I did some testing on the glues we build with.

Graciocues

Graciocues

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If you have any similar tests please post.

I have wanted to do this for a long time and the results surprised me. It's hard to say if these results are accurate but they did show me what further tests are needed. I was surprised how brittle slow epoxy was.

I changed where I put the glue on each piece to get better results. The first Maple test was accomplished by throwing the test piece at the ground. The second test were mounted in a vice and impacted with a hammer.

Test 1:
Maple end grain and thrown to the ground.

1. Superglue glue broke with medium impact.
2. 15 minute epoxy broke second with medium impact.
3. 5 minute epoxy broke third and took several hard impacts to accomplish.


Test 2:
Maple end grain hammer test.

1. Gorilla glue failed with a light blow.
2. 30 minute epoxy failed with light blow.
3. 5 minute epoxy failed with meduim blow.
4. Titebond III failed with hard blow.

Titebond III was the winner of this test.


Test 3:
Cocobolo end grain hammer test. After the first 2 tests I felt the hammer test was more accurate.


1. 30 minute Epoxy failed easily with light blow.
2. 5 minute Epoxy failed with a medium blow.
3. Titebond original (red label) failed with medium blow.
4. Superglue failed with several medium blows.
5. Titebond III (Green label) failed with several hard blows.

Results are listed in order of worst to first. (1=worst)


This is a good start for future testing. My next test will be with Phenolic.

Titebond III was the strongest with the tests I did.
 

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comparison

Graciocues said:
If you have any similar tests please post.

I have wanted to do this for a long time and the results surprised me. It's hard to say if these results are accurate but they did show me what further tests are needed. I was surprised how brittle slow epoxy was.

I changed where I put the glue on each piece to get better results. The first Maple test was accomplished by throwing the test piece at the ground. The second test were mounted in a vice and impacted with a hammer.

Test 1:
Maple end grain and thrown to the ground.

1. Superglue glue broke with medium impact.
2. 15 minute epoxy broke second with medium impact.
3. 5 minute epoxy broke third and took several hard impacts to accomplish.


Test 2:
Maple end grain hammer test.

1. Gorilla glue failed with a light blow.
2. 30 minute epoxy failed with light blow.
3. 5 minute epoxy failed with meduim blow.
4. Titebond III failed with hard blow.

Titebond III was the winner of this test.


Test 3:
Cocobolo end grain hammer test. After the first 2 tests I felt the hammer test was more accurate.


1. 30 minute Epoxy failed easily with light blow.
2. 5 minute Epoxy failed with a medium blow.
3. Titebond original (red label) failed with medium blow.
4. Superglue failed with several medium blows.
5. Titebond III (Green label) failed with several hard blows.

Results are listed in order of worst to first. (1=worst)


This is a good start for future testing. My next test will be with Phenolic.

Titebond III was the strongest with the tests I did.
Click to expand...

I think this is a great idea. I wonder if we could compare wood too.
I have problems buying wood and not knowing what is easier to work with and is balanceable etc. Like a list of woods and a critique of each.
thanks, Bill
 
I'm not a cue maker, but have an interest in cue making. I also have some quality assurance/engineering background so I thought I'd chime in a little. If you can standardize the amount of the impact, then it can become measureable. Kind of like when Meucci did their deflection tests and created a device to standardize the application of stroke. Performing several more samples can result in an average that would be a more accurate result. The more the samples, the more the accuracy of the average. Testing before hand is a lot better than real world results, but costs in materials and labor aren't always feasible.

When the breaks occurred between the two pieces where the glue lost its abhession, was it a clean break at the glue only or could you see wood separation still attached to the glue of the piece detached? If glue only, then definitely failure at the glue. If wood clearly as the separated medium, then wood strength issue.

I understand that the different sections of the cue might have different abhesion strength. Such as, what about the type of glue used for the joint pin? Tests could be conducted using a torque wrench to measure strength until it comes loose from the wood or something breaks. etc etc... Thread pitch, drilled glue relief, type of joint pin material, wood type, etc etc I'm sure all affect the results as well.

Kudo's to you sir! Looking forward to seeing more!
 
Graciocues said:
If you have any similar tests please post.

I have wanted to do this for a long time and the results surprised me. It's hard to say if these results are accurate but they did show me what further tests are needed. I was surprised how brittle slow epoxy was.

I changed where I put the glue on each piece to get better results. The first Maple test was accomplished by throwing the test piece at the ground. The second test were mounted in a vice and impacted with a hammer.

Test 1:
Maple end grain and thrown to the ground.

1. Superglue glue broke with medium impact.
2. 15 minute epoxy broke second with medium impact.
3. 5 minute epoxy broke third and took several hard impacts to accomplish.


Test 2:
Maple end grain hammer test.

1. Gorilla glue failed with a light blow.
2. 30 minute epoxy failed with light blow.
3. 5 minute epoxy failed with meduim blow.
4. Titebond III failed with hard blow.

Titebond III was the winner of this test.


Test 3:
Cocobolo end grain hammer test. After the first 2 tests I felt the hammer test was more accurate.


1. 30 minute Epoxy failed easily with light blow.
2. 5 minute Epoxy failed with a medium blow.
3. Titebond original (red label) failed with medium blow.
4. Superglue failed with several medium blows.
5. Titebond III (Green label) failed with several hard blows.

Results are listed in order of worst to first. (1=worst)


This is a good start for future testing. My next test will be with Phenolic.

Titebond III was the strongest with the tests I did.
Click to expand...

I believe these tests just completed added very little knowledge that wasn't already known by most if not all wood workers but just reinforced such knowledge. It's been known for years and years that end grain should never be glued together as the glue will be wicked away before it can dry and attain strength. It is probably for this reason that one of the weakest (5-min epoxy) faired the best as it dried before being gone. The thing is that no where on a cue is the would glued on end grain except partially at the A-joint and that is the reason for a buzz ring so as to help in keeping a dry joint at bay and causing a buzz if it does fail.

Next time try the experiments using face or side grain and with other materials that are combined such as end grain and phenolic as that comes up often. Also pins into wood, metal joints onto wood, metal rings and phenolic an so forth. It is great that someone is making tests instead of just following hype and tradition but the time involved for these tests should be directed toward the techniques and procedures that we cue makers use.

Dick
 
nice experiments.:thumbup: thanks for sharing....
after you glued the wood, did you take days before you start the test?
So we can assure that the epoxy or the glue reach their maximun strength.


thanks,
Al
 
An interesting test for the fast drying glues. Just based on those glues mentioned, I would have added Titebond II and Titebond extends to cover that particular family. The first thing I say when someone new would ask me about the glues I use is. If speed is a factor, stop now, I like slow. I did similar test years ago with West system, 205, 206, 207 and 209, then did the test again with the 403 and 404 powders added to the mix.
 
tightbond111

thank you for the effort and sharing the results. for all wood to wood i use the tightbond, and love the results.

chuck
 
i usually core my cues with elmers ultimate which is basically the same as gorilla glue. funny you posted this test bc i jusdt cored a cuue using titebond 3. i was wondering how it would hold up so this test gives me alittle more confidence.
 
testing

I appreciate your efforts to begin testing and sharing results. While many questions come up afterward, it is an attempt to quantify results. We all know that hindsight is 20:20. As a scientist, one realizes that the best experiments performed to answer a question are the ones that generate more questions than they answer. When your experimental juices get flowing you can solve problems you didn't intend to solve in the first place. Experimental information has great value.

Thanks again.
Tom Gedris, Triple Cross Cues:cool:
 
Michael Webb said:
An interesting test for the fast drying glues. Just based on those glues mentioned, I would have added Titebond II and Titebond extends to cover that particular family. The first thing I say when someone new would ask me about the glues I use is. If speed is a factor, stop now, I like slow. I did similar test years ago with West system, 205, 206, 207 and 209, then did the test again with the 403 and 404 powders added to the mix.
Click to expand...
Don't just tease us. Give us the results. :)
 
cueman said:
Don't just tease us. Give us the results. :)
Click to expand...

Please!


I tested flat end grain to see what stick best in that area.
Most builder use tenons but there is still a flat surface glued no matter what construction technique used. That was the area I was interested in most.
I feel most glues will hold a tenon and never have a problem. Especially if it's threaded.

Some glues stick better to certain woods. It's not all about the glue.

I controlled this test the best I could with the little time I had. Next time I want to incorporate a torque wrench into the test so I have numbers to compare.
 
Graciocues said:
Please!


I tested flat end grain to see what stick best in that area.
Most builder use tenons but there is still a flat surface glued no matter what construction technique used. That was the area I was interested in most.
I feel most glues will hold a tenon and never have a problem. Especially if it's threaded.

Some glues stick better to certain woods. It's not all about the glue.

I controlled this test the best I could with the little time I had. Next time I want to incorporate a torque wrench into the test so I have numbers to compare.
Click to expand...

I believe you missed my point. My criticism was that few knowledgeable cue makers glue two pieces of end grain together, at any time. With the use of a tenon, threaded or not, the joint may not come apart but you still can have problems in this area as the parts that are end grain can become unglued creating a buzz. There is almost always a more solid piece in between so that you don't have both sides of the joint drawing off the glue making for a dry joint. Most use a buzz ring or something similar so that only one side is weeping the glue away until the glue dries. I believe that if you had put a phenolic ring in between your two pieces of end grain you would have found that the slower setting glues would have been superior in strength to the faster setting epoxy which faired better in your tests as it had set up before more of it could be seeped away. For those who don't use a buzz ring or deco-rings so that end grain to end grain will occur then these tests would certainly be of help. My comment was made as most wood workers and cue builders have understood this reaction, and have taken steps to avert this situation for many years.

Dick
 
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Great info. Saves me a lot of time and testing. I've been lurking here for quite sometime and I have learned a lot of additional info. Thank for the heads up:thumbup:
 
rhncue said:
I believe you missed my point. My criticism was that few knowledgeable cue makers glue two pieces of end grain together, at any time. With the use of a tenon, threaded or not, the joint may not come apart but you still can have problems in this area as the parts that are end grain can become unglued creating a buzz. There is almost always a more solid piece in between so that you don't have both sides of the joint drawing off the glue making for a dry joint. Most use a buzz ring or something similar so that only one side is weeping the glue away until the glue dries. I believe that if you had put a phenolic ring in between your two pieces of end grain you would have found that the slower setting glues would have been superior in strength to the faster setting epoxy which faired better in your tests as it had set up before more of it could be seeped away. For those who don't use a buzz ring or deco-rings so that end grain to end grain will occur then these tests would certainly be of help. My comment was made as most wood workers and cue builders have understood this reaction, and have taken steps to avert this situation for many years.

Dick
Click to expand...


I didn't miss your point. I didn't read it as criticism and my post wasn't meant to sound defensive. I ready everything people posted and will use the info on my next test.


I was testing what glue sticks best to the end grain. I also wanted to know if the glues had equal adhesion on Cocobolo and Maple.
Years of looking at cues I've found this area to be the most common for failure. The tenon is fine but the cue shows signs of separation of the end grain or rings.
I want better adhesion in that area.

On future testing I will test the adhesion to different materials. I don't want to test the strength of a tenon. I want to figure out what glue hold the best on the flat surfaces of a glued joint.
I learned lots doing this test and find more testing will help build a better product.
 
[
On future testing I will test the adhesion to different materials. I don't want to test the strength of a tenon. I want to figure out what glue hold the best on the flat surfaces of a glued joint.
I learned lots doing this test and find more testing will help build a better product.[/QUOTE]


With the advancement of adhesives, do you think it is possible to eliminate the "buzz ring" that has been a standard for 40+ years? There may already be an adhesive out there that makes the buzz ring obsolete. Keep looking, there is something out there.
 
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