liljon said:
Sigh......
Russ
i hate to start threads like bernie but
- Thread starter john schmidt
- Start date
Sigh......
Russ
liljon said:
I respect your point of view John. I've heard only good things about you. Good luck to you both on and off the IPT. This is one time, I'll be happy if I'm proven wrong. I have always tried to look out for the poolplayers, because they are my friends for the most part.
I believe in this sport and always have. I do not like to see anyone or anybody get exploited. Maybe because I have been around so long and have seen so much, this is an issue that raises my hackles. If a promoter announces an event and the poolplayers come and play in it, I expect to see him pay off. That's my bottom line. All the explanations and protestations in the world will not change that.
I too, want to see the pro players have a good life and be respected for their skills. That is why I will lend my support to anything that I consider positive for Pool. And I did so initially with the IPT. At this point in time, nearly seven weeks after the "World Open", I am no longer a supporter of the IPT and Mr. KT. I've had a good look at his act and it is a bad one.
Sometimes John a flashy front is just that, a front. When it looks too good to be true, it usually is. That may be the case here. E-mails aside, it is the follow thru that counts.
It sure is nice to here you players speak your opinions.liljon said:
Many people come in here and claim "they speak for the players"
In fact all they really want is to bash Kevin Trudeau!! (you know who you are)
I think the IPT has a good chance of being a great success.
It's a good thing that there are possitive people like KT who are willing to take risks like this.
If KT is willing risk his money,time and energy on the IPT, I for one have no problem risking a little faith.
cheesemouse said:Gabesmom knows her baby and I'm bring her post up to the top of this pile so you have a chance to read it again. She has stated the gestalt of the championship pool players mind nicely. All of these top players have seen this situation many times over in the long rough road they traveled to excellence. They realize that the sum of the parts of the IPT could be more than the sum of its parts. It is worth their patients, composure, and their support until the action has run its course. The IPT has reached for the stars and it ain't over till it's over. The gestalt of the pool players mind has them in a good space to deal with this rough road situation. Hang tough guys, the sugar daddy may pull this off......to your benefit...only time will tell. My best wishes to all the pros that post and read here at the AZ.
Keep in mind that if, and a big if it could be, the IPT does get over that tipping point of viability you players that hung tough will have a great feeling in your guts and a great place to show your speed.....and if it all goes to hell in a hand basket you'll all just have to go back to hauling them bags of sand......I have my fingers crossed for a good out come to this bump in the road.
P.S. Way to go John.......
You know she sounds like a really nice lady but she I am sorry to say is very misguided. Essentially what she is saying is it is OK for a guy who is supposedly worth millions to now ask the players who are for the most part poor to leave their money in the pot and now basically provide the financing for the tour. She is also willing to, if it comes to that, just accept the players being for lack of a better term, "ripped of " because that is what happens to pool players.
If someone gets sick that is bad luck. When a storm floods your car and you lose it that is an act of God. When you get the short end of a business deal, which this is, it is usually orchestrated by someone who puts their interest ahead of yours, it is not bad luck or an accident. You don't do business in a boat without a rudder and just have the attitude, "Oh well what ever happens I will have to live with it". When someone who has an obligation to you isn't living up to their obligation you demand they do. I am completely mystified by the attitude or the players who don't even care apparently.
I can tell you right now, I bet they will settle for what ever KT decides to offer should he decide to offer anything. I guarantee he has the line on this bunch and now knows there is no reason to pay them if he doesn't want to, they are used to it and will write it off. This is really a sad situation. I am an Operating Engineer I used to run cranes. Although I haven't worked at it in like 30 years I think I still have a book. When I joined the union and attended meetings in a short time I was shocked at what was happening and no one ever spoke up. We had one leader who was stealing millions and everybody knew it and they just looked the other way. Money was taken out our pay for a vacation fund that disappeared.
They took 2% from the checks for what was to be a new union hall a ten story building that would have office space and be really nice. That fund turned out to be empty. The head guy ended up in prison but that was for an involvement in a murder and that is when all the missing money came to light. The point of my story is that the union members just were oblivious and didn't even care. Before they were running heavy equipment making more money then they ever made in their lives they were in Georgia or someplace sitting behind a tractor plowing a field. These were not very sophisticated people and easily taken advantage by a sharp guys like these union leaders. They had the perfect crowd of dopes who never ask any questions.
I'm not saying pool players are dopes but for sure KT has picked the right audience for his BS. He can do anything he wants and they will just cower and take it, he knows that now if he didn't before. I hope you'll get paid, but I can tell many of the players won't do a thing to protect themselves. If they get paid it will be completely up to KT and I very seriously think it will not be even close to what is owed, why should he if he is reading this board. This is sad.
I never meant "they should leave their money in the pot", or just live with whatever happens. I'm sure if it doesn't work out, everyone will determine their own way of handling it. That's what I meant when I said that everyone involved - not just the players - will suffer (or reap) their consequences - of their actions.macguy said:
That's just a spiritual law that I believe in.
"The power of faith is never recognized if it is placed in sin. But it is always recognized if it is placed in love."
It bothers me to read so much negativity and sometimes viciousness towards people on the posts about this ordeal. Yes, the money and business arrangements are important, but it should be kept within that realm, which can be civily handled, (or perhaps by God himself if anyone were to choose to just turn it over to him!) without all of the bashing.
What comes to my mind is 'those without sin cast the first stone'. Well, the words of stones have really been flying here by alot of people that so often seem to have such comrardary. It's just bothered me. But I'm just gabemom.
gabesmom said:
You know the kind hard nosed guy I am it's difficult for me to really say what I think to you, you sound so sweet. I just think you are not dealing with people who share your same values and you have to use caution and not be a victim, there is no pride in that. I sincerely hope nothing I have written in the past has caused you any distress I would never want to do anything like that.
I wish the best to all the players and want to see them get what they have coming with the least problems, but it seems Mr. Trudeau may not be as nice as you wish he would be. Sometimes that is just an unfortunate truth. Thank you for your polite post, I know I am one of the least liked people on here. Good Luck.
gabesmom said:
Like you, I believe in Karma. People ulimately get what they deserve. But there is a reason we have laws and courts to enforce them. They are designed to protect innocent people from unscrupulous ones. I believe that if someone has wronged someone else, they should be held accountable. Otherwise we give them permission to continue this behavior and wrong others.
If it is determined that Trudeau has done wrong in his dealings with the poolplayers, then he should be held accountable. The fact that he invested money and paid out prize money does not absolve him here. To argue this is analogous to saying that a previously honest banker who decides to embezzle money, should be allowed to get off because of his prior honest dealings.
This won't fly in any court and it shouldn't. Like all of you, I'm not free of sin, but I have paid dearly for my misdeeds, and learned some good lessons along the way. Maybe Mr. KT has a few lessons to learn as well. He obviously is still doing harm to many people, the poolplayers among them at this time.
If KT wasn't sure about how much more he can get away with, after reading some of the "KT has been wonderful to me" testimonials, he now knows for sure that he has, at least, one more free pass.
What some are completely forgetting, is that there is a vast difference between "acting in good faith" and "acting with malicious intent", while unforseen circumstances are excusable with the prior, they are not "unforseen" with the latter and are not excusable.
And, although I do not know this for a fact, it certainly appears that the Reno event was held with the prior knowledge that prize monies would not be made.
IPT players, please do yourselves a large favor, save you IPT praises until after you are paid.
Best of luck to you all.
Jim
What some are completely forgetting, is that there is a vast difference between "acting in good faith" and "acting with malicious intent", while unforseen circumstances are excusable with the prior, they are not "unforseen" with the latter and are not excusable.
And, although I do not know this for a fact, it certainly appears that the Reno event was held with the prior knowledge that prize monies would not be made.
IPT players, please do yourselves a large favor, save you IPT praises until after you are paid.
Best of luck to you all.
Jim
GABESMOM...<<One time I know of, Gabe even lost a lot himself, took him awhile to pay that off, but the opponent knew he was good for it.>>
Hello Gabe's Mom. Let me first congratulate you on your thoughtful and heartfelt post. Also, please know that I am a BIG fan of Gabe's and wish him nothing but the best.
Having said that, let me comment on that portion of your post that I quoted above. While I don't know Gabe personally, I would imagine that the reason that people let him slide for a while on paying up was due to his reputation for trustworthiness and the fact that he never lied about the payment.
In my view, that is the CENTRAL issue regarding the IPT. Not that the payments are late or whether the IPT has failed or may fail or may not fail.
The issue in the minds of the majority here...IN MY PERSONAL OPINION...is that so many lies have been told...some of which have even been admitted to by Deno.
Few here, in my opinion, are condemning failure (or potential failure) in and of itself because we have ALL failed. But telling a series of bald faced lies is what has so many people upset.
I'm sure you raised Gabe not to lie and told him that his punishment would be much more severe if he did. But KT's whole adult life has been marked by a series of criminal acts...credit card fraud for which he was imprisoned and which he later went on record as writing off to "the exhuberance of youth... and rulings of false advertising by the Federal Trade Commission.
Then, rather than telling the truth about the circumstances surrounding the Reno non-payments he causes one lie to follow another. So, the people complaining here have no reason to believe that KT will be "good for it" as they knew Gabe was. In fact, they have MANY reasons to believe that KT will NOT be good for it.
Please accept these comments in the great respect in which they are intended.
Regards,
Jim
Hello Gabe's Mom. Let me first congratulate you on your thoughtful and heartfelt post. Also, please know that I am a BIG fan of Gabe's and wish him nothing but the best.
Having said that, let me comment on that portion of your post that I quoted above. While I don't know Gabe personally, I would imagine that the reason that people let him slide for a while on paying up was due to his reputation for trustworthiness and the fact that he never lied about the payment.
In my view, that is the CENTRAL issue regarding the IPT. Not that the payments are late or whether the IPT has failed or may fail or may not fail.
The issue in the minds of the majority here...IN MY PERSONAL OPINION...is that so many lies have been told...some of which have even been admitted to by Deno.
Few here, in my opinion, are condemning failure (or potential failure) in and of itself because we have ALL failed. But telling a series of bald faced lies is what has so many people upset.
I'm sure you raised Gabe not to lie and told him that his punishment would be much more severe if he did. But KT's whole adult life has been marked by a series of criminal acts...credit card fraud for which he was imprisoned and which he later went on record as writing off to "the exhuberance of youth... and rulings of false advertising by the Federal Trade Commission.
Then, rather than telling the truth about the circumstances surrounding the Reno non-payments he causes one lie to follow another. So, the people complaining here have no reason to believe that KT will be "good for it" as they knew Gabe was. In fact, they have MANY reasons to believe that KT will NOT be good for it.
Please accept these comments in the great respect in which they are intended.
Regards,
Jim
A small clarification...
Jay, she's a Christian. She doesn't believe in Karma. She believes in the grace of God.
jay helfert said:
Jay, she's a Christian. She doesn't believe in Karma. She believes in the grace of God.
Purdman said:Here you go again macguy! The guy has a right to his own opinion. I don't agree with him but it is his right. You do not need to follow him around and insult him like you did for posting for a stake horse in the Open. I thought you would have learned your lesson by now. Try keeping your foot away from your mouth, huh!
Purdman
Well now..Isn't this "the pot calling the kettle black???" You unleashed a barrage of PERSONAL attacks on me for saying the EXACT same thing that John has said....Yet here you are defending his right to say them and telling someone else that they had NO RIGHT to insult him. Will you stand by your word and state publicly that you were wrong for attacking me?
Geeze it's late.
I thought I'd try to get caught up with things here first by saying the folks here who are advocating some sort of immediate legal action by the players have obviously never had any experience in these matters.
Yes, I have been invloved in uglier situations than the one the players are in. There is no reason for the players to panic over their legal situation. KT has not denied that the IPT owes the players money and no judge would possibly rule otherwise. There are certain notices and procedures for debt collection that vary from state to state, but no one is going to completely lose their rights to collect within years, let alone before the Chicago tournament, no matter what they do or do not do. In the best of circumstances, legal action would take two years to collect and if your lucky, you will get 2/3 of what the original amount should have been when you subtract legal fees.
The players shouldn't take mine or anyone else's here word on this. All they need to do is call an attorney in the Yellow Pages in their home state or country, and talk to them on the phone for a couple minutes to see if their sevices are needed. Don't be satisfied with the first answer and if the attorney asks for payment for the advice over the phone, hang up and call someone else. A good attorney would rather give you quick, straightup advice at no cost, than to waste everyones time when he or she is not needed.
Again, if there are any players, or over obsessed forum addicts reading this who have their own curiosity to satisfy, just tell the attorney you're not sure if you need an attorney, but this is my situation. Ask them what experience they have in situations relating to your matter. Believe me, you will know when you are talking to the right person.
There's no reason to panic, but there is a reason to educate yourself in these matters, albeit an unneccessary one, as it usually is.
Bottom line is that you get more money when you figure out a way to get paid without an attorney's help. If someone here wants to claim otherwise then I'm all ears. I want to hear your multiple experiences with this.
I thought I'd try to get caught up with things here first by saying the folks here who are advocating some sort of immediate legal action by the players have obviously never had any experience in these matters.
Yes, I have been invloved in uglier situations than the one the players are in. There is no reason for the players to panic over their legal situation. KT has not denied that the IPT owes the players money and no judge would possibly rule otherwise. There are certain notices and procedures for debt collection that vary from state to state, but no one is going to completely lose their rights to collect within years, let alone before the Chicago tournament, no matter what they do or do not do. In the best of circumstances, legal action would take two years to collect and if your lucky, you will get 2/3 of what the original amount should have been when you subtract legal fees.
The players shouldn't take mine or anyone else's here word on this. All they need to do is call an attorney in the Yellow Pages in their home state or country, and talk to them on the phone for a couple minutes to see if their sevices are needed. Don't be satisfied with the first answer and if the attorney asks for payment for the advice over the phone, hang up and call someone else. A good attorney would rather give you quick, straightup advice at no cost, than to waste everyones time when he or she is not needed.
Again, if there are any players, or over obsessed forum addicts reading this who have their own curiosity to satisfy, just tell the attorney you're not sure if you need an attorney, but this is my situation. Ask them what experience they have in situations relating to your matter. Believe me, you will know when you are talking to the right person.
There's no reason to panic, but there is a reason to educate yourself in these matters, albeit an unneccessary one, as it usually is.
Bottom line is that you get more money when you figure out a way to get paid without an attorney's help. If someone here wants to claim otherwise then I'm all ears. I want to hear your multiple experiences with this.
If the players who are owed money don't believe KT is obligated to pay up, then perhaps he isn't. Personally, I'd already be seeking payment through legal avenues but, since I'm not the one owed money, my opinion is worth about as much as 1st place in the IPT's last event. 
Opinion
Gabe is 6'3" (yes, I know he seems taller) but I don't think he would lie to me about his own height.
Jumping into legal litigation would not be beneficial unless you were owed $10,000 or more because attorneys get 30-40% of the money plus there are court costs, etc.., and since the attorneys would not be guaranteed to get their money from KT, it could be, at the minimum, a risky venture, unless it was a class action suit brought forth by many (not just 4-5) players. That's the facts of legal life folks. This, at this point in time, would not be a good bet for the players, IMO.
Like it was mentioned, players of CJ's ability most likely had stakehorses for the qualifiers and most of their expenses. That is the chance that stakeholders take when they agree to put up money, and most usually have plenty more where that came from.
All businesses go through snags, problems, and processes they did not count on in the startup of a business, that's why the failure rate for new businesses is so high. Granted, KT doesn't have the best track record, but I still don't think I would spend millions of my own money on something that I didn't feel good about, or believed in. He isn't dumb, and I am sure he is aware of the damage to hisself that would come about if he was not sincere in his efforts to have a viable professional tour. Poolplayers are notorious for being vindictive. No, I don't have rose colored glasses on, I am just exercising a little more patience because this tour is the best thing to hit the Pool world since I have been playing, and I want this for all the players and fans alike.
These players aren't going through something they haven't experienced before on a different scale, perhaps, but they have still had similiar experiences. Poolplayers are adaptable, they learn to adapt to many types of situations because it is the Nature of the Beast, and they know that. Everyone will learn from this situation, and perhaps, adjustments can be made where things can be better in the future.
Some of you posters make it sound like they are children that have been abused, when in reality, they are grown experienced adults that have a brain in their heads, and can make their own decisions about their lives.
And they will, because they are the ones that live with those decisions.
Gabe is 6'3" (yes, I know he seems taller) but I don't think he would lie to me about his own height.
Jumping into legal litigation would not be beneficial unless you were owed $10,000 or more because attorneys get 30-40% of the money plus there are court costs, etc.., and since the attorneys would not be guaranteed to get their money from KT, it could be, at the minimum, a risky venture, unless it was a class action suit brought forth by many (not just 4-5) players. That's the facts of legal life folks. This, at this point in time, would not be a good bet for the players, IMO.
Like it was mentioned, players of CJ's ability most likely had stakehorses for the qualifiers and most of their expenses. That is the chance that stakeholders take when they agree to put up money, and most usually have plenty more where that came from.
All businesses go through snags, problems, and processes they did not count on in the startup of a business, that's why the failure rate for new businesses is so high. Granted, KT doesn't have the best track record, but I still don't think I would spend millions of my own money on something that I didn't feel good about, or believed in. He isn't dumb, and I am sure he is aware of the damage to hisself that would come about if he was not sincere in his efforts to have a viable professional tour. Poolplayers are notorious for being vindictive. No, I don't have rose colored glasses on, I am just exercising a little more patience because this tour is the best thing to hit the Pool world since I have been playing, and I want this for all the players and fans alike.
These players aren't going through something they haven't experienced before on a different scale, perhaps, but they have still had similiar experiences. Poolplayers are adaptable, they learn to adapt to many types of situations because it is the Nature of the Beast, and they know that. Everyone will learn from this situation, and perhaps, adjustments can be made where things can be better in the future.
Some of you posters make it sound like they are children that have been abused, when in reality, they are grown experienced adults that have a brain in their heads, and can make their own decisions about their lives.
And they will, because they are the ones that live with those decisions.
Sure, some people may think KT may not be 'good for it'. And who knows, maybe he won't. But it sounds as if maybe he will be. He was very good for the first two. That's all I'm saying. And yes, he does have skeletons, but don't we all in some form or another. Just not put on public display as some of KT's.av84fun said:
The players did their part. They've played their hearts out in these IPT's, they played by the rules, and it shows on the tv shows. I think many of them are being very classy and of course cautious, and some may have discovered their legal positions, etc.
Either way, the rubber will be meeting the road within next few weeks.
It's just all the bashing, accusing, foreboding, etc. on AZB that is upsetting to me. (I need to stay away!
)It often takes a crisis for people to really find out other's true motivations and intentions, and there are usually many blessings that can come out of those crisis. I'm sure that will hold true here, no matter how it all falls into place. But I can't help but to try to have faith in positive results, no matter how it turns out.
I appreciate everyone's responses to my posts. It's an emotionally charged subject considering everyone involved, and I just couldn't hold it in any longer!
But hey, just turn on the news, and there are people with much worse problems than this. Everyone will get through this one way or another, and like I said, I believe most of the players I know of are a real class act, and based on their individual decisions for themselves, more blessings may befall them one way or another.
Yeah I've read what a 'hard-nosed guy' you really are!So please be nice to at least me.macguy said:
I agree with you that you need to be cautious. But no matter how cautious one is, don't we all fall victim at times? It's how we handle it. I was just trying to explain how even Gabe fell victim at times, and had victims at times, and sometimes alot of good came from both instances. I'm sure some of them didn't.
Like I said on another post, things will be shaking out soon won't they? And however it turns out, alot will be learned for the future of the players and pool in general.
I enjoy reading all the posts to stay abreast of things, just sometimes it gets a bit too rough for me to handle.
Thanks macguy!
