Ideal cloth/speed for 9' tables - 9 ball

DirtyHarry

Registered
I have been playing 9 ball for decades. My table, including most others have always been fitted with 760 Simonis. I recently moved from the US to Europe....and most of the American tables here have 860. I know that Simonis states that 860 was made more for 9 ball, but for the life of me.....I'm having an extremely difficult time playing on 860. Question ball control is gone, I can't properly measure English, masses, etc. It's like starting the game over. Do most American tables here in Europe use 860? The stuff is soooo slow.




Harry
 
In my experience, all American tables with simonis have 860. I can't say that I'm sure I've ever seen a 760, though I am sure they exist.
 
I have been playing 9 ball for decades. My table, including most others have always been fitted with 760 Simonis. I recently moved from the US to Europe....and most of the American tables here have 860. I know that Simonis states that 860 was made more for 9 ball, but for the life of me.....I'm having an extremely difficult time playing on 860. Question ball control is gone, I can't properly measure English, masses, etc. It's like starting the game over. Do most American tables here in Europe use 860? The stuff is soooo slow.




Harry
You'll never get a consensus on this - everyone has a different preference when it comes to cloth speed as well as cushion speed. For my taste, I love a fast table which is why we are currently using Andy Pro cloth on our tables with Artemis cushions.
 
to be good at anything you need to adapt to the conditions you are in. if you cant then that is a good indicator of your ability.
 
760 is way too fast for any pool game.

760 is probably the correct speed for 3 cushion tables only.

Just my opinion of course.

I have 860 HR on my gold crown 4 and love it.

Thanks

Kevin
 
760 is way too fast for any pool game.

760 is probably the correct speed for 3 cushion tables only.

Just my opinion of course.

I have 860 HR on my gold crown 4 and love it.

Thanks

Kevin

760 is actuallyba snooker cloth and can't even come close to the speed of the Simonis 300 billiards cloth...LOL
 
I have been playing 9 ball for decades. My table, including most others have always been fitted with 760 Simonis. I recently moved from the US to Europe....and most of the American tables here have 860. I know that Simonis states that 860 was made more for 9 ball, but for the life of me.....I'm having an extremely difficult time playing on 860. Question ball control is gone, I can't properly measure English, masses, etc. It's like starting the game over. Do most American tables here in Europe use 860? The stuff is soooo slow.




Harry
Sorry to be the one to inform you, but the 860 sold in Europe is not the same as the 860 sold in the United States.
 
I played for 20 years on 760 tables recovered twice per yer in a player's room in Philly. All the players there loved the cloth. The owner tried 860 one year, and the players all hated it. Note, this was in a humid room, and the 860 played a lot slower than other rooms in the area that had 860.

On my home table in Atlanta, I have 860. I like it a lot.

When I go back to the Philly room a few times per year, I have absolutely no issues playing on the 760 there.

YMMV:)
 
760 is actuallyba snooker cloth and can't even come close to the speed of the Simonis 300 billiards cloth...LOL

Another room I grew up in in Philly, tried to put 760 on a 3 cushion table to save money. Holly devil! It was horrible! Slow as molasses!

Glen, do you know the history of 760? You've given us the history of 860 a few times, but I don't recall you mentioning with great detail the 760 history. Do you know when 760 was developed? You mention it was for snooker in this thread, but I was under the impression all the straight pool players used it on pocket billiard tables in the 70's 80's 90's before 860 took over. And the legit snooker tables I've seen in Germany at one player's room all had thick napped cloth, and a hot clothes iron by the bed. Nothing like the 760 in the Philly room I grew up in. Thanks for the info.
 
Another room I grew up in in Philly, tried to put 760 on a 3 cushion table to save money. Holly devil! It was horrible! Slow as molasses!

Glen, do you know the history of 760? You've given us the history of 860 a few times, but I don't recall you mentioning with great detail the 760 history. Do you know when 760 was developed? You mention it was for snooker in this thread, but I was under the impression all the straight pool players used it on pocket billiard tables in the 70's 80's 90's before 860 took over. And the legit snooker tables I've seen in Germany at one player's room all had thick napped cloth, and a hot clothes iron by the bed. Nothing like the 760 in the Philly room I grew up in. Thanks for the info.

When i started working on pool tables back in the early 80's there was no Simonis cloth on any pool tables, i had never even heard of it. From the 50' through the mid 80's the best playing cloth there ever was, was the Stevens 22oz superweave, all tournaments were played on it, Brunswick sold it under a different name, of which i can't remember for the life of me. To this day, i still believe it was the best playing cloth to ever be installed on a pool table. Balls skidding was like the chance odds of seeing a volcano eruption live, unless the cloth was dirty as hell, or completly worn out. When the Mali cloth company bought the Stevens mill out, then changed the weave, the new weave was changed to be just like all the other Mali cloths, of which i refused to install on pool tables if i myself wouldn't play on it. So, one time recovering a 6'×12' snooker table at the 211 club in Seattle, the owner John, gave me a cloth to install in the table, of which I'd never seen before, Simonis 760 snooker cloth!! I think that was around 85' or so. I was so impressed with how it rolled, and the speed of the cloth, i thought to myself...this cloth could replace the Stevens cloth....oh hell yeah!! So, i started installing the 760 on bar tables in my area to begin with, then, next thing you know, my accounts grew to 328 bars and a 1,000+ tables a year getting Simonis 760 installed. The only drawback was the burn marks predominantly showing up on the tables. Then, everyone started having it installed, and even though it marked up, it was better than the alternative of having to play on Mali cloth. Next thing you know, Granito cloth was introduced to the market place as a cloth that played great, like the 760, but didn't show the break lines, only problem was, after XX amount of hours of usage, it started to develop tears in the cloth going across the table in the ghost rack wear behind the rack area on the table. Then along came Championship with their 3030 cloth that played like I'd installed a canvas material on the slate, got faster and faster as it wore, BUT...didn't show nick marks in the cloth, and it wore like canvas too, but played like shit after it was worn out....but bar owners thought....hey, it still LOOKS ok, nope, not changing the cloth right now...SO, bar tables started playing like shit until they FINALLY changed the 3030.

So, bottom line, i don't know the history of the 760, i just know it's intended use was on snooker tables....and i pioneered it on bar tables first, then pool room second. Then as fast as it came into the market place, it left just as fast, being replaced by the Simonis 860 which is another history lesson, BUT the 860 we first started with in this country was a thicker thread, 70%wool, 30% nylon descendent of the 760, and showed the break lines just as much, still a down fall of the cloth. THAT cloth is whats sold in Europe today, and is a humidity resistance cloth because of the 30% nylon in the weave. That is when Simonis changed to the 860 90%wool, 10%nylon as a way of combating the predominant break lines, but the added wool slowed down the cloth horribly in my opinion. Then, along comes the 860HR....high resistance, 70%wool 30%nylon only the dominant break lines don't show up anymore because the finishing process was changed, and now you have todays Simonis 860HR.
 
When i started working on pool tables back in the early 80's there was no Simonis cloth on any pool tables, i had never even heard of it. From the 50' through the mid 80's the best playing cloth there ever was, was the Stevens 22oz superweave, all tournaments were played on it, Brunswick sold it under a different name, of which i can't remember for the life of me. To this day, i still believe it was the best playing cloth to ever be installed on a pool table. Balls skidding was like the chance odds of seeing a volcano eruption live, unless the cloth was dirty as hell, or completly worn out. When the Mali cloth company bought the Stevens mill out, then changed the weave, the new weave was changed to be just like all the other Mali cloths, of which i refused to install on pool tables if i myself wouldn't play on it. So, one time recovering a 6'×12' snooker table at the 211 club in Seattle, the owner John, gave me a cloth to install in the table, of which I'd never seen before, Simonis 760 snooker cloth!! I think that was around 85' or so. I was so impressed with how it rolled, and the speed of the cloth, i thought to myself...this cloth could replace the Stevens cloth....oh hell yeah!! So, i started installing the 760 on bar tables in my area to begin with, then, next thing you know, my accounts grew to 328 bars and a 1,000+ tables a year getting Simonis 760 installed. The only drawback was the burn marks predominantly showing up on the tables. Then, everyone started having it installed, and even though it marked up, it was better than the alternative of having to play on Mali cloth. Next thing you know, Granito cloth was introduced to the market place as a cloth that played great, like the 760, but didn't show the break lines, only problem was, after XX amount of hours of usage, it started to develop tears in the cloth going across the table in the ghost rack wear behind the rack area on the table. Then along came Championship with their 3030 cloth that played like I'd installed a canvas material on the slate, got faster and faster as it wore, BUT...didn't show nick marks in the cloth, and it wore like canvas too, but played like shit after it was worn out....but bar owners thought....hey, it still LOOKS ok, nope, not changing the cloth right now...SO, bar tables started playing like shit until they FINALLY changed the 3030.

So, bottom line, i don't know the history of the 760, i just know it's intended use was on snooker tables....and i pioneered it on bar tables first, then pool room second. Then as fast as it came into the market place, it left just as fast, being replaced by the Simonis 860 which is another history lesson, BUT the 860 we first started with in this country was a thicker thread, 70%wool, 30% nylon descendent of the 760, and showed the break lines just as much, still a down fall of the cloth. THAT cloth is whats sold in Europe today, and is a humidity resistance cloth because of the 30% nylon in the weave. That is when Simonis changed to the 860 90%wool, 10%nylon as a way of combating the predominant break lines, but the added wool slowed down the cloth horribly in my opinion. Then, along comes the 860HR....high resistance, 70%wool 30%nylon only the dominant break lines don't show up anymore because the finishing process was changed, and now you have todays Simonis 860HR.

Interesting. Thanks for the info!

It would be neat if we had swatches of Simonis going back to the beginning of the company. There must have been so many variations over the hundreds of years.
 
So you're claiming that break lines do not show up on Simonis 860HR cloth? We used that cloth for many years up until the past 2 years when we switched to Andy Pro. I've yet to see a blend of worsted cloth on a table that does not show break lines - including the 860HR. Have they changed it within the past 2-3 years?
 
So you're claiming that break lines do not show up on Simonis 860HR cloth? We used that cloth for many years up until the past 2 years when we switched to Andy Pro. I've yet to see a blend of worsted cloth on a table that does not show break lines - including the 860HR. Have they changed it within the past 2-3 years?

Wbat i said was they don't show as much, as in not out of normal when compared to how they were horrible on the 760 and 860 back in the 80's, 90's and early 2000. And i don't judge cloth as to how it looks or plays when it's first installed, i judge it when it's being replaced and how long it was used. Andy cloth don't outlast 860HR, if it were the same price as 860HR it wouldn't have the sales.
 
760 is actuallyba snooker cloth and can't even come close to the speed of the Simonis 300 billiards cloth...LOL
I've played on Strachan and its nothing like 760. 760 is napless and FAST where Strachan feels heavier to the touch and its not near as fast. Its also directional. Doesn't Simonis make a snooker only, directional cloth? 4000 maybe?
 
For 9 ball on a 9 foot table, good old fashion 860.

860 HR is faster than 860, but slower then 760. It plays between 760 and 860 in my opinion. With regular 860, you can really stroke the ball and still have some control in rotation games. 760 is like playing on ice. Hard to control the ball.

Regular 860 plays like total mud in warm, humid conditions. In drier conditions or a room with good dehumidification and climate control system, it plays ok.

760 is very, very fast to play on, especially anywhere that's not very humid.

I don't think 760 is snooker cloth. I've played on a tournament grade snooker table, with tournament cloth - and it is not weaved anything like Simonis at all. It is a nap cloth.

760, is in my opinion a good cloth for 9 foot tables for straight pool. A nice tight Gold Crown with 760 and a set of centennials is a great 14.1 table. It's a good cloth to use on 10 foot pool tables which used to be more common many decades ago but are all but gone. General rule of thumb - larger the table, faster the cloth. Smaller table, slower cloth.

Carom cloth is not the same as 760. Although they are quite similar - thin, slick, smooth and fast. You can get away with using 760 on a carom table and keep things playable for newbies and bangers, but it's not perfect or right. Serious carom players will notice and will not like it. Carom players are on average, much more sensitive and observant of small differences in conditions compared to pool players. There's a reason real carom tables are heated...Also, Simonis carom cloth is fast and smooth, while being tougher than 760. 760 gets more holes in it from masse shots.

860 HR is my favorite, even though at times it can play a hair fast..it is more consistent across conditions - such as humid states vs drier ones. It's more fun to play 8 ball, one pocket, 14.1 on it than regular 860, and it isn't too fast for 9 or 10 ball. It's a great compromise, all purpose cloth with speed that works for everything.
 
I've played on Strachan and its nothing like 760. 760 is napless and FAST where Strachan feels heavier to the touch and its not near as fast. Its also directional. Doesn't Simonis make a snooker only, directional cloth? 4000 maybe?

Simonis now owns Strachan, but if you go back 30+ years, todays cloth use was NOT the same back then. No where did i mention that Simonis 760 is todays snooker cloth.
 
Gold Crown 4 860 HR .(with proper rail ht and angle) now thats 9-ball.If you rack correctly right Jason.
 
Hi Glen, can you describe the ball layout to go 9 rails? I can take a video for future reference if someone wants to test their table. When I've tried to do the 9 rails, I freeze the CB to the first rail.

And the 4.5 rails up and down table, do you hit that center ball, or a hair above center?
 
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