterday and Karen looked perplexed and just couldn't get into the game and she was missing some easy shots and making fundamental errors. Everyone misses once in a while, especially the easy shots because you take them for granted, but you don't see that happen to Allison much. When Allison loses, it's not because she lost the match as much as it is that the other player won the match.
I don't think Allison wants or feels the need to gamble with anyone. She seems to be doing just fine on the TV tournaments. Why would she want to risk that by gambling with some no-name player?