Absolutely, any time the CB is struck even a coyote hair to the left or right of vertical center, technically it has to be called english, which doesn't necessarily equate to any spin.
See, look ... That's my TOI kitty.
I devulged TOI
- Thread starter 3andstop
- Start date
Absolutely, any time the CB is struck even a coyote hair to the left or right of vertical center, technically it has to be called english, which doesn't necessarily equate to any spin.
See, look ... That's my TOI kitty.
I'd still like to know how anyone hits the cb off-center, and defies physics by not spinning the cb. And, how TOI is supposed to negate CIS if the cb isn't spinning even a little.
Banks
Banned
I'd still like to know how anyone hits the cb off-center, and defies physics by not spinning the cb. And, how TOI is supposed to negate CIS if the cb isn't spinning even a little.
I'll give you the same answers I'm always given:
Because he says so.
You just have to believe.
He can play better than you.
You're being a hater.
He doesn't have to prove he's right, you have to prove he's wrong.
If you miss with TOI, it was a stroke issue.
Did I cover them all?
I'd still like to know how anyone hits the cb off-center, and defies physics by not spinning the cb. And, how TOI is supposed to negate CIS if the cb isn't spinning even a little.
I commend your logic and grasp of reality.
However, you obviously have not seen the NEW definition of insanity.
"Attempting to interject logic, a fact, or connection to reality into a discussion of TOI."
Dale(Who wants TOI designated to be an Aiming System)
I'd still like to know how anyone hits the cb off-center, and defies physics by not spinning the cb. And, how TOI is supposed to negate CIS if the cb isn't spinning even a little.
Neil, you are certainly the captain of picking nits. Now, this TOI stuff is more (IMO) a corrective / insurance measure to aid repair to a less than perfect stroke.
BTW, the flaws in a stroke that tend to add a TOUOI ( thats "a touch of unwanted outside english) to long nearly straight shots would be corrected by moving the tip over favoring ever so slightly inside english side.
Picture this, an imaginary vertical line the width of a hair (about .14 mm, splitting the CB in half. Now, another line the same width running vertically up and down on your cue tip.
When you contact the CB with both lines touching full on each other, that is contact on the perfect vertical center axis.
Now, imagine moving that line on your cue tip ( remember it is the width of a hair) so that the right edge of that line touches the left edge of the imaginary line on the CB. (that's about .07mm) Do you still consider that hit center ball? How much "spin" do you figure to get on a long shot?
Point being anything off true vertical center is technically english, but it doesn't have to spin the CB.
Next question, do you really think that when you personally hit the CB on the vertical center you are dead nuts on ... line to line? Not even .0005mm off? I doubt it.
In fact, even a touch of draw can help prevent a touch of unwanted outside english on a long shot from lasting long enough to effect the OB. Not only because of the unnatural friction created from the 11 to 5 or 1 to 7 spin that may be created and wants to die off, but also because there isn't as much width lower on the CB to realize the same amount of spin as can be created by being off on the horizontal axis.
So, the conscious thought to add a TOI will do little more than help prevent TOUOI and would not result in spinning the CB. Spinning is spinning, this technique is not spinning.
It is barley measurable in my mind and one that after using goes on without any conscious effort and corrects unwanted outside english automatically. Again, more a corrective technique for overcoming inadvertent outside english that will turn the OB off course.
Besides, I don't really care ... I just want my 4 ... I mean 5 bucks, cause I mentioned it first regardless if it's a bunch of shit. :yes::shrug::killingme::yeah:
lawyers all gathered together as we speak talking over the proposed $4 settlement
It's advanced to apply english without applying spin.....this is the part of TOI that must be experienced.
I have my lawyers all gathered together as we speak talking over the proposed $4 settlement. At $200 an hour I hope they come to a decision pretty quick.
'The TOI Clock is the Teacher'
It's advanced to apply english without applying spin.....this is the part of TOI that must be experienced.
I have my lawyers all gathered together as we speak talking over the proposed $4 settlement. At $200 an hour I hope they come to a decision pretty quick.
'The TOI Clock is the Teacher'
that's Toiludicrous indeed.
You can't "aim" with the Touch of Inside....now that's Toiludicrous indeed. :groucho:
You can't "aim" with the Touch of Inside....now that's Toiludicrous indeed. :groucho:
It's advanced to apply english without applying spin.....this is the part of TOI that must be experienced.
I have my lawyers all gathered together as we speak talking over the proposed $4 settlement. At $200 an hour I hope they come to a decision pretty quick.
"english", by definition is sidespin.
TOI is an Aiming System because it also purports to give one the ability to pocket
balls while lacking adequate judgement and/or precision of cueing.
My desire - if classified as I request - all these 'discussions' could be moved to the
'Aiming Conversations' section. Most def a step in the right direction.
Dale(who thinks a touch of center works just fine)
English without spin is called telling the truth.....something politicians try to avoid.
It's advanced to apply english without applying spin.....this is the part of TOI that must be experienced.
I have my lawyers all gathered together as we speak talking over the proposed $4 settlement. At $200 an hour I hope they come to a decision pretty quick.
Its 5 dollars... I get confused too when talking big bucks.
It does, but not if you hold the cue like you're going to stab a straight-handled shovel into a dirt mound.
-Sean <-- get ready for the "hammer stroke" pitches
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If CJ owes, he will pay.
JoeyA
Thanks for the reassurance Joey! Man I hope my neighbor doesn't put the bite on too hard.
As to why T.O.I practitioners don't call it "english." They call it "side." .......
Take a basketball. Place it on the tip of your index finger and hold it there with your other hand. Now real fast, take that other hand off the top of the ball, slap it's side and put some horizontal rotation on the ball. If the horizontal rotation is fast enough, the ball will stay on the top of your finger. We'll call the horizontal rotation "spin" in this case. Aw heck; let's call it "English."
Now keep that ball on the tip of your finger. The horizontal rotation will obviously begin to slow as time passes. At some point, the speed of the rotation will slow to a degree where the finger loses it's ability to balance the ball and, hence; the ball falls off the finger.
The ball does not fall off the finger because the ball loses ALL horizontal rotation. The ball falls off while there is still some horizontal rotation. We won't call this extremely slow horizontal rotation "spin," or "English." We'll call it "side."
So let's talk pool. When applying horizontal rotation to the cue ball, where is the dividing line between "spin - English" and "side?" If after the cue ball is struck, it's ensuing horizontal rotation is of such a speed that a drastic difference in trajectory results after contact with the object ball as opposed to the trajectory after a center ball hit, then we'll call that "spin - english."
If after the cue ball is struck, it's ensuing horizontal rotation is of such a slow speed that it's trajectory after contact with the object ball is only subtly different from that of a center ball strike, we'll refer to that horizontal rotation as "side"
While a ball struck with a " touch of inside" trajects, after contact with the object ball, differently from a ball struck in the center, it does not, after making contact with the object ball, traject similiarly to a ball struck with "english."
A ball struck with a proper "touch of inside" appears to float to the side. This is why practitioners of T.O.I don't call it "center" and don't call it "english." They call it "side."
Take a basketball. Place it on the tip of your index finger and hold it there with your other hand. Now real fast, take that other hand off the top of the ball, slap it's side and put some horizontal rotation on the ball. If the horizontal rotation is fast enough, the ball will stay on the top of your finger. We'll call the horizontal rotation "spin" in this case. Aw heck; let's call it "English."
Now keep that ball on the tip of your finger. The horizontal rotation will obviously begin to slow as time passes. At some point, the speed of the rotation will slow to a degree where the finger loses it's ability to balance the ball and, hence; the ball falls off the finger.
The ball does not fall off the finger because the ball loses ALL horizontal rotation. The ball falls off while there is still some horizontal rotation. We won't call this extremely slow horizontal rotation "spin," or "English." We'll call it "side."
So let's talk pool. When applying horizontal rotation to the cue ball, where is the dividing line between "spin - English" and "side?" If after the cue ball is struck, it's ensuing horizontal rotation is of such a speed that a drastic difference in trajectory results after contact with the object ball as opposed to the trajectory after a center ball hit, then we'll call that "spin - english."
If after the cue ball is struck, it's ensuing horizontal rotation is of such a slow speed that it's trajectory after contact with the object ball is only subtly different from that of a center ball strike, we'll refer to that horizontal rotation as "side"
While a ball struck with a " touch of inside" trajects, after contact with the object ball, differently from a ball struck in the center, it does not, after making contact with the object ball, traject similiarly to a ball struck with "english."
A ball struck with a proper "touch of inside" appears to float to the side. This is why practitioners of T.O.I don't call it "center" and don't call it "english." They call it "side."
Banks
Banned
You can call it "bananas" for all it's worth, it's still english. The difference is that it's struck in such a way as to have a particular action upon contact. No way, no how, doesn't matter what name is stuck to it, is it not english.
Still amazes me that hitting a ball with english at just a particular speed, is easier than just putting the ball in the hole. Same goes with flipping your stick around and finding a dozen different contact points.
Bump that.
So advanced to apply english without spin that the rest of the world doesn't even know it can happen, including physicists, astrologists and rocket surgeons. Can I say I drove the car if the wheels don't move?
You could have saved yourself a lot of typing by just saying "TOI practitioners make up their own physics".
Banks
Banned
You can call hitting a cue ball off of center english if you'd like. The real fact of the matter is that almost every shot of an average player is not completely dead center, so there must be english applied to each shot. Probably every pro player hits closer to dead center, but not on every shot they consider to be a center ball hit.
The amount of side spin is not as critical unless jacked up from 9 feet away, when you hit the cue ball very close to center. The shot line may be slightly off, but the ball will probably pot.
When I hit a ball with TOI, my tip may not hit the right spot. This will change the deflection of the cue ball, but I should still be able to hit the target. What I really want to do to maintain control of the cue ball has more to do with the speed of my stroke. Unless you've played with a TOI long enough, you won't experience what I'm saying.
I not only aim to a specific point/side of the cue ball with TOI, I use the speed and angle of attack to control the revolutions the cue ball turns before it strikes the object ball. Too many turns and I get a different position and cut angle on the object ball. Too few and I get too much CIT(cut induced throw) from the stunning effect of the cue ball. That is the "touch" of TOI and it takes quite a while to understand this.
Because I can control the spin, I can contact the object ball and have a dead cue ball when it hits the rail, or I can create an angle out of nothing and send the cue ball moving around the table. With the correct stroke, the cue ball may barely spin 1 turn before it hits the object ball. I don't worry about definitions when I do this. I worry just about doing it.
Best,
Mike
The amount of side spin is not as critical unless jacked up from 9 feet away, when you hit the cue ball very close to center. The shot line may be slightly off, but the ball will probably pot.
When I hit a ball with TOI, my tip may not hit the right spot. This will change the deflection of the cue ball, but I should still be able to hit the target. What I really want to do to maintain control of the cue ball has more to do with the speed of my stroke. Unless you've played with a TOI long enough, you won't experience what I'm saying.
I not only aim to a specific point/side of the cue ball with TOI, I use the speed and angle of attack to control the revolutions the cue ball turns before it strikes the object ball. Too many turns and I get a different position and cut angle on the object ball. Too few and I get too much CIT(cut induced throw) from the stunning effect of the cue ball. That is the "touch" of TOI and it takes quite a while to understand this.
Because I can control the spin, I can contact the object ball and have a dead cue ball when it hits the rail, or I can create an angle out of nothing and send the cue ball moving around the table. With the correct stroke, the cue ball may barely spin 1 turn before it hits the object ball. I don't worry about definitions when I do this. I worry just about doing it.
Best,
Mike
I do recall saying that a ball struck with a " touch of inside" does have horizontal rotation on it, so I'm not denying any fundamental laws of physics. As Mikjary says, "You can call hitting a ball off center English if you'd like."
If a ball is hit with any type of horizontal rotation on it, if you want to call it english, call it english. What I'm saying is that C.J. Wiley has CHOSEN not to call horizontal rotation "spin or "english" when the rotation is as slow as the rotation on the basketball when it falls off your finger. He refers to horizontal rotation as spin - english only when the spin is so fast that it creates a blur when observed. I don't want to put words in his mouth. I've never heard him state it quite that way. That's just my perception of his reasoning.
If my perception is right, he's only trying to point out the distinction between extremely slow horizontal rotation and and horizontal rotation that looks like a blur because many posters believe that every time horizontal rotation is applied it should look like a blur. It shouldn't look like a blur if only a touch of it is applied.
So go ahead and call it english if you want. I'm just tired of all these posts that pop up whenever T.O.I. is discussed that start out with,"Hey, C.J - When are you going to start calling it English?" No one's right and no one's wrong in this debate. I've never heard him deny that horizontal rotation is applied on a T.O.I shot. He has chosen not to call horizontal rotation "spin" or "english" for the sake of clarity. Shots that apply horizontal rotation at extremely slow speeds are employed in much different ways and produce much different results than shots that apply extremely fast horizontal rotation. So he calls fast horizontal rotation "spin" or "english," and he calls extremely slow horizontal rotation,"side."Those of us who have learned from his writings and DVD's have followed that reasoning; and if truth be known, it took me a while to stop calling it "english."
I have nothing against those who don't see any benefit in T.O.I. as a ball pocketing method. What I don't understand is the posters who disrupt discussions of T.O.I. with this "Is it Enlglish or isn't it English," nonsense and who don't have the patience enough to try to understand the reasoning behind the semantics.
If a ball is hit with any type of horizontal rotation on it, if you want to call it english, call it english. What I'm saying is that C.J. Wiley has CHOSEN not to call horizontal rotation "spin or "english" when the rotation is as slow as the rotation on the basketball when it falls off your finger. He refers to horizontal rotation as spin - english only when the spin is so fast that it creates a blur when observed. I don't want to put words in his mouth. I've never heard him state it quite that way. That's just my perception of his reasoning.
If my perception is right, he's only trying to point out the distinction between extremely slow horizontal rotation and and horizontal rotation that looks like a blur because many posters believe that every time horizontal rotation is applied it should look like a blur. It shouldn't look like a blur if only a touch of it is applied.
So go ahead and call it english if you want. I'm just tired of all these posts that pop up whenever T.O.I. is discussed that start out with,"Hey, C.J - When are you going to start calling it English?" No one's right and no one's wrong in this debate. I've never heard him deny that horizontal rotation is applied on a T.O.I shot. He has chosen not to call horizontal rotation "spin" or "english" for the sake of clarity. Shots that apply horizontal rotation at extremely slow speeds are employed in much different ways and produce much different results than shots that apply extremely fast horizontal rotation. So he calls fast horizontal rotation "spin" or "english," and he calls extremely slow horizontal rotation,"side."Those of us who have learned from his writings and DVD's have followed that reasoning; and if truth be known, it took me a while to stop calling it "english."
I have nothing against those who don't see any benefit in T.O.I. as a ball pocketing method. What I don't understand is the posters who disrupt discussions of T.O.I. with this "Is it Enlglish or isn't it English," nonsense and who don't have the patience enough to try to understand the reasoning behind the semantics.