Here's one thread about it. Unfortunately the video isn't there anymore, but you get the idea.kobyp said:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=34901&highlight=earl+foul+charlie
How would you rule in this situation?
- Thread starter kobyp
- Start date
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=34901&highlight=earl+foul+charlie
In my opinion once the scratch on the eight was commited the game was over. I feel that there should not be a ruling that would allow this game to continue. Like a pinball game, when you "tilt", that round is over. Start the next game. This is unlike other fouls that would allow the game to continue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by av84fun
IMHO, the rack ENDED when the 8 ball dropped.
3.8 Losing the Rack
The shooter loses if he
(a) fouls when pocketing the eight ball;
(b) pockets the eight ball before his group is cleared;
(c) pockets the eight ball in an uncalled pocket; or
(d) drives the eight ball off the table.
These do not apply to the break shot. (See 3.3 Break Shot.)
According to (b) pocketing the 8 before the player's group is cleared is not referred to as a "foul" that is subject to being extinguished by a subsequent shot.
Rather, it says that the rack is LOST by the early pocketing of the 8 ball. Any subsequent shots would be meaningless.
Regards,
Jim
Yeah, that's pretty much the reasoning I had in mind when I first made the post. I think that if the rack is lost and over in the example I gave, then it is probably also lost and over in the original scenario given in this thread.
What I mean is, by the same reasoning, when the shooter scratched the cue ball while shooting the 8, the game was lost and over. In BCA rules, of course, it would just be ball-in-hand, but in the rule set they were using, I think the rack was done at that point.
I guess the only thing that would make it trickier in the example I gave would be that it might be hard to determine who knocked the 8-ball in if no one had actually seen it happen. That was why I think maybe Hang-the-9's ruling could be a fair one in the example I gave.
__________________
The above post is JMHO unless otherwise noted.
You know...I think you're right and that my earlier take was wrong about the dropped 8 being extinquished by subsequent play.
According to the rule I quoted above, the game was over when the 8 dropped and was not a "foul" that can be remedied by a penalty such as BIH.
My bad.
Regards,
Jim
Originally Posted by av84fun
IMHO, the rack ENDED when the 8 ball dropped.
3.8 Losing the Rack
The shooter loses if he
(a) fouls when pocketing the eight ball;
(b) pockets the eight ball before his group is cleared;
(c) pockets the eight ball in an uncalled pocket; or
(d) drives the eight ball off the table.
These do not apply to the break shot. (See 3.3 Break Shot.)
According to (b) pocketing the 8 before the player's group is cleared is not referred to as a "foul" that is subject to being extinguished by a subsequent shot.
Rather, it says that the rack is LOST by the early pocketing of the 8 ball. Any subsequent shots would be meaningless.
Regards,
Jim
Yeah, that's pretty much the reasoning I had in mind when I first made the post. I think that if the rack is lost and over in the example I gave, then it is probably also lost and over in the original scenario given in this thread.
What I mean is, by the same reasoning, when the shooter scratched the cue ball while shooting the 8, the game was lost and over. In BCA rules, of course, it would just be ball-in-hand, but in the rule set they were using, I think the rack was done at that point.
I guess the only thing that would make it trickier in the example I gave would be that it might be hard to determine who knocked the 8-ball in if no one had actually seen it happen. That was why I think maybe Hang-the-9's ruling could be a fair one in the example I gave.
__________________
The above post is JMHO unless otherwise noted.
You know...I think you're right and that my earlier take was wrong about the dropped 8 being extinquished by subsequent play.
According to the rule I quoted above, the game was over when the 8 dropped and was not a "foul" that can be remedied by a penalty such as BIH.
My bad.
Regards,
Jim
GoTulane
Shizzle-rific
Don't let the turkeys get you down!!
Yes, your player should have told the opponent that the scratch on the 8 ball was a loss, and give him the game he had won on the scratch. So what, it's a game. Was it hill-hill? - would that make you act differently? It shouldn't, because it was a loss no matter if it was the first game or the last game. Your partner scratched on the 8 ball and lost. I have won many games, and lost many games, but I always let my opponent know what happens, since I am fairly knowledgeable of the rules of many formats of amateur league play. It isn't fun winning a game like that, and it isn't fun losing a game like that for either player - BUT IT IS WHAT IT IS!!! A GAME!!!
So the guy wasn't paying attention and that makes everything alright??
NO, it just means that you are a bigger person to understand what matters in life.
I deal with people in league all the time that never seem to pay attention, and do not take playing pool as seriously as I do, even league play. But I never get angry at a loss, because in the end it is a game, and hopefully I learn something about how to improve to play better the next time. I only have one night out a week to play pool, and I want to enjoy it to the fullest. I try not to let the ADD (attention deficit disorder)players get me down. Some people use league just to socialize and pool is secondary - that is great for them. I know what I get out of league, and that's why I play. When it stops being fun, I will quit. Just do not use the other guy's issues and attitude to determine how YOU WILL ACT. Act accordingly to your values, and you will have a great time.
Just one man's opinion who needs to find more time to play the game, or teach his 4 year old how to play very soon and get him a fake ID.
Anybody looking for a player who concentrates on the game, keeps score of other matches, helps coach other players, and isn't that terrible of a shot? Not every one is like you, but let us all try to keep the standards going to promote those type of people. I enjoy it, no matter what the other turkeys are doing around the table.
Michael
Yes, your player should have told the opponent that the scratch on the 8 ball was a loss, and give him the game he had won on the scratch. So what, it's a game. Was it hill-hill? - would that make you act differently? It shouldn't, because it was a loss no matter if it was the first game or the last game. Your partner scratched on the 8 ball and lost. I have won many games, and lost many games, but I always let my opponent know what happens, since I am fairly knowledgeable of the rules of many formats of amateur league play. It isn't fun winning a game like that, and it isn't fun losing a game like that for either player - BUT IT IS WHAT IT IS!!! A GAME!!!
So the guy wasn't paying attention and that makes everything alright??
NO, it just means that you are a bigger person to understand what matters in life.
I deal with people in league all the time that never seem to pay attention, and do not take playing pool as seriously as I do, even league play. But I never get angry at a loss, because in the end it is a game, and hopefully I learn something about how to improve to play better the next time. I only have one night out a week to play pool, and I want to enjoy it to the fullest. I try not to let the ADD (attention deficit disorder)players get me down. Some people use league just to socialize and pool is secondary - that is great for them. I know what I get out of league, and that's why I play. When it stops being fun, I will quit. Just do not use the other guy's issues and attitude to determine how YOU WILL ACT. Act accordingly to your values, and you will have a great time.
Just one man's opinion who needs to find more time to play the game, or teach his 4 year old how to play very soon and get him a fake ID.
Anybody looking for a player who concentrates on the game, keeps score of other matches, helps coach other players, and isn't that terrible of a shot? Not every one is like you, but let us all try to keep the standards going to promote those type of people. I enjoy it, no matter what the other turkeys are doing around the table.
Michael
av84fun said:
Yeah, I think you're right. I also think Dabarbr is right, in that the scratch in the original post should have also been a loss of game (by VNEA rules); once a game is lost, it's done and over, and there's really no way to resurrect it.
I think the only exception would be when it cannot be determined who lost the game, like in the case of a mysteriously missing 8-ball that could have dropped innings ago. In that case, a re-rack seems fair to me.
It ain't rocket surgery
Pretending that the other guy is responsible for catching you in a foul is dishonest and it promotes dishonesty. "The rules are the rules" is no justification for it - the rules are why you should call your own fouls.
Games have a social purpose: to teach fair play and morality. Pool is the only game I know of in which dishonest behavior is actually encouraged so widely - and we wonder why it has a bad name.
pj
chgo
Pretending that the other guy is responsible for catching you in a foul is dishonest and it promotes dishonesty. "The rules are the rules" is no justification for it - the rules are why you should call your own fouls.
Games have a social purpose: to teach fair play and morality. Pool is the only game I know of in which dishonest behavior is actually encouraged so widely - and we wonder why it has a bad name.
pj
chgo
Well...the real question is....How do you feel about the win? Does it make you feel like you earned a victory? (Other than just "getting over" on this person that apparantly you don't like)
Somehow I get the impression that people that cheat to win feel like it makes them a good pool player or something......
What amazes (and confuses) me even more is when really good pool players are the ones doing the cheating.
Somehow I get the impression that people that cheat to win feel like it makes them a good pool player or something......
What amazes (and confuses) me even more is when really good pool players are the ones doing the cheating.
BRKNRUN said:Well...the real question is....How do you feel about the win? Does it make you feel like you earned a victory? (Other than just "getting over" on this person that apparantly you don't like)
Somehow I get the impression that people that cheat to win feel like it makes them a good pool player or something......
What amazes (and confuses) me even more is when really good pool players are the ones doing the cheating.
To be honest with you, it doesn't bother me one bit. It came down to the league director's decision, and we were fine with whatever he decided.
Whenever I foul I always call it and when I scratch on the 8 I always end the game if it is supposed to be a loss and I expect my opponent to do the same. I also retrieve the CB on a scratch and hand it to the opponent. There are many games that I lost because of a foul that my opponent didn't notice and I could have gotten away with.
Some of my past team mates told me that I was stupid to do that. I quit playing on those teams. I don't need to win by being deceitful.
According to your reasoning you could keep on shooting when you make a foul if the other team doesn't speak up. You could also keep on shooting even though you didn't pocket a ball if the other player didn't get to the table fast enough to prevent you from shooting again.
I don't like players standing over me looking for fouls and I don't do that to the others.
I believe that the game deserves respect.
Some of my past team mates told me that I was stupid to do that. I quit playing on those teams. I don't need to win by being deceitful.
According to your reasoning you could keep on shooting when you make a foul if the other team doesn't speak up. You could also keep on shooting even though you didn't pocket a ball if the other player didn't get to the table fast enough to prevent you from shooting again.
I don't like players standing over me looking for fouls and I don't do that to the others.
I believe that the game deserves respect.
Cuebacca said:I agree, no point in throwing a tantrum over it. He should at least feel happy that he'll probably be a lot more observant in the future.
I don't really like how my post here came out. Writing the vulgar things, etc., was definitely a bad idea, but I can understand why he'd be upset; he kind of got screwed even if he should have been paying more attention.
you know, I posted this up here to get peoples opinion on the ruling.
You might think I'm scum b/c of the way I play, but I know for sure that I'm not the only one. So criticize me all you want, I understand what you're saying but around my town you have to play like everyone else plays.
I still don't consider how you consider this cheating. Morally incorrect is probably an accurate description. And I don't play this way all the time, but I do believe it is up to the opponent to call the foul.
If it were the other way around, I know the other guy wouldn't tell me that he fouled. That's like running a red light, and then calling the cops to write you a ticket b/c they didn't see you do it.
You might think I'm scum b/c of the way I play, but I know for sure that I'm not the only one. So criticize me all you want, I understand what you're saying but around my town you have to play like everyone else plays.
I still don't consider how you consider this cheating. Morally incorrect is probably an accurate description. And I don't play this way all the time, but I do believe it is up to the opponent to call the foul.
If it were the other way around, I know the other guy wouldn't tell me that he fouled. That's like running a red light, and then calling the cops to write you a ticket b/c they didn't see you do it.
I don't think you are scum and I don't think anyone on here has said that.kobyp said:
I don't agree with the way you handled it and I also would never sacrifice my integrity because other people around me do. I am my own man just as you are. You just choose to do things differently. It is a good thing everyone in your town doesn't jump off bridges or you would be swimming I guess.
BVal
kobyp said:
I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not judging you, man. That could very well be the way the other guys are playing, so I can understand what you're saying there.
Just consider the options and decide which way you feel is right. If you decide that it is better with people calling their own fouls, you could be the one who elevates the game and starts a new trend in your league.
Jude Rosenstock said:
As I stated in an earlier exchange with cuebacca, on further reflection (and reading the rules) I concluded that the game was over when the 8 ball dropped and therefore, continuing play that cancels any prior foul didn't apply.
But the general premise is whether a player is obligated to call a foul on himself. There is no RULE requiring that and it is an indication of an inadequacy in the rules themselves that there is debate on that point.
If the authors of the rules felt that players should call fouls on themselves, they should have written a rule to that effect and frankly, I think it is hypocritical to complain about ANY behavior not prohibited by the rules and attack the "morality" of a player in the process.
Does anyone think that football/baseball/basketball/hockey players etc. raise their hands and admit to a ref that they had commiteed a foul that had not been called by the ref?
It is utterly utopian to impose that standard on pool players.
Fix the rules and leave the morality judgments to preachers and philosophers.
Bottom line, when the OP's partner scratched on the 8 the rack was over and the ref made a horrible call to the contrary.
Regards,
Jim
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The rules are entirely adequate for matches with a referee present, just like the rules of football/basketball etc. For a model of good rules for situations without a referee present, a better model is golf. Some of you golfers might be able to describe exactly what the rules are for calling fouls on yourself (or whatever is parallel) in that sport.av84fun said:
longhair said:
But this thread shows that the rules are not entirely adequate. I conclude that the game was over when the scratch on the 8 occurred but others, including the ref, think otherwise. I can't think of ANY situation in football, for example, where there would be any doubt that a given behavior was a foul or not. The CALLS themselves can be wrong but that is human error not doubt about what the rules provide.
There is no RULE in the USGA rules obligating a player to call a penalty on himself. There is a comment in the Guidelines preamble to the rules, quoted below, that suggests that players should know the rules and abide by them.
But the Guidelines also make it clear that there is no IN-GAME penalty for ignoring the guidelines. Only repeated violations of the Guidelines could lead to disciplinary action after the match...not during it.
The Spirit of the Game
Unlike many sports, golf is played, for the most part, without the supervision of a referee or umpire. The game relies on the integrity of the individual to show consideration for other players and to abide by the Rules. All players should conduct themselves in a disciplined manner, demonstrating courtesy and sportsmanship at all times, irrespective of how competitive they maybe.
Conclusion; Penalties for Breach
If players follow the guidelines in this Section, it will make the game more enjoyable for everyone.
If a player consistently disregards these guidelines during a round or over a period of time to the detriment of others, it is recommended that the Committee consider taking appropriate disciplinary action against the offending player. Such action may, for example, include prohibiting play for a limited time on the course or in a certain number of competitions. This is considered to be justifiable in terms of protecting the interest of the majority of golfers who whish to play in accordance with these guidelines.
And in major, televised pro golf, there are officials at almost every hole and intense TV coverage so many self-called infractions were obvious to the other player, the caddies and the world for that matter.
If anyone thinks that in regional golf tours...college matches etc. that every player has called every foul on himself when, for example, a scholarship or tour card hangs in the balance...then I've got some oceanfront property in Arizona for sale!
(-:
Jim
av84fun said:
I must say I find this a rather incredible rule. Does this apply to all infractions, or just those committed while shooting the 8 ball? It seems to me that this rule encourages unsportsmanlike behavior. Suppose my opponent's view is blocked when I miss the 8 and scratch, so I quickly pull up the cueball and put it on the table. If my opponent did not see what happened and so does not call a foul is there no foul?
I've always understood the rule in 8-ball to be that the game is over once the 8 is pocketed, but not before.