I think Predator needs to go back into the laboratory on their new cloth.

dnschmidt

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Fast cloth is OK. In fact Simonis 860 is the reason pro pool is played the way pro pool is played which is mostly with follow whereas with the Mali cloth it was mostly with draw. However, this new Predator cloth is crazy fast and when the best players in the world all have trouble adjusting to it that's an indication that something isn't right.

What's special about the Predator rack. It's just a fucking triangle. Aren't all non-template racks triangles? I find this debate interesting. Pool is a mathematical game. To me a perfect rack is part of what makes it a perfect game and that's what apparently the better template racks achieve. Now the downside to that is that the better players have figured out how to wire a perfect rack thus the call to use an imperfect triangle. I wonder how Mark G. feels about this since CSI invented the Magic Rack with the idea being faster racking and racking perfection. I'm not that concerned about the triangle vs. Magic Rack discussion but this cloth is too damn fast.
 

MitchAlsup

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Fast cloth is OK. In fact Simonis 860 is the reason pro pool is played the way pro pool is played which is mostly with follow whereas with the Mali cloth it was mostly with draw. However, this new Predator cloth is crazy fast and when the best players in the world all have trouble adjusting to it that's an indication that something isn't right.
Perhaps the indication you should receive is that 860 is still too slow.

I, personally, practice on 760 so that I learn delicacy. When I go out to play, I have no problem adding power to my stroke, but I find others have problems adding delicacy to theirs.
 

smoochie

NotLikeThis
I don’t know if it’s the cloth or the table but these equipment are accepting shots like there’s no tomorrow!!!! The players shooting the shot wrong and yet it goes in! Something is really weird I was about to make new thread about this but come on even the 90s old crown big pockets did not accept shots like these

This attached photo if you would go to the match and look at it. I don’t know how this is ok to go in. He hit it so wrong not even on the first diamond. And not even pocket speed. And not even that the 7ball is near the rails cause it’s a little bit out. This shot needs to go clean. If pocket accepts this as it did then something is wrong in the sport. Please guys stop making our game look silly. I feel they make it like this so that everybody can run out ?? Only do ok position
 

Attachments

  • D0598B91-6CF5-464A-B146-E5EEA48F103E.jpeg
    D0598B91-6CF5-464A-B146-E5EEA48F103E.jpeg
    78.4 KB · Views: 370

mikemosconi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Wherever there is a sport/game where a surface is involved there seems to be a never ending discussion as to varying surface conditions. In golf it is usually the varying speed of the greens. In bowling it is the lane conditions. In tennis we have the courts. Here, with pool we have the tables and everything that is associated- cloth, rails, pockets, balls, now it seems even chalk.

Personally my favorite game is 14.1. I never enjoyed the game as much as when I played it over 40 years ago on a Gold Crown 1 with standard GC 4 7/8 corner pockets and high quality worsted cloth. I could control my speed and pocket balls and truly feel like I had some control of the table, even though I was just a part time player with a full time job and all the reponsibilities of a family, a house, etc.

I think that Brunswick had an idea, post 1961, that somehow the game should be made available to the masses for ENJOYMENT as the number one objective. Something that could be sustainable as a family recreational outlet for all generations to come forward. They produced equipment to meet that goal.

Somehow, along the way, I don't honestly know why; some people decided and also dictated that basic billiard room equipment should be so challenging in speed and ball pocketing that it would take almost full time dedication in order to achieve an even reasonable level of proficiency to actually enjoy playing the game. So we got super fast cloth, super fast rails, smaller pockets with deeper shelves, and more elastic balls.

I know, a lot of folks on here will say they love it, they need the challenge, the game ( 9 ball) was too easy ( for the pros). Great for all of you. I hope you are all very happy now - our pool rooms are mostly gone, very few young people in America dedicate any reasonable time to the game, older folks who played a lot in the 60s and 70s find the equipment way too challenging today and not fun at all, we here in America are losing the game for many reasons, of course - I will guarantee you the continued proliferation of pro cut pocket Diamond speed tables with super fast cloth will be a death call to this sport.

So to the OP here, I say, why are you surprised? This has been evolving in pool for the last 40 years. In a society that has evolved more and more to instant gratification; the pool equipment geniuses have created equipment for the masses that does just the polar opposite.

I say make the equipment more user friendly to the masses and create competitive games for the pros that have little to do with break shots . Pool can never be successful by trying to push the game from the very best players down to the masses. You need to bring the masses to the game first, as a sense of enjoyment, an outlet, recreation - and that means less challenging equipment.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
... What's special about the Predator rack....
The top surface has room for logos.
... Aren't all non-template racks triangles? ...
No. There are special (wooden/plastic) racks for 7 ball and 9 ball that are not triangles. Nobody uses them much but they exist.
... This attached photo if you would go to the match and look at it. I don’t know how this is ok to go in. ...
It is possible to post links to videos here. Basically you just cut and paste the URL from your browser while viewing the video. Here's the video -- go to 1:41:30 for the shot.


Well, the pockets are accepting. Sort of like the 5-inch pockets of the 1960s but not quite as grand. It probably helps that it is really dry in Las Vegas which allows more balls to slide in. I think the camera angle also made the shot look harder.
 

Nyquil

Active member
I have simonis 860hr on my 9ft'er. I wouldn't want anything faster than what I currently have. I don't live in a really humid climate however. I think it plays just right. I have heard this reserve cloth by predator plays faster than the 860hr but I don't know if that's true or not haven't played on it....
 

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Fast cloth is OK. In fact Simonis 860 is the reason pro pool is played the way pro pool is played which is mostly with follow whereas with the Mali cloth it was mostly with draw. However, this new Predator cloth is crazy fast and when the best players in the world all have trouble adjusting to it that's an indication that something isn't right.

What's special about the Predator rack. It's just a fucking triangle. Aren't all non-template racks triangles? I find this debate interesting. Pool is a mathematical game. To me a perfect rack is part of what makes it a perfect game and that's what apparently the better template racks achieve. Now the downside to that is that the better players have figured out how to wire a perfect rack thus the call to use an imperfect triangle. I wonder how Mark G. feels about this since CSI invented the Magic Rack with the idea being faster racking and racking perfection. I'm not that concerned about the triangle vs. Magic Rack discussion but this cloth is too damn fast.
Your post is full of holes. What if it’s the extra bounce on the Diamond rails, not the new cloth? CSI did not invent the magic ball rack. It was a Japanese company 10 years prior. CSI became the USA distributor, and/or copied it.

edit: and if we counted shots, I’d bet there are more draw shots than follow in today’s game.
 

Thunder Thighs

learning daily...
Silver Member
So bizarre. See the post below that I made on Azb im 1961 about simonis 860

#1F ast cloth is OK. Bit the new simonis cloth is crazy fast and when the best players in the world all have trouble adjusting to it that's an indication that something isn't right.
You posted on AZB in 1961?
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
You posted on AZB in 1961?
I think it's called either precocious or psychosis. The jury is out. Of it's mind.
... CSI did not invent the magic ball rack. It was a Japanese company 10 years prior. ...
Here is the last paragraph of my July 2001 article in Billiards Digest:

If you would like to see what a very tight rack at 9 ball plays like, send me email (jewett@-----.com) and I will send back a "PRN" attachment that will let you make your own racking template. You will need a computer printer and a paper-hole punch.
I'm not claiming to be the first inventor, but I made my first racking template a long time ago. Like 1980.
 

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think it's called either precocious or psychosis. The jury is out. Of it's mind.

Here is the last paragraph of my July 2001 article in Billiards Digest:

If you would like to see what a very tight rack at 9 ball plays like, send me email (jewett@-----.com) and I will send back a "PRN" attachment that will let you make your own racking template. You will need a computer printer and a paper-hole punch.
I'm not claiming to be the first inventor, but I made my first racking template a long time ago. Like 1980.

Right. But did yours have the diamond shape cutouts oriented in a specific direction. I am about 90% sure that was the innovation from Magic Ball Rack brand out of Japan in the early 2000's. That was then subsequently copied by everyone. Those diamond cutouts formed ramps that the balls rolled down to lean against the ball's neighbors. I don't know if CSI partnered with them as a distributor, or copied them. I do vaguely recall a post from a Japanese fellow many years ago on here claiming other companies copied his design.
 

ctyhntr

RIP Kelly
Silver Member
You posted on AZB in 1961?
If AZB was around back in 1961, it would likely have the same rants and complaints. I can imagine posts such as Brunswick Gold Crown is too expensive, wouldn't sell, it doesn't look traditional and would ruin the game. Debating whether Willie Mosconi's 526 on a 8 foot table is legitimate, when others (unwitnessed from beginning to end of course) claimed high runs. Better yet, why isn't Willie on AZB 1961 explaining himself to the complainers about that new fangled and unrealistic movie The Hustler. :)
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
... But did yours have the diamond shape cutouts oriented in a specific direction....Those diamond cutouts formed ramps that the balls rolled down to lean against the ball's neighbors. ...
No, but, round holes will cause the balls to lean against each other if the balls are the right size and in the right locations. The shaped holes probably work better if used for both new balls and worn, small balls. My solution was to make sets of templates for 57-, 56-, 55-mm balls. I discovered early on that 57-mm spacing usually wouldn't work.
 

fastone371

Certifiable
Silver Member
So bizarre. See the post below that I made on Azb im 1961 about simonis 860

#1F ast cloth is OK. Bit the new simonis cloth is crazy fast and when the best players in the world all have trouble adjusting to it that's an indication that something isn't right.
I remember that now!!!!! But I think it was 1962 not 1961. :ROFLMAO:
 

fastone371

Certifiable
Silver Member
Your post is full of holes. What if it’s the extra bounce on the Diamond rails, not the new cloth? CSI did not invent the magic ball rack. It was a Japanese company 10 years prior. CSI became the USA distributor, and/or copied it.

edit: and if we counted shots, I’d bet there are more draw shots than follow in today’s game.
Usually slow cloth will make the rails look dead not look extra lively. I dont think you would notice extra lively rails on slow cloth.
 

BasementDweller

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I could be wrong and I sort of plan on looking into this more BUT at least for all the old televised matches I've watched, the tables all played plenty fast. So much so, that I think the table speed discussion has exaggerated over the years. Now in 1960, in a smokey pool room with old worn cloth, things were probably slower. But Gold Crowns have been around for 60+ years and those rails have always been lively.

For table speed, the play of the rails has more to do with the overall speed than the cloth in my opinion and this is what some of the older Diamond tables had wrong. The more modern Diamonds play fine speed wise as far as I'm concerned.

It would be cool if someone not named BasementDweller could analyze old footage and figure out a way to calculate the table speed.
 

Poolplaya9

Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
I could be wrong and I sort of plan on looking into this more BUT at least for all the old televised matches I've watched, the tables all played plenty fast. So much so, that I think the table speed discussion has exaggerated over the years.
Agreed. While the pool tables of 50+ years ago were for sure slower on average, the amount by which they were slower, at least in the bigger events, is hugely exaggerated by most and there isn't near the difference that many believe.
 
Top